Ancient History wrote:
Let's put it this way: when the license expired IMR owed Topps about $150k.
Wow. To what degree is that substantiated and when was this known? If I had known (if this is the case) that CGL owed Topps that much money, then I would have been a lot more doubtful about Frank's claims that Topps would yank the licence from CGL back when this all blew up. The reason being the old adage that when you owe the bank $3,000 it's your problem, but when you owe the bank $3million, it's the banks problem.
If CGL owes that much money to Topps and if CGL looks like it would be gutted and shutdown by LLC if the licence is withdrawn, then that means there is probably someone at Topps who has to own up to losing $150k if they can't get the money out of CGL. (In business, not making money is the same as losing it). In those circumstances, of course that someone is unlikely to pull the plug on CGL. People very frequently throw good money after bad in the hope of getting the first money back.
Taharqa wrote:Regardless of the fine print in either of those deals,
You're dismissing the dramatically-shorter contract extension and the fact that CGL was forced to pay creditors they had previously refused to as "fine print" but you're not spinning at all, nope.
Lets look at your spin, shall we? CGL was not "forced" to pay creditors, they voluntarily settled out of court. And the most insider information we have (from AH) can't even confirm what amounts of money were involved, nor what timetable has been set up for re-payment. Also, if you bothered to read what I wrote before criticizing it you would note that I pulled direct quotes from the legal document where CGL said it was willing to pay 2 of the 3 creditors what they asked for, thus you are demonstrably wrong in saying that CGL "refused."
My point, however, is that none of this really matters. It has only come to matter because people here are looking for a gray lining to a silver cloud. The court case has been watched closely on this thread not because of some altruistic concern for the welfare of CGL's creditors, but because Frank and others have treated it as a CGL death watch. Regardless of the details of the settlement, it has proven not to be a death knell for CGL, just like the license renewal before it.
Every one seems kind of surprised that IMR kept its licenses, but is anyone out there chomping at the bit to get either license? Some companies might want to pick up Battletech after Mechwarrior 5 comes out because the video games always brings a few people over to the TT game. Mechwarrior 5 isn't a sure thing, we haven't seen anything since the trailer and the trailer wasn't in-game footage, it was a pre-rendered cutscene. Right now we seem to be in a bear market for tabletop games, I can't see another company putting in a serious bid for either property.
Last edited by Juton on Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Taharqa wrote:
Lets look at your spin, shall we? CGL was not "forced" to pay creditors, they voluntarily settled out of court.
I think it's fair to say that most people agree that if legal action is taken against a company to get the money out of them and in response to that legal action the company pays, it counts as "forced to pay".
Taharqa wrote:
The court case has been watched closely on this thread not because of some altruistic concern for the welfare of CGL's creditors, but because Frank and others have treated it as a CGL death watch. Regardless of the details of the settlement, it has proven not to be a death knell for CGL, just like the license renewal before it.
If you want to bring motivations into why people may discusss this, consider that due to CGL's behaviour, they lost the main body of talent that created the very successful and high-quality 4th Ed. (im and a lot of other's o). So long as CGL has the licence, these people wont be writing for Shadowrun again. That raises serious concerns about what may be done to the setting and game line. For example, if CGL rushed out a rather dire 5th edition, it would likely ruin any chances of another company doing a proper job of it on any sensible time scale, meaning Shadowrun as a continuing game-line could be effectively dead.
Last edited by knasser on Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
knasser wrote:
If you want to bring motivations into why people may discusss this, consider that due to CGL's behaviour, they lost the main body of talent that created the very successful and high-quality 4th Ed. (im and a lot of other's o). So long as CGL has the licence, these people wont be writing for Shadowrun again. That raises serious concerns about what may be done to the setting and game line. For example, if CGL rushed out a rather dire 5th edition, it would likely ruin any chances of another company doing a proper job of it on any sensible time scale, meaning Shadowrun as a continuing game-line could be effectively dead.
Not to mention the fact that the work under Jason has been consistently crap. The fact that he can't even properly bring together a book that was mostly written prior to his tenure as line dev is a terrible sign for the future of the game.
I don't honestly think Jason is capable of bringing a fifth edition to market. So I'm not as worried about the line being sunk by a shit edition as I am of it being sunk by continued neglect and inept handling of the current edition.
For a minute, I used to be "a guy" in the TTRPG "industry". Now I'm just a nobody. For the most part, it's a relief.
Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
hogarth wrote:As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.
TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
So the people that were owed money and sued have been promised to be paid by Catalyst, anyone that didn't have the balls to get on the bandwagon is going to get the shitty end of the stick, and Catalyst still has a very good chance at driving Shadowrun and Battletech into oblivion. That about sum everything up?
So the people that were owed money and sued have been promised to be paid by Catalyst, anyone that didn't have the balls to get on the bandwagon is going to get the shitty end of the stick, and Catalyst still has a very good chance at driving Shadowrun and Battletech into oblivion. That about sum everything up?
You forgot that Catalyst will continue to have the undying support of full-on retards like Tarharqa and Clutch and Caldazar.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Generally, one thing IMR *would* get out of this is a statement that no parties involved can disclose details of the settlement.
Ha. Like that will improve their public image. Enough folks know what they did, what they are - despite Tarq and Cowlick and the rest.
So... Fifth Ed. is stalled at the starting gate due to poor leadership and a distinct lack of writing talent. And better no Fifth Ed. than a crappy one. Have I got that right?
Kinda wonder what will happen to BT. Seems like it has to be adversely affected by all these... events.
The dumbest motherfucker I have ever seen wrote:Enough folks know what they did, what they are - despite Tarq and Cowlick and the rest.
No seriously, can someone explain to this retard that he is fucking retarded, and that there are literally zero instances of me forgiving/supporting/defending/questioning the veracity of accusations against CGL?
It's just a little annoying to have to read this thread to track information and watch apologists, only to have some dumbass thread crap every twelve posts about how I'm one of the apologists.
Ancient History wrote:Well, I'd think a brief review of your activity in this thread would be sufficient, but seeing as this is the third time you've brought it up:
Okay, I concur. Cowlick is not a CGL fanbitch. I jumped in the wayback machine and took a look. Damn! He's not. So why my confusion?
Well, it could just be I am a retarded motherfucker. My posts are somewhat random, I derail threads and worsened the signal to noise ratio at least twice with my insane ranting. It could be.
Or it could be maybe I lumped him with the fanbitches under the heading of 'annoying trollkin' because of a string of delusional PMs I got from him back in the day. A veritable string, I tell you. It nearly vexed me.
Or darn it, it could be both. Gonna have to get a good book, a cigar and a cuppa coffee and think on that one.
But not for long. They don't call me retarded for nothing.
For a minute, I used to be "a guy" in the TTRPG "industry". Now I'm just a nobody. For the most part, it's a relief.
Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
hogarth wrote:As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.
TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
Seriously, Frank seems to think things are not as rosy financially behind the scenes as CGL/IMR would have the world think.
Will Topps continue to invest their time and licenses in order to recoup the money they are owed? Or is the company management so inept (and it is not just Frank who says this) and its product line so bereft of value that it will collapse in the next year?
I agree, there are not many at this point who would pick up the BT license. Shadowrun would be where my money'd go.
Centurion13 wrote:Seriously, Frank seems to think things are not as rosy financially behind the scenes as CGL/IMR would have the world think.
While IMR's undoubtedly a clusterfuck, it's also more opaque than ever now that most of the staff and writers who've got problems with LLC and/or the generally borked management have walked. Frank was spot on about financial trouble and mismanagement when he first went public, but pretty much every prospective claim or prediction he's made since DSG and his other sources left IMR has been incorrect. Slam dunk bankruptcy? No license extension? No more printed books? Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
IMR's clearly on a short leash and probably on life support, but Frank doesn't really know more than anyone else at this point. It's all guesswork.
Last edited by Asbestos Underwear on Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Asbestos Underwear wrote:
While IMR's undoubtedly a clusterfuck, it's also more opaque than ever now that most of the staff and writers who've got problems with LLC and/or the generally borked management have walked. Frank was spot on about financial trouble and mismanagement when he first went public, but pretty much every prospective claim or prediction he's made since DSG and his other sources left IMR has been incorrect. Slam dunk bankruptcy? No license extension? No more printed books? Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
IMR's clearly on a short leash and probably on life support, but Frank doesn't really know more than anyone else at this point. It's all guesswork.
It may be that Frank made the classic mistake of intelligent people which is to assume that others will also act intelligently. This does not always bear out. In particular in the areas of different parties co-operating toward mutual goals.
Plus, the court case was a slam dunk, which is why IMR paid the creditors in question the money they were owed to keep it from going forward.
If enough creditors had signed on that they could not have paid them all and then the case actually went to court, then yes, it would have been a slam dunk. Since the other creditors sat back and waited to see what happened, the creditors who signed on in the first place got paid, the case never went to court, and the people waiting for a check are still waiting.
FrankTrollman wrote:Plus, the court case was a slam dunk, which is why IMR paid the creditors in question the money they were owed to keep it from going forward.
Thats more guesswork. Lawsuits are most likely to be settled when neither side has a rock-solid case and thus both sides would rather settle out-of-court than take the risk (and expense) of going to trial and losing. So, in the absence of real information, the best assumption at this point is that the case was neither frivolous (in which case IMR would have pushed for a trial and then demanded payment for court costs) nor a "slam dunk" (in which case the petitioners would have held out).
If enough creditors had signed on that they could not have paid them all and then the case actually went to court, then yes, it would have been a slam dunk. Since the other creditors sat back and waited to see what happened, the creditors who signed on in the first place got paid, the case never went to court, and the people waiting for a check are still waiting.
I am too lazy to go through 100 pages of dumpshock threads, but IMR has reportedly paid people that were not on the trial, and according to JH, they have also paid people that have not withheld copyright. I have no idea how much they still owe, but then again, I doubt you do either.
FrankTrollman wrote:Plus, the court case was a slam dunk, which is why IMR paid the creditors in question the money they were owed to keep it from going forward.
Thats more guesswork. Lawsuits are most likely to be settled when neither side has a rock-solid case and thus both sides would rather settle out-of-court than take the risk (and expense) of going to trial and losing. So, in the absence of real information, the best assumption at this point is that the case was neither frivolous (in which case IMR would have pushed for a trial and then demanded payment for court costs) nor a "slam dunk" (in which case the petitioners would have held out).
If enough creditors had signed on that they could not have paid them all and then the case actually went to court, then yes, it would have been a slam dunk. Since the other creditors sat back and waited to see what happened, the creditors who signed on in the first place got paid, the case never went to court, and the people waiting for a check are still waiting.
I am too lazy to go through 100 pages of dumpshock threads, but IMR has reportedly paid people that were not on the trial, and according to JH, they have also paid people that have not withheld copyright. I have no idea how much they still owe, but then again, I doubt you do either.
I was reading those 100+ pages of DS threads as they happened, and I can tell you that you are half right. IMR is in the process of paying the people that they should have paid three years ago, but they are not anywhere near catching up or keeping all parties paid up on time. Nearly a year since this came to light, and they are still struggling. Pressured by Topps to clean up their act, and their still struggling. Loren Coleman is still on the payroll, still living in Snohomish, and IMR is still struggling.
They're lost a lot of talent because of their unprofessional practices. It's time that everyone let go of their hero worship and realized that IMR is just not very good at what they do, but they happen to have the license to develop and publish a few games that we love. You don't have to love IMR to love Shadowrun or Battletech. And right now the association seems to be hurting both properties.
Hey, Frank, I have a question only sort of related to the Shadowrun thing.
What's the source for that statistic about Utah having more multi-level marketing scams per capita than the rest of the world? I've got someone who swears Mormons (and by extension the folks in Utah because "the cultural values spread") are awesome people (and, okay, I'll concede they can be personable and nice and maybe make a killer pot roast or whatever's popular out that way), and I need to pop his bubble. I have seen some recent shenanigans and they've inclined me to think there's some about Utah that makes you unsuited to being a boss.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
