T4E – The Five (Six) Roles

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tzor
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T4E – The Five (Six) Roles

Post by tzor »

I promised I would talk about how I thought roles should be viewed as opposed to how they found their way in 4E. This is it.
Why roles? Why not have classes and be done with it? That’s a really good question and one needs only to look back at the various editions in D&D to see the answer. Classes can suck and many traditional classes have been downright horrid. The idea is to crack down the so called “classes” to their core components. This way, a proper group of adventurers can be designed for maximum enjoyment.

Note: When I write about roles, I mean “combat roles.” Eventually we need to write up the social system (there is but one system and its name is simple; hasn’t anyone learned from the mess that was the original AD&D), and then we can define both combat roles and social roles (and they can be different). I want to talk about “combat roles” and how they fit into classes. I’m going to use a lot of metaphors here for combat; American Football will be a very common one. (Chess may seem like an obvious one but in that game no piece has any defence whatsoever; they attack you and you die.)

The Attacker: This is called the “defender” in 4E but I believe the defender should defend. The attacker is the basic form of fighting. The basic notion of an attacker is that he goes from point A to point B attacking every enemy in his path. Let’s think of this in football. The quarterback passes the ball to the running back that goes straight up the middle bashing as many people as are currently in his way. In a more modern war approach, these are the people who stormed the beaches at Iwo Jima and Normandy. It’s good old hack and slash, and really, there’s nothing wrong with a little hack and slash.

The Defender: This is the “hold the line” type of guy. It’s not like if the guy in front of you dies, you move up; you hold the line. You are keeping them from attacking your important roles in the party. You can move up, but only as a line. In football these are the guys on the offense that block the attackers from getting to the quarterback. In the 18th century age of muskets, these were the men who formed the musket line of fire, moving up only as a group (this is a good point to mention that different styles work with different roles, although the classic musket did have a bayonet for when the enemy was in melee range).

The Striker: The goal of the striker is to “avoid the middle man.” Unlike the attacker who would not want to avoid the person in front of him, least he have the person in front of him now attacking his back, the striker avoids all opponents in-between himself and the goal. He can do this by two methods, ranged attacks or stealth that avoids defender’s blocking him or attackers getting attacks of opportunity. Now one might suggest that these are two separate notions and probably should be placed in their own roles, but in fact even a range weapon user needs to be able to avoid the middle man when that middle man attempts to enter melee. In football, we can see the striker as the wide receivers, or the running backs that don’t go up the middle but run around the line. In most warfare, we would call these people sharpshooters, or (gasp) Rangers.

The Controller: So far we have been dealing with man to man combat, with one of those men being the person in question. But what if you want to influence someone else’s combat? The controller, “arranges” the battle field, forcing attackers to move in some directions and not in other directions. There really is no equivalent in football, but in 18th century warfare, there was a controller of sorts. That was the canon. The canon wasn’t the same as would be seen in the next century. It was a bull in a china shop, throwing a ball that would bounce down the field taking out whoever was in front of it. (Remember, break a leg, especially with a compound fracture and it’s either death or amputation.) Green troops would panic at the sight of one of those coming. Good defenders would rejoice that it didn’t hit them, be relieved that it’s hard to move one of those canons and keep moving slowly forward along with the rest of the remaining line. Changing the terrain and causing emotional responses that gets the opponent to move as you want them to is control.

The Leader: The leader provides his expertise to aid and assist his allies in whatever means are at the leader’s disposal. “Hey Joe Fighter, watch out for that Troll to your right.” The knight in shining armour, George Washington on his white horse, are both leaders in the very classical sense.

Finally, we have the Sixth role, one designed mostly for NPC use. The Sidekick: The sidekick is always by someone else’s side, always working with the other, helping the other, defending the other, allowing the other to get a combat advantage. Batman had Robin, the Green Hornet had Kato and so forth. Probably boring as all get go for PC use, but a great role for NPC characters and monsters.

Classical example: So you have your classic combat condition, two grunts (defenders) a big guy you want to take out and a sidekick. The attacker heads right towards the two grunts (one against two … no one ever said they were smart). The striker goes around the grunts to aim for the big guy only to be intercepted by the sidekick who wants to protect his guy. The controller then through terrain changes or mind control changes the attitude of the second defender so they don’t dog pile on the attacker. The leader then gives a warning to the striker to allow him to avoid the sidekick,

Note at this point I never really defined what their basic things are. Are they using swords, or magic, or whatever. That is determined by another parameter. Sword users can literally be all roles. Magic users can be all roles. Some combinations have classic class names, some do not. I would like to call the second item, for the moment the “Source” (so far I have four sources, might, dexterity, knowledge and wisdom that correspond roughly to fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric).

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

I think your definition of Controller equates closest to the position of Strong Safety, or perhaps a coaching position like "Defensive Co-Ordinator"

Not sure what I think otherwise.
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Post by Parthenon »

If you have two characters fighting each other, a Striker who wants to kill the princess hiding behind the throne and a Defender trying to stop the Striker, then does the Striker automatically get past the Defender? If so, then while the Defender stops the Attacker, it doesn't interact with enemy Defenders or enemy Leaders and it loses to Strikers and Controllers.

So, out of 5 roles, the Defender is useless against 4 roles and merely stops the attacker. The Defender role, as you have it here, is almost useless.

The Defender should be better than everyone else. Full stop. Just like in-combat healing should do much more than merely heal one wound a round, the Defender role should shut down multiple Attackers or fully stop a single Striker, all the while ignoring a Controller at the least.

Then, what exactly does the Leader actually do? As in, for a lot of games the players will talk out of character during combat, being backseat drivers or suggesting tactics. They'll say things like "Hey Joe, watch out for that Troll 3 squares to the right."

What does a Leader actually bring to the game that isn't superseded by the players talking? Unless of course you want to make it a rule that the players can't have out of character conversation at all, and only the Leader can discuss the game.

Really though, you still haven't answered the question: Why Roles?

You have said that classes can suck. Well so can roles. Why make an extra classification of roles to then make classes if you can instead make good classes in the first place? How does knowing their core components help designing for maximum enjoyment. You seem to have missed a few stages in your explanation there.

If you were doing this to, I don't know, possibly cut down the classes into the different roles to be able to work out the minimum a class needs in order to not suck, and then to make sure that no class overshadows others in too many ways then that is explicit, and we can evaluate your roles in terms of that.

But as it is, I'm not quite sure even what you consider a role to be, let alone why you want them or how they would be used.
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Post by tzor »

Well, first of all, Parthenon, I’m trying to go with a basic 4E approach in some ways; this is not Stratego, where one type of character automatically takes out another type of character. This is, basically a foundation where abilities will be placed and assigned. So the striker will have abilities that will allow him to avoid the defender; the defender will have abilities that will allow him to hold the line while at the same time defend against strikers. A doesn’t trump B and B doesn’t trump A, but are two different approaches to combat that are resolved by feats and skill.

The second point of 4E is the pursuit of the fantastic. 4E combat is “chess” like in that there are a lot of chess like moves. Swapping places (castle) is common as is avoiding opponents (the moves of the knight piece). Thus the leadership role extends abilities to those allies when needed, either as “interrupts” or as a part of the leader’s natural turn. So it’s more than a free use of words, the leader can allow the opponent an ability that he would not otherwise have, let’s say, for example, to be able to move a square to avoid the flanking situation.

So while we see a controller using abilities to keep the enemy down and his side with the advantage, the leader uses his abilities to specifically aid and help his side. Remember these are general concepts that mesh with all the other dimensions of the character. The Wisdom Leader (aka the stealth cleric) could give healing surges at a distance. The strength leader could allow allies extra moves or attacks.

Before I go back to the question, why roles. I want to ask you this question, “does this make any sense?” The classical definition of a class has always been “fluff down,” starting with fluff and trying to make some meat on the bones that makes sense. The classical definition of a “party” has always been the vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, orange combination of the cleric, wizard, fighter and thief. But no one really plays that. What is a “ranger” anyway? What is a “paladin?” Ask five people and you will get six answers for each question. So roles (and sources) provides a base framework for designing a party (this is what their combat stick is) and how they can fit together to make a team. The classic model of “four idiots who can’t work together” is stupid, no matter how many cartoons they make from the model.

It also will be useful when I start to think about the real devil in the details, the multiclass or the person who can do many things half well. I haven’t really thought this out yet, but I’m going with the idea of an X and a backup Y. A “backup” is where you can swap out lower level abilities with lower level abilities from either another source or role. So your defender defending a princess (hey they have to be high level to defend royalty) might have a backup role of sidekick. So you can imagine a striker managing to get around the defender, arriving at where the princess only to find the defender there (using a sidekick ability) and the princess over there and now running away.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Parthenon wrote:So, out of 5 roles, the Defender is useless against 4 roles and merely stops the attacker. The Defender role, as you have it here, is almost useless.
Well the offensive line just about never touches the football*, and are generally not regarded as "skill" positions - but a good o-line makes or breaks the rest of the offense by protecting the QB and creating gaps for running plays.



*blocking tight ends and masochistic half-korean wide receivers aren't technically members of the o-line
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Post by tussock »

Combat roles defined that tightly are nonsense unless you limit the game to a chess board and the opponents to doing nothing more than you.

D&D combat is about setting the opening range, softening up the enemy (or destroying them quickly at range), charging the gap (or preventing closet trolls doing the same), and tearing them up in melee if you have dominance there.

But the game lets characters specialise in ranged or melee, and then wants melee no more powerful than ranged. Oh dear. So Guy A wants long range destruction and keeping away, and Guy B wants short range charges and dominant melee. The first is destroyed by a fast charger, the second by a horse archer. They hate each other. It splits the party every time you roll initiative. Also, Guy A is the Wizard, can hold range, prevent melee, and wins.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

tussock wrote:Combat roles defined that tightly are nonsense unless you limit the game to a chess board and the opponents to doing nothing more than you.
But the point here is that in many ways 4e did limit the combat phase of the game to options that were nearly that tight - and did so without the sort of close consideration of what the tactical roles should be within those constraints.

I'm still not sure if I agree with Tzor's ideal breakdown of combat roles as he's presenting here - but I am all for Tzor (and anyone else who wants to) doing these sorts of brainstorming/breakdowns and analyses of how roles might be made to work more usefully than they did in 4e.
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Post by JonSetanta »

I appreciate Tzor's efforts on this.

4e has some redeeming qualities. You just have to polish that turd until it shines.
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Post by Parthenon »

I've had this going through my mind every now and then, and I think I was playing Devil's Advocate for a large part. I agree about the usefulness of roles and I think they could be really useful.

But in many ways I disagree with your roles. I really don't like the Attacker role because everyone should be able to attack. A battlefield controller can do both the Controller role and the Defender role at the same time, showing that these roles don't differentiate PCs enough.

In your description of the leader role and the leader role is too limited to the minimap. While writing this post I've had a rethought and think that this could be a good generic role if better defined.

Heres my suggestion of the roles. I'm debating the buff and debuff role because they are relatively passive and I'd prefer all the roles to be either active or reactive. With these roles everyone would get damaging abilities and possibly each PC would get two roles.
  • Harry - this role reduces the effectiveness or cancels an enemy's action on a per action basis. The most reactive of the roles.
  • Debuff - This role reduces the effectiveness of enemy actions over time. Unfortunately it can easily be pretty passive, but if kept an active role it will work fine.
  • Move - This role moves enemies or PCs to where the character wants them to go. Whether by throwing, telekinesis or hitting them with a fuckoff big hammer so hard they go flying, they move characters around.
  • Arrange - Probably the most powerful role since it can completely cancel enemy actions, this is either creating walls/thorns etc, or throwing a table in the way, or pulling down a pillar to stop movement etc.
  • Buff - Improves the effectiveness of party actions over time or allows them new options. Like debuff this is pretty passive once up and I can't see an obvious way to make it an active role.
  • Setup - This opens up an enemy so that party members have more effective/new options against them. Tripping, throwing sand in their eyes, a burst of light etc can set up an enemy for attack on a per action/round basis. (Needs a better name because "setupper" is a shit word)
  • Entrap - For when you really need to stop an enemy for a while, this role takes the PC and one enemy out of the action for a round or more. Whether grappling, a fast and furious combo that keeps them on the defensive for a while or focusing on eldritch tentacles to keep them still, this stops you and the enemy but leaves you open to anyone else. This is possibly a subset of the Harry role.
  • ( There is also possibly the Avoid role, which can escape entrapment, gets extra movement options/powers to escape harriers and get past an arranger's efforts. )
This list has seven (eight) roles that describe what a PC can do specifically, let alone the generic role that everyone has of Attacker. To me this makes sense because you can not only see what a PC can do but how multiple PCs can interact together to fight.

As well as that, if only the Harry role is reactive then there are fewer immediate actions and interrupts going round since not all classes try to perform that role at once.

You can then see how this relates to the ones suggested in the OP.
  • Attacker - everyone can perform the attacker role.
  • Defender - the harrier, mover, arranger and entrapper can perform the defender role, showing that "defender" is too openended and can be done in too many ways to be really useful.
  • Striker - there isn't really an analogue of this role because anyone can perform this role when the rest of the party helps them do so. I can see how the "Avoid" role could be an eighth role though and have retroactively added it.
  • Controller - this role is too open ended as well, since movers, arrangers, and to some extent harriers can do this role.
  • Leader - setuppers, and buffers can do this role, but I can see how this could be a good role.
Last edited by Parthenon on Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

sigma999 wrote:4e has some redeeming qualities. You just have to polish that turd until it shines.
It's like a shit dorodango.
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Post by tzor »

Parthenon wrote:But in many ways I disagree with your roles. I really don't like the Attacker role because everyone should be able to attack.
First of all, with any system there is always a problem with using terms; if I were writing this up formally I would probably use more description and examples. Design, detail and then summarize, and the summarization would be the initial descriptions.

With that, anyone can fight, few people can really attack. To wade into battle completely on the offensive. To be like a Conan the Barbarian in battle, or perhaps a He Man. (Or to use another example a Fafhrd - The Gray Mouser would be more of a Striker - both fight well, and both fight well together, but their styles are somewhat different.)

Attackers are used to being godpiled by the enemy. Whirlwind attacks, Dogpile degrapple, are things in the attackers pile of tricks.

In addition this applies to other forms of sources. A wizard, for example could use things like a key hole fireball (*)




(*) A "Key Hole Fireball" was a 1E AD&D spell invented by one of my friends at R.P.I. It was basically a fireball centered on the caster with a space looking like a keyhole rotated on it's long axis that protected the caster from the initial fireball. The somatic component was a fist pump.
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