The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

[Username17]

Seriously, without resorting to game rules or mechanical descriptions but only referencing stuff in the class, describe to me how a level 15 fighter is different from a level 5 fighter. Like you were writing a story in a book or filming a movie.

• He makes his own magic weapon to kill the big bad guy.
• He can perform stunts that allow him to attack giant monsters without putting himself in harm's way.
• He can interrupt magical powers of wizards and even foil dragon breath.
• He can, through force of will, turn himself back to flesh from having been turned into stone long enough to stab the evil wizard in the belly.
• He has several additional feat-based tricks available that might or might not be different from what a different 5th level Fighter was doing.

So yes, the Tome Fighter is totally different at 15th level than he is at 5th. And not just because he has bigger numbers. Your complaint is a little bit like whining about how if a Wizard just grabs a bunch of Enchantment school spells, they aren't any apparently different at 15th level than they are at 1st - especially if their enemies happen to be orcs.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

Seriously, without resorting to game rules or mechanical descriptions but only referencing stuff in the class, describe to me how a level 15 fighter is different from a level 5 fighter. Like you were writing a story in a book or filming a movie.

Well, he can change his tactics to respond to a situation and (hopefully) emerge victorious (swap feats, and Tome [combat] feats scale).

Still, I understand your point that "mundane guy with a sword" typically has to resort to stuff that's not in his direct control if you're watching a movie for people to maintain WSoD. So, most every dragon fight I see against a small dude with a sword involves:

• the guy dodging the dragon's claws and fire for a bit
• occasionally getting smacked around (but never truly hurt)
• stabbing the dragon in low-to-reach places that just piss it off
• and eventually exploiting the fact that the dragon backs into a column and knocks it down, so the fighter can run up the tipped column, reach the dragon's neck, and one-shot the fucker.

So, in game terms, this would involve the fighter actually being able to have the plot generate favorable circumstances, which sounds suspiciously like magic.

[fectin]

It will be really easy to recognize a worthwhile fighter: when you can't take a PrC without "+1 level of existing fighter class," they're balanced.

Why not make close combat relevant again? All you have to do is find ways to not care about the rockets.

It's totally in character for a barbarian to simply ignore spells; give him an evasion equivalent for the other two types while raging, and something always allowing a save. Or something crazy like making concentration checks to set SR.

Fighters are supposed to be tactical. I don't know how that works mechanically, but maybe they get to skip actions, and later declare that they spent the time planting a trap?

Rogues could arbitrarily have the ability to hide in plain sight (successfully). Not "have a ring of invisibility" but "force spot checks to see them".

Does that work?

[Lago PARANOIA]

He makes his own magic weapon to kill the big bad guy.

... a stunt which can be replicated by modestly famous NPC blacksmiths.

He can perform stunts that allow him to attack giant monsters without putting himself in harm's way.

And why can't the 5th level fighter do this? I mean, even disregarding the use of ranged weapons and all, it's not like attacking things many times your size is a high-level feat. The lower-tier X-Men could take on Sentinels. Conan totally killed a couple of frost giants in the comics. The friggin' Rescue Rangers could do it.

He can interrupt magical powers of wizards and even foil dragon breath.

And just how does he do that? If he interrupted the magical powers of wizards and such with an epic sword stunt or with a super kiai shout that would be one thing.

But all of your examples are silly low-grade shit like throwing dirt in the beholder's eye--which could be done by 5th level fighters. The only reason you can claim why 15th level fighters can do it and not 5th level fighters is because the Theory of Narrative Causality is backing them up at that level. And the TNC gets really stupid when it bars people from doing mundane solutions. It's not a big deal at all from a rules-perspective or a game-balance but it becomes a big problem when you're trying to preserve WSoD or internal logic.

He can, through force of will, turn himself back to flesh from having been turned into stone long enough to stab the evil wizard in the belly.

That is of course a legitimate high-level stunt.

He has several additional feat-based tricks available that might or might not be different from what a different 5th level Fighter was doing.

And those are the feats in of themselves, not the class. The class in of itself is just straight-up number manipulation (the no. of feats you get).

Your complaint is a little bit like whining about how if a Wizard just grabs a bunch of Enchantment school spells, they aren't any apparently different at 15th level than they are at 1st - especially if their enemies happen to be orcs.

And how long have you been under the impression that this is not a problem, insofar that you have meaningful diversity between classes as a goal?

[Midnight_v]

Quote:
He has several additional feat-based tricks available that might or might not be different from what a different 5th level Fighter was doing.


And those are the feats in of themselves, not the class. The class in of itself is just straight-up number manipulation (the no. of feats you get).

Examine why I don't get this please... I may not be as smart as you so bear with me.
How is that different from?

And those are the spells in of themselves, not the class. The class in of itself is just straight-up number manipulation

The number manipulation point acutally seems to be an aspect of the game as you actually DO need to be able to throw down bigger numbers as you go on. Because in terms of numbers level 10 is level 1(10)

The fighter is defined by his feats, you're being willfully ignorant, about it now, or just not expressing it clearly...
The Tome fighter is defined by his feats the way the wizard is defined by his spells.... AND the fighter gets things like foil which I"m not sure how thats number manipulation. Unless you mean action usage.
You can't phrase that argument that way. It doesn't work, combat feats, and having more of them than anyone else IS the class.


Some of what you're saying honestly I"m having trouble getting to the bottom of, to wit, what is it that you want.

[/spoiler]

[Kaelik]

what is it that you want.

What he wants is to bitch ceaselessly about how the Tome Fighter doesn't fix the problems it does fix, because he's too stupid to see the problems it actually doesn't fix.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The Tome fighter is defined by his feats the way the wizard is defined by his spells.... AND the fighter gets things like foil which I"m not sure how thats number manipulation. Unless you mean action usage.

Well, first of all, I am really not a fan of the way 3E designed its primary spellcasting classes. I understand that there are huge mechanical and bookwriting benefits towards doing this--it saves space, promotes system mastery, and makes writing new class material easier. So long story short, yes, I think it was dumb (but defensible) that the wizard class worked like this.

But my question was how the fighter thematically justified its existence as a separate high-level class in a way that didn't rely on metagaming or rules opacity. Adding more feats doesn't solve the problem--you may as well say that the sorcerer justified its existence because they have more spells than the wizard and it has them on a different schedule. People will notice that from a gaming standpoint but they won't notice it from a storytelling standpoint.

What he wants is to bitch ceaselessly about how the Tome Fighter doesn't fix the problems it does fix, because he's too stupid to see the problems it actually doesn't fix.

Kaelik, the point of this thread is how the fighter and its fellow DMF buddies becomes increasingly pointless from a thematic aspect over time because their schticks just do not keep up. I didn't really make this clear in the OP, but I also feel that the typical solution of cajiggering the numbers until the fighter becomes able to hold his own in combat doesn't fix the underlying problem.

I'm not blaming the Tome Fighter for this situation nor am I saying that it's a bad class, I'm just saying that I'm really fucking tired of people waving the Tome Fighter and claiming that it's a fix when this subject is brought up. Yes, the Tome Fighter fixes the mechanical problems, but not the conceptual ones.

[RobbyPants]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Username17]

In D&D land, you need magic to harm certain enemies and you need magic to go various places. The Tome Fighter is allowed to make magic weapons and magic clothes that in turn allow him to harm those enemies and go those places. Problem: solved.

In D&D land, you are compelled to deal with enemies who can blow up the entire building you are in and turn you to stone with a glance. The Tome Fighter can interrupt and foil those actions and even shrug off magical ensorcelment. Problem: solved.

Yes, the Tome Fighter has no special ability to remake the continent or change the techlevel of the setting. The Tome Fighter actually has relatively little ability to generate plot points. But he has a reasonable diplomacy score and he can participate in the actual adventures at all levels. Many people have complained that he is too Batman, since his planning based abilities are all reactive, meaning that he has an appropriate counter to pull out basically all the time.

But the Tome Fighter does solve the issues people seem to have. They want a character that plays like a sword wielding character from a fantasy movie who is nonetheless able to adventure in D&D adventures at all levels without feeling like a sidekick or sitting out most of the adventure. He does do that.

-Username17

[Midnight_v]

First... I agree'd with Robby Pants. That didnt' make much sense, the part about the sorceror, but I'd like to drop that point. So I will.
Second, you've agreed that the tome fighter DOES fix the mechanical aspect. So while Frank is correct about what he says... I THINK I see what you're saying.
Its this word:

Thematically... thematically... thematically. On the one hand I want to throw that argument out because theres real basis outside imagination and thus... your mile may vary on who you'll be able to get to believe about what.
However... it seems that there have been attempts to fix the concept right? Like Blade magic in the Bo9S or whatever.
If you're asking me what a last level Warrior is supposed to be doing I'm going to be answering with things like:
Feat: of combat.
Slay an army.... in hell.
Kill the king of hell (sit on the throne)
Feats: of stamina.
Swim to the bottom of the ocean.
Survive outer space.
Climb out of a volcano.
................................
Advancing plot point is such an nebulous thing. You actually don't let the skill system work when you say... Using diplomacy/intimidate to force the Umberhulk lord to follow and aid in your quest to be less than dominate monster or at least approximate the situation in some way.
That hurts everybody who rely on skill instead of spells.
...
Howevre if you want to fighter to Trancend thats fine too Thats thematic. I got ya.
Basically whent the fighter reaches a certain level, thematically you want to give him something in itallics like:

"You've now reached the surpassed the pinacle of human war master, ascended into legend and become a Demigod of battle"
Funny thing about that is... you're kinda supposed to be doing that anyway.
... If you want...
Thats fluff and its supposed to be mutable.
The greatest mortal swordsman mythologically even wounded the God of War... I think it was the illiad where that guy threw a spear and drove Mars from the battle field.
So... isn't the problem then that people don't understand the level at which we're superheroes? (flavor to your liking).
You can't make anybody accept that, it isn't about WSoD, its about their own willful ignorance: i.e. Get the "anime" out of my D&D.

Hows that? Am i on the same page with you at least, here?

[BearsAreBrown]

I do think that's what he's saying. And to respond to your comment that "Become of the demigod of battle!" is fluff and therefore mutable to whatever fighter you want... you're right. But that still doesn't matter. On a thematic level the archtype of a high level wizard is stronger then that of the demigod of battle. Magic allows for things like the creation of planes and creatures. No amount of sword swinging, be it from Gimli or Ares, can achieve similar effects. It's not a statement about RPGs, it's a statement about fantasy narrative.

@Whoever tried to equate the Wizard's spells and the Fighter's feats. Everyone gets feats, the Fighter gets more. If everyone got spells but the Wizard got more then your argument would be on point. But they don't.

[Josh_Kablack]

It's not a statement about RPGs, it's a statement about fantasy narrative.

That is what Lago is arguing here.

I don't think it's entirely and universally true, but I do think it has enough traction in the popular imagination for Lago's complaint to have merit.

[Midnight_v]

I do think that's what he's saying. And to respond to your comment that "Become of the demigod of battle!" is fluff and therefore mutable to whatever fighter you want... you're right. But that still doesn't matter. On a thematic level the archtype of a high level wizard is stronger then that of the demigod of battle. Magic allows for things like the creation of planes and creatures. No amount of sword swinging, be it from Gimli or Ares, can achieve similar effects. It's not a statement about RPGs, it's a statement about fantasy narrative.

@Whoever tried to equate the Wizard's spells and the Fighter's feats. Everyone gets feats, the Fighter gets more. If everyone got spells but the Wizard got more then your argument would be on point. But they don't.

Thats a problem in the fantasy narrative then. The High wizard is NOT supposed to be able to create a demiplane by his own power. He's supposed to get some group made/or ancient artifact to do that, and frankly if its that then anyone can do it.
People hate it when you say that cause we're talking taking away toys there. . . but no ultimately the "High Wizard" is NOT supposed to be greater than the demigod of battle. On that not what you're really talking about is what people say when they talk about the "Avengers" approach or the "Justice" league approach. The avengers tend to "hit it till it falls down" and the JLA have to "figure out how to stop it".
Both acutally have a lot of traction depending on who's writing.
Alternatively, you're argument is basically that the Wizard is "GOD"; thus better than the "demigod of battle" the problem with this is simple, that situation, in which the wizard is GOD because of his own class abilities is essentially ONLY available in 3.5 D&D.
Which is a fail of that particular fantasy narrative.
Most of the time the wizard is defintively NOT GOD and has to.
A. Track down some ancient artifact.
B. Complete the ritual of ascension, under the 2nd full moon, while sacrificing the newborn aasimar child. Or whatever.
To say otherwise is essentially, bullshit, Bearsarebrown. No seriously.
Here's why: On a thematic level the archtype of a high level wizard
That thematic archtype is NOT the same as being GOD *not the big letters*
No where but D&D has that ever happened due to class abilities. So yeah you have to fix that but not on the fighter end.
Everybody is supposed to HAVE to travel to mordor to drop the fucking ring in the lava, no matter WHAT you're class. Some people can fly there and some people can teleport, but once you're teleporting you're simply beyond the level of that type of adventure. The demigod actually simply WALKS into MORDOR, contrary to advertisement otherwise and drops the ring in the volcano no muss no fuss.
The thing is when we go into the level range where you actually can't do that you totally need either to go to a place like a volcano and perform a ritual that is costly/time/exausitve confusing to get into the elemental plane of fire. Or go to a place where there's already a permanent gate. Thats actually how most fantasy narratives work.

@Whoever tried to equate the Wizard's spells and the Fighter's feats. Everyone gets feats, the Fighter gets more. If everyone got spells but the Wizard got more then your argument would be on point. But they don't.

Fuck. That was me. You are aware we're talking about the tome fighter right? The exclusivity argument fails there. Why? Because thats NOT all the fighter gets.
Spells are all the wizard gets.
Further. Yes everyone gets feats and the fighter gets more, but MORE importantly in the argument that "You" are trying to make.
Fighters... and by that extension Melee-ists get MORE out of them which is generally enough. It doesn't have to be a direct translation between spells and feats at all because we're actually NOT talking about the phb fighter at all. If we were your statement would have had more merit. I suspect your a victim of not reading there so I can see you missing that point.
I'd have to go back and reread all that but you're basically wrong about that as the Tome fighter again gets MORE than just feats, but actually class features AND more feats that do stuff.

[Ice9]

Magic allows for things like the creation of planes and creatures. No amount of sword swinging, be it from Gimli or Ares, can achieve similar effects. It's not a statement about RPGs, it's a statement about fantasy narrative.

The one thing though - while maybe the concept of "magic" allows for things like that, the actual spells in D&D don't. Seriously, I see stuff like this:

Problem: There's a plague of undead spreading across the kingdom.
Wizard: Creates a formula for a cure that can be made easily by anyone, then instantly spreads the information.
Cleric: Create a huge wave of positive energy that heals everyone in the whole kingdom and vaporizes the undead.
Fighter: Can't do shit except stab zombies, therefore useless.

Except none of that actually works, outside of handwaving and infinite loops. And you know what? Nobody actually allows/uses infinite loops like chain solar gating. Because it is fucking infinite. The closest you get to "creating planes and creatures" is making a tiny pocket dimension that you can slowly grow larger, and creating Simulacrums of existing creatures.

Sure, conceptually, giant world-altering effects are on par with what high-level spells do. But they don't actually exist outside of homebrew.

[Midnight_v]

You have a good point. You're right said magic is mostly not there. . . or maybe it is as pertaining to the highly optimized cleric but I don't feel like looking right now I'm sure there's something that totally would pwn all undead within X miles or some shit. .
You have a good point.
Except it the zombie thing really is fucking annoying.
That shit does NOT EXIST. Which goes into your argument just fine. The hypothetical Zombie plague that "the fighter"Tm. cant stab his way through just doesn't fucking exist.
Its a really stupid and misleading example in a lot of ways. Just the whole... the fighter can't do shit. Again were not talking Phb fighter pretty much ever so meh.
Stabbinating the undead horde tracking down its leader and killing it is essentially the entire theme of all Castlevania - like games "ghouls and ghost"... the "Lich-king" expansion.
If its not a "leader-based" situation then you have to murder all the undead.
But this plauge shit ... it doesn't ever exist in D&D.
Ghoul fever and all the spawning critters in the world have to do something to you to get ya.
The closest thing I can think of is. . . Spawn of Kyuss, and thas not water or air transmissable. Its just such a bullshit scenario to trot out, you know?
Its completely unworkable cause "it" like you said. "doesn't exist".
If it does exist... then its stabable.
Sorry Know thats a tagential to your point but that particular example is just mind boggling.

[BearsAreBrown]

Thats a problem in the fantasy narrative then. The High wizard is NOT supposed to be able to create a demiplane by his own power. He's supposed to get some group made/or ancient artifact to do that, and frankly if its that then anyone can do it....

Most of the time the wizard is defintively NOT GOD and has to.
A. Track down some ancient artifact.
B. Complete the ritual of ascension, under the 2nd full moon, while sacrificing the newborn aasimar child. Or whatever.

Ah, so the Wizard can perform diefic feats but he has to jump through MacGuffin hoops. Okay. He's still the doing diefic shit while demigod of battle hits things with his sword.

What you're saying about walking into Mordor lost me. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Demigods of Battle also go on MacGuffin quests to gain world alter power?

Fuck. That was me.

I never said all the Fighter gets is feats. I know he gets more. That's totally not what I was saying. The fact that the Fighter gets more then just feats only fuels my argument that you cannot equate feats(something everyone gets) to spells(unique to the 'wizard'). This is tangential to the point.

[Midnight_v]

Ah, so the Wizard can perform diefic feats but he has to jump through MacGuffin hoops. Okay. He's still the doing diefic shit while demigod of battle hits things with his sword.

No. I'm saying this:

" Since we're not talking about D&D mechanics as people keep pointing out. Rather are discussing some flavor text bullshit Aka Fantasy Narrative it shuold be noted that there are no fucking fantasy Narratives Outside D&D in which the default position of Wizard is GOD. "
So the fact is the Demigod of battle can do the same fucking ritual or has to get the artifact. We see that all the time, infact thats seen anytime the Big Bad has any class but wizard.

What you're saying about walking into Mordor lost me. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Demigods of Battle also go on MacGuffin quests to gain world alter power?

Yeah I am saying that exaclty that because its ostensibly true. The reason fighter's can have "nice things" apparently is because the D&D Narrative is broke.
There's no backing for that type of bullshit in anyone elses stories... world alter power as an exclusive play ground is just weird and non intuitive. Since we're firmly in the realm of what should be here and not what is though I think thats why they did the ritual thing in 4th ed. It failed but the idea was in the right place.
You can't really have it both ways, though there was no end to bitching about how the rituals there didn't do shit. I don't know about 4th ed because I ddin't bother knowing 4.5 would be out sooner than later, but from what people say I've gleaned that general concept.
In any fair sense you can't have a narrative in which it ends: Then the wizard becomes raistlin. Good Game.
Of course in D&D there's also: then cyric murdered the god of murder, and became the god of murder. Basically, it seems people are saying thematically the fighter has no place where the wizard becomes god, it upsets the narrative. To which really... In most narratives the answer is simple: Wizard never becomes GOD
Its just too fucking stupid to equate "nice things" to "becomes GOD" so yeah if you're having that problem let the fighter become GOD. Give him Divine rank zero or whatever in your games, thats pretty much what happens in legend lots of times anyway.

never said all the Fighter gets is feats. I know he gets more. That's totally not what I was saying. The fact that the Fighter gets more then just feats only fuels my argument that you cannot equate feats(something everyone gets) to spells(unique to the 'wizard'). This is tangential to the point.

Lets review:

And those are the feats in of themselves, not the class. The class in of itself is just straight-up number manipulation (the no. of feats you get).

Examine why I don't get this please... I may not be as smart as you so bear with me.
How is that different from?
"And those are the spells in of themselves, not the class. The class in of itself is just straight-up number manipulation"

Okay now that we all know what was said, I'm gonna break it down slowly. . .
The two are totally comparable in that the class itself is defined by "WHAT IT GETS" no one in that discussion was talking about the value of feats.
What we're talking about there is class chasis only. Or at least thats what I meant. The exclusionary argument you're trying to use just doesn't fit, because thats not whats being discussed.
Ultimately if your suggesting that I should have said something like the fighter gets the *fighters class abilities* that doesn't work in the discussion we were having.
We could have said sneak attack or wildshape or whatever, because what I'm talking about there his distiction between class features... and class.
You can't really pull the two apart, in the way that he was trying to.
What you you were pointing out wasn't tangential it was irrelavant. No offense.

[For Valor]

I'm on the side of fighters not making good narrative characters. I have a friend who loves fighters, and at level 20 he's still smacking things around with his hammer for a lot of damage.

There's little to no awesome in that.

[Spike]

They're fucking Trees of Might, there's no way an action hero could cut those things down fast enough to make a difference. Seriously, have you seen lumberjacking done without power tools? It's an all-day affair and those are just regular trees. I mean, sure, Paul Bunyan could rise to the challenge. Sora could. But not Conan.

The fighter tunnels under the Wall of Force.

... only to find out that the walls of force extend underneath the ground, so no.
The fighter kills the zombies. Kills all of them.

Your last example is (no offense) pretty laughable. Considering this is an argument about flavor and not power level, and I agree that Fighters and Wizards should be equal in power, why would you mention a zombie invasion as something that the Fighter could not Fight?

Because only a goddamn moron attempts to fight a zombie invasion. Yes, the action hero could chew through tens of thousands of them and win. BIG FUCKING DEAL! You still lose the motherfucking adventure which was 'save the city against a zombie apocalypse' not 'kill every zombie'. I mean if you were going to kill the zombie hordes on hand you may as well not have even bothered.

I know this particular post is from a little ways back, but no one seemed to address a few very odd bits.

Why can't Paul Bunyan be a high level DMF? Because it breaks your point that they don't get to do cool shit? He's a dude with a big ax, and it is totally plausible in the canon of American Myth for Paul Bunyan to cut down some cursed tree that no one else can...


Likewise the Zombie apocalypse: The fighter guy is the dude that totally tries to kill every motherfucking zombie... and does. That's his schtick, it's how he rolls. The wizard researches anti-apocalypse spells, the cleric goes out and does anti-zombie miracles, the rogue sneaks away from the horde and finds the necromancer and stabs him in the back... and the fighter personally goes out and chops up ten thousand zombies a day.

So, if the high level fighter can't just shrug and chop down the Tree of Life Sucking or kill then thousand zombies a day... then there is the problem with high level fighters.

The ability or inability to get to a hell dimension under his own power is negligible. The dude who can get everyone to the hell dimension is the fucking taxi driver.

[hogarth]

Why can't Paul Bunyan be a high level DMF? Because it breaks your point that they don't get to do cool shit?

Because there's no such thing as a level 1 Paul Bunyan, unless you want to play "Paul Bunyan: The Toddler Years".

[Midnight_v]

Reducio ad abusurdem aside.
I disagree with hogarth. Keeping up the Paul Bunyan theme, at low levels he's just a pretty damn good lumberjack with a heroic streak.
Just like low level wizard are stage magician with a heroic streak.
I can see it.

[Spike]

The thing I see here is both a lot of grand exclamations that don't actually stand up to good arguments (the Paladin just summons his gold dragon mount, fighter fail!) and a lot of mistaking the name for the object.

Look: A paladin gets a fucking horse. I have yet to see a D&D game, across three additions (four? Whats the 4E take) where that was remotely cool. Hell, the 'chosen of Valarian' gets a fucking Unicorn and even that turns out kinda MEH in practice. The Paladin can upgrade to a dragon, with some work and willing GM. Then again, the Fighter can just take the Leadership feat, use the same special cohort rules and GM willingness, and PRESTO! he's riding a fucking dragon too. Its not even hard to do mechanically.


As for the second. Yeah, we call him a fighter, because the book does. You can also call him the DMF, because its good short hand. What you can't really do is use the fucking NAME (especially the DMF, which sounds more like a playstyle than a class...) to set the limits to the class to keep it gimped, then protest the entire concept as fail.

Thematically, a dude that hits stuff with a stick is very common. Hell, to the non-D&D crowd I'd argue it is more popular than 'dude who magicks shit up'.

Looking at a deep canon of lore we have Beowulf, who could swim for a fortnight while fighting monsters, in armor in the north sea, could rip an arm off an ogre or troll (or whatever you want) barehanded, which even a 20th level fighter can't do, he's still restricted to stabbing it in the face with his implement of choice, and as an old man pretty much soloed an ancient wyrm until he'd stabbed it in the face enough to kill it, surviving its SOD poison breath for the entire fight.

That's just one dude. Paul Bunyan is a high level 'guy with ax' concept too, as mentioned, certainly he is higher than 'level five'. He may not be on the same plane as 'Elminster', but he's at least mid-tier, which can provide the start of a progression path.

Thematically the 'fighter' kills stuff by being so damn good at stabbing it in the face that it dies, regardless. Looking at RNG stuff (Base attack bonuses, damage bonuses) is missing the point, for all the reasons that have been pointed out before in this thread and others. 'Fighters' get 'cool abilities' that specifically relate to stabbing shit in the face and surviving shit that stabs them in the face, because to the non-D&D person, that is thematically exactly what 'fighters' do, particularly the mythic, high level fighters.

Monster has damage reduction or regeneration or some other 'lol-facestab fail' ability? Fighter dude is so cool he can ignore/mitigate that.

SoD? Fighter Dude never just dies (well, at least not at higher levels...), he just takes lots of damage instead, or delays death long enough to complete face-stabbing (and, coincidentally, perhaps be saved from death...).

Flying monster? Fighter dude can cripple wings with thrown rocks, can swing his sword hard enough to make a cutting wind, whatever.

boring? Opinion. Lots of people think running around in a dress and wishing all your problems away is 'silly', 'boring' or what have you, but smacking a beholder right in the face with a stick? cool!


Tangentally: Magic should not be replacing skills point blank. The solution seems simple enough. As I'm low on time: Magic invisibility is better than stealth unless someone has "see invisibility" going on (common mid/high level monster power), but there is not (and should not be...) a 'see stealth' 'power'. This can be expanded with some work on the skill system as well. Summoning a magic horse to ride means not having to know how to actually ride horses, but if (for some reason) you have to ride a real horse, you can't just magic up the skill (this actually implies that having a ride skill is meaningful beyond qualifying (super easy) for a couple of marginally useful feats.

[souran]

I have to say:

Mindnight has you all owned on this one.

First: IN D&D land the PARTY wizard is never the one who researches the zombie apocolypse. The PARTY cleric is never the one who can cleanse the whole kingdom.

The PLAYER cleric and the PLAYER wizard are honestly going to go about fightiing the zombie apcollypse the same way the fighter is:

They are going to kill as many as possible and track down the source and hope that by disintegrating/turning/stabbing it in the face that it makes the zombies go away.

If it were possible to "solve" the zombie apcoplyse by having the party wizard cast a single spell it would be a terribad adventure.

What drives plot is interaction with story elements: and that can be done by anyone. In reality, regardless of their characters mental scores smart players are going to ask insightful questions, intuitative players are going to ask character oriented questions, and silly players are goint to ask silly questions.

The way you end up as a sidekick in an tabletop rpg is to be the person who TALKS the least. It doesn't matter what your class is if you are passive you are going to end up as Robin. If you are passive and an asshat you are going to be jason todd robin.

Also @ all the people saying whats the differance between a level 5 and level 15 fighter except numbers:

Whats the differance between a level 15 wizard and a level 5 wizard except that we have aribtarly allowed the level 15 wizard to cast higher level spells.

There is nothing thematically different about the D&D wizard level 1 to 20. How does his level make any sense as a limit to what he can MEMORIZE. If a level 1 wizard could find a level 9 spell scroll is there anything thematically preventing him from casting it?

Think about how many spells are just upgunned versions of lower level spells. The wizard as a combatant changes less than the fighter. Sleep, charm, illusion, elemental damage or summon.

He has some additional noncombat freedom: but in order to get it he has to surrender combat power for the day. Additionally, that noncombat power is all in the inturpretation of the GM and the group, meaning it varies widely from table to table.

That isn't to say that the wizard isn't more powerful than the fighter and that shouldn't be fixed. Its just the idea that the wizard has lots of choose his own destiny level control the fighter doesn't is just not true.

[hogarth]

I disagree with hogarth. Keeping up the Paul Bunyan theme, at low levels he's just a pretty damn good lumberjack with a heroic streak.

Which Paul Bunyan story are you referring to?

[Spike]

I disagree with hogarth. Keeping up the Paul Bunyan theme, at low levels he's just a pretty damn good lumberjack with a heroic streak.

Which Paul Bunyan story are you referring to?

Don't be daft. Just because no one tells stories of 'wee paul bunyan, the ordinary little boy with a love of axes' doesn't invalidate the point that a 'chump with sword' can progress through 'John Mclane' into 'Paul Bunyan' as he levels, and should given the particulars.

I've got about five minutes left so:

Mechanically the 'fighter class' is obviously broken. Its mechanical theme is 'I have better numbers than you'. More hit points, higher armor, better BAB, more Feats... all numbers that every other class has, but not as well.

As mechanical themes go it isn't terribly bad by itself... if it were actually true and if the non-generic abilities didn't so massively overshadow the generic 'everyone has them' abilities.

First of all, the Paladin has exactly the same number, except for feats. Instead he gets slightly more potent class abilities AND the ability to cast spells.

The Barbarian has more hit points, and when you add in Rage and Damage Reduction powers, Uncanny Dodge etc, the barbarian is measurably better at pretty much the entire fighter 'schtick' of 'having better numbers than you'... oh... and the barbarian gets more skill points too.

Of course, if you plan to spend all your feats on two weapon fighting or being an archer, a Ranger is a net upgrade as well, gaining an ever expanding list of enemies for bonus and spells on top of everything else, and merely trading a few (what is the average? 1 HP a level?) hit points for four times as many skill points.

Right there we can see a problem: If the fighter's entire mechanical schtick is supposed to be 'I have better raw numbers', he is already outmatched by each of his cohorts in the fighting game, just on raw numbers, and he doesn't even really get 'better numbers' across the board either. His saves are essentially identical to everyone elses and the fighter's skill points are trash (admittedly so are wizards and clerics and so forth...).

So the guy who takes and deals damage is the barbarian and the dude in heavy armor and a shield is the Paladin and the guy who mucks about with a bow is the Ranger... the only reason to NOT play one of those classes is a disagreement with theme. I don't wanna be a savage, I don't wanna be a holy man, I don't wanna hang out in the woods...

In theory we could just dismiss the fighter because it is an appendix compared to the other 'fighting' classes, but that 'I don't wanna...' theme problem is a real one, and there is plenty of room for the dude whose just 'I'm really fucking cool and I stab you in the face however I want'.

The fix is simple: Give the fighters unique 'stab people in the face' powers that allow them to compete with barbarians or paladins that other classes don't get or have limited access too. If all stab people in the face classes are brokenly weak against high level pure spell casters, then obviously, bring all of them up to snuff.