The Decline and Fall of White Wolf

[theye1]

I'm still angry at White-wolf for releasing the Gypsy book, the racism in that book gotta be deliberate.

[Username17]

I'm still angry at White-wolf for releasing the Gypsy book, the racism in that book gotta be deliberate.

That's fair. World of Darkness: Gypsy is probably the worst book ever printed by a major company. It's not RaHoWa or FATAL, but it's really really bad. However, as previously noted: White Wolf doesn't exist. That book was printed in 1994 and written by Teeuwynn Woodruff, who mysteriously still has a job in the industry - but not at White Wolf. You can go ahead and boycott d6 Adventures or the Livingroom Games edition of Earthdawn. It was developed by Andrew Greenberg, the mastermind behind Mage: the Ascension and Fading Suns. Of more recent works, you can express your displeasure by boycotting Rapture: the Second Coming or any of the other crap from Holistic.

White Wolf isn't a company anymore. The people who worked for it in the mid 90s work elsewhere on other projects or have left the industry altogether. Even Rein*Hagen lives and works in Eastern Europe writing propaganda for the ruling elites of Georgia. The books and computer games that come out now are made by an Icelandic company called CCP, who purchased the White Wolf logo while the company was falling apart. But nothing is copyrighted by White Wolf these days, it's just a logo that CCP puts on their RPG books.

-Username17

[Don Strudel]

Because Requiem sucks and no one likes it.

Then why is it a platinum seller on DriveThruRPG/RPGNow? Obviously it's doing something right.

[Lago PARANOIA]

That's fair. World of Darkness: Gypsy is probably the worst book ever printed by a major company.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=156725

[Maxus]

What's the dirt on the gypsy book? We need some new rage 'round here.

Please, do it for Lago. He gets testy without his rage-fix.

[Ancient History]

World of Darkness: Gypsies came out in '97, sort of a dry-run for the Year of the Ally splats.

Basically, all gypsies are presented as part of an ancient coalition of families tied into the core games (Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Vampire), and just by being gypsy you get magical powers based on your blood. Also, you steal shit. The book is basically one-half fanwankery and one-half every Hollywood stereotype about gypsies you can name - so if you like your people to be purebred Rom with scarves that kill, this is the supplement for you.

[Maxus]

And they seem to have forgotten that there are real Roma out there and didn't do any research like asking gen-u-wine gypsies about any weird stories/boogeymen that get used on children.

I didn't know Stephenie Meyer attended the White Wolf School of Research, too.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What's the dirt on the gypsy book? We need some new rage 'round here.

Please, do it for Lago. He gets testy without his rage-fix.

That's true, but I'm having a very hard time believing that anything can get worse than a book where it tells you that it's very heroic to set up bestiality rape camps in order to uplift the human spirit. Incidentally by the same publishing combat.

I don't even know if I WANT to know how to top that.

[Ancient History]

There's a passage in WoD: Gypsies where a gypsy child uses their magical powers to steal one of the nails the legionnaires are going to use to crucify Jesus, and Jesus looks down at the kid and tells him his entire people officially have his permission to ignore that whole "Thou shalt not steal" bit in the Bible.

[Don Strudel]

That's hilarious.

[TheWorid]

That story is attested to in scholarly sources. It's not something a White Wolf writer made up.

It's still hilarious.

[Maxus]

"That was an awesome move, kid. Just for that, your whole people are allowed to steal.'

"Yessir!"

[TheFlatline]

Because Requiem sucks and no one likes it.

Then why is it a platinum seller on DriveThruRPG/RPGNow? Obviously it's doing something right.

PDF sales as an overall industry reflection? Awesome.

Let's look at what else is on that list:

Serenity the RPG (A real chart-burner I'm sure)

Mastering Iron Heroes

Not Iron Heroes itself, but the companion book.

Yeah that list is funky. It reflects books that aren't good enough (or are out of print) to actually invest in a dead tree copy. I'd say that looking at the list of best-sellers on drivethrurpg, it's all B-rate and C-rate games.

When BESM 3rd edition is "nipping" at the heels of your platinum sellers, you're not selling much.

Oh, and about my FLGS stocking oWOD, that's actually an intentional effort to supply the relatively recent surge of interest in Masquerade by finding used books. They went years without stocking any oWOD.

Anyway... when you boil it down, what I am saying is true. There's enough of an interest in Masquerade to warrant White Wolf easing off on a 6 year hard rule of letting oWOD die. To the point that they're issuing "official" conversion documents for a game that's the better part of a decade out of print. Also, according to your blog post link, they're "getting out of the RPG" business and betting the farm on an MMO... based in Vampire The Masquerade. It lends evidence to my argument that WW went and released a game that has zero inherent conflict in it. So much so that when it comes time to boil down the game to it's essence for a computer game/MMO, they have to go back and exhume the rotted, bloating corpse that they pissed on and shit all over to see if there's still some nostalgia and interest that they can gin up.

Edits: Goddamn spell check...

[TheFlatline]

First you said:

The whole "MMOG is oWoD" is patently false. The developers stated they are combining elements of both games. Pretty much the only oWoD elements they're using are the metaplot.

Then I said:

I love how they're going to take the metaplot from oWOD but nothing else. How, pray, do you use Masquerade's metaplot without the cam, sabbat, clans, and other setting shit? The metaplot and the setting are kind of intertwined.

Then you said:

Beats me. Maybe they're making a new metaplot to fit a new iteration of the World of Darkness. Everything is up in the air as far as we know. They don't have a website or anything.

Dude, I don't know why you had to take a break from all the posting you do on the white wolf forum to come here and wave a flag like an idiot, but you're not winning any converts or battles here. You sound like a fanboy dork.

When you google "world of darkness mmo" like the second link says "World of Darkness confirmed, based on Vampire: The Masquerade".

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/09/24 ... masquerade

[magnuskn]

2.) Will they be wise enough to shitcan Achilli, who, IMO, was the driving force for every shitty change in both versions of the WoD ( including erasing Robert Weinbergs contribution to canon and not having him write the third trilogy of novels )?

2. Yeah right. If he's been on board for 10 years or so now, he ain't going nowhere.

<sigh> I can hope, can't I?

[Don Strudel]

I'm not trying to win any battles or converts. I've never played one White Wolf game in my life, because I could never get a group together. I just like reading the books and discussing their relative merits. I like nWoD and oWoD equally, because they cater to different playstyles: introspection versus action-movie.

I'm just saying what I've heard. The developers have said the following:
1) the MMOG will have metaplot-like elements because MMOGs need those for some reason
2) the game will cater to themepark, coffeeshop, and sandbox gameplay
3) the MMOG will combine elements of both iterations of the PnP, so it's probably a new iteration
4) Justin Achilli is the creative director
5) the MMOG will not affect the tabletop because they have different needs
6) the exclusive trailer they showed at the convention described vampires as "cast out of Eden," which contradicts the Masquerade origin myth

[fectin]

I'm not trying to win any battles or converts. I've never played one White Wolf game in my life, because I could never get a group together. I just like reading the books and discussing their relative merits. I like nWoD and oWoD equally, because they cater to different playstyles: introspection versus action-movie.

Boring is not a playstyle. Tabletop RPGs are a really, really bad medium for introspective stories. All the crunch is dedicated to conflict creation and resolution; if there's no conflict, there are no rules. If there are no rules and no conflict, you're playing the world's saddest game of magical teaparty.

Seriously, that's like watching a Noh production of Waiting for Godot: by the time you've heard the description, all the fun is gone, and all the bathos in the world ain't gonna make it any better.

[Username17]

The reason why World of Darkness Gypsies is the worst book isn't because there aren't game out there that glorify horrible worldviews or bad behavior. It's because the Rom are an actual persecuted minority in the real world who suffer from real prejudice. It would be like making "World of Darkness: The Jew" that got all their facts from The Protocols and Inquisitorial testament. Or making "World of Darkness: Magic Negro" that ostensibly let you play Bagger Vance or John Coffey, but got most of their facts from Metapedia.

It would be pretty silly to make a book about Scottish people filled with weird bullshit Scots powers and poorly researched Scots stereotypes. But stereotypes about Gypsies have a context. And that context is not good.

World of Darkness: Gypsies is a book that fed upon and contributed to a culture of fear that is claiming the real lives of real people. It is very likely that that book genuinely contributed to actual acts of violence against innocent people in the real world - making it the worst RPG book ever written by a substantial margin. Probably making it the worst RPG book that ever will be written. The chances that someone somewhere was beaten and left to die in a gutter who would not have been victimized had that book never been written is much much higher than the chance that FATAL ever contributed to the real rape of a real person.

The content is only sickening and vile - and admittedly there are real RPG books whose content is worse. But the context of that content makes it far more dangerous than any RPG book I am aware of. Not even RaHoWa could have had as negative an impact.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Who wrote that book? And what are they doing right now?

[Username17]

Who wrote that book? And what are they doing right now?

That was Teuwynn Woodruff. She did some work on Magic the Gathering a few years back and now works for Loanshark Games, which does mercenary game design for other companies. So she likely did some sort of creative direction for the American Idol CCG, for example.

In this industry, you fail up.

-Username17

[Ganbare Gincun]

It would be pretty silly to make a book about Scottish people filled with weird bullshit Scots powers and poorly researched Scots stereotypes. But stereotypes about Gypsies have a context. And that context is not good.

Great to see that the United States does not have a monopoly on racism. /facepalm

[mean_liar]

It is very likely that that book genuinely contributed to actual acts of violence against innocent people in the real world - making it the worst RPG book ever written by a substantial margin.

It's a shitty book due to its shitty content, but... seriously? You think some Eastern European jackoff read an American English RPG book and then it fueled his Rom-rage?

That's a pretty fucking amazing leap of logic.

[Username17]

It is very likely that that book genuinely contributed to actual acts of violence against innocent people in the real world - making it the worst RPG book ever written by a substantial margin.

It's a shitty book due to its shitty content, but... seriously? You think some Eastern European jackoff read an American English RPG book and then it fueled his Rom-rage?

That's a pretty fucking amazing leap of logic.

Or some Italian. Or Spaniard. Or Frenchman. Or whatever. And no, it really isn't.

Lynchings occur because they remain thinkable. Every time you perpetuate the racist caricatures of oppressed minorities you make those kinds of behaviors more thinkable to a new generation. I don't think that anyone seriously questions that this sort of thing helped incite violence against Jews, why would you think it is anything of a stretch to say that equivalent portrayals of Rom people would help incite violence against them?

People spread those stereotypes about Rom people and then people firebomb homes the Rom people live in and kill their children. Really. In the 21st century even. Writing those stereotypes into a book for popular consumption is beyond irresponsible. It is literally spreading hate.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

I'm going to have to side with mean_liar here. Frank's argument boils down to a gigantic hyperbole where an RPG book somehow has the same kind of effect as a true hate-book like Mein Kampf.

There, I Godwinned. Now can we stop arguing over this entirely stupid issue?

[Koumei]

Mean liar, the racist fuckwits barely need provocation at all. They'll leap on any excuse, so yes, I'm pretty sure some people have read it, and then as a result gone on to commit hate crimes against the Roma.

However if you wish to counter with "But that kind of fuckwit would have done so anyway at some point - they'll grab any excuse and run with it, so the book could very well have no actual impact" then I'll give you that point, though you can't actually show evidence for what could have happened in an alternate universe.

Also Scotsman: the Sporrin wouldn't work, because the Scottish are known for forming clans (if we're going with stereotypes based on hundreds of years ago), and clans are already taken by vampires.

But now I want to see Scottish vampires. It is something that is sorely lacking in this world.