The Shadowrun Situation
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That's the incongruity to me, since (as an American) I have no idea who the hell Wirtz (Wirths?) was. I would have assumed that the effort required to find Wirtz out as a historical figure would have also led to information on his role with respect to Auschwitz.hermit wrote:I am actually amazed he even found Wirtz.
Also, a fine teehee for mission finale cadre of mages and spirits in a Background Count 4 area.
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I'm going to dig out the 'Designation' mess here and point something out.
Until now, magic and tech in SR didn't mix. You couldn't use tech with magic, and magic with tech, except for a few minor tricks, like the Aura Camera, or those awakened plants making up a Barrier.
Designate breaks that barrier and freely interacts with advanced tech - different signals, encryption and targeting software of any system, be it artillery, or fighter-bomber...
What stops the creators of the spell from making a 'Hack' spell? They've already managed to break the barrier.
Until now, magic and tech in SR didn't mix. You couldn't use tech with magic, and magic with tech, except for a few minor tricks, like the Aura Camera, or those awakened plants making up a Barrier.
Designate breaks that barrier and freely interacts with advanced tech - different signals, encryption and targeting software of any system, be it artillery, or fighter-bomber...
What stops the creators of the spell from making a 'Hack' spell? They've already managed to break the barrier.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Having a 'Hack' spell would really hurt the setting, but it's not the worst idea they could come up with. Letting an AI learn to cast magic would destroy the setting, I hope by saying it here and now that means they can't use it.
Last edited by Juton on Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It took me a few minutes of searching in google to find usable detail on him. So I too have no idea how someone could know about him and not know what he did and didn't do.mean_liar wrote:That's the incongruity to me, since (as an American) I have no idea who the hell Wirtz (Wirths?) was. I would have assumed that the effort required to find Wirtz out as a historical figure would have also led to information on his role with respect to Auschwitz.hermit wrote:I am actually amazed he even found Wirtz.
- Stahlseele
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i still don't have a reaction regarding the use of the designate spell as a means of making oneself immune to guided weapons O.o
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Don't expect a response. Slow pretty much did about as much damage as you're going to see. People's bullshit filters can only take so much before the outrage sensors close down and they retreat to their own ingrained sensibilities.
The vitriol got hot, the author got defensive and the battle line got shifted to the greater CGL vs. Them discussion which most people have already entrenched themselves on. That's a fight CGL has been working at for a long time and they can hold out as long as they have that license to print money by putting "Shadowrun" on whatever they feel like.
Personally I think Designate is far and away worse than Slow. Because while Slow has a confusing a painfully explained bit about orientation to a gaiasphere, the author came out to clarify that Designate negotiates encryption to "fool" a Pilot or System. Short of hacking spells that puts them on a level of intelligence and magical susceptibility they did not previously have.
I'd love to see that argued on the official forums, with a conversation involving Jason Hardy on why he wants to take the game mechanics in that direction and bridge that particular gap. Even an interview would do, or a static write up where he explains his reasoning. But that isn't going to happen because CGL doesn't need to address shit to carry on working, and for my money I don't think Jason CAN have that conversation.
The vitriol got hot, the author got defensive and the battle line got shifted to the greater CGL vs. Them discussion which most people have already entrenched themselves on. That's a fight CGL has been working at for a long time and they can hold out as long as they have that license to print money by putting "Shadowrun" on whatever they feel like.
Personally I think Designate is far and away worse than Slow. Because while Slow has a confusing a painfully explained bit about orientation to a gaiasphere, the author came out to clarify that Designate negotiates encryption to "fool" a Pilot or System. Short of hacking spells that puts them on a level of intelligence and magical susceptibility they did not previously have.
I'd love to see that argued on the official forums, with a conversation involving Jason Hardy on why he wants to take the game mechanics in that direction and bridge that particular gap. Even an interview would do, or a static write up where he explains his reasoning. But that isn't going to happen because CGL doesn't need to address shit to carry on working, and for my money I don't think Jason CAN have that conversation.
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I don't like to disparage a guy, but Jason Hardy doesn't know the rules. He tried answering a rule question, once, and he failed hard. Really really hard. It wasn't even a difficult question. There was no time limit involved. He could have asked someone who did learn the rules for help, but he didn't.
Not to say I'm much better. I would easily say Frank's better at rules design than I am. I mean, considering some of my rules fuck-ups in the past. There were some whoppers.
Not to say I'm much better. I would easily say Frank's better at rules design than I am. I mean, considering some of my rules fuck-ups in the past. There were some whoppers.
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Yeah, but at least your rules fuck ups are funAncient History wrote:I don't like to disparage a guy, but Jason Hardy doesn't know the rules. He tried answering a rule question, once, and he failed hard. Really really hard. It wasn't even a difficult question. There was no time limit involved. He could have asked someone who did learn the rules for help, but he didn't.
Not to say I'm much better. I would easily say Frank's better at rules design than I am. I mean, considering some of my rules fuck-ups in the past. There were some whoppers.
Well, some of them.
Anyway, I just posted this over on DS if anyone is interested:
Fan letter to CGL
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1025264
Everyone feel free to check it out if you're so inclined. I don't feel so bad about being home alone right now if AH is posting at this hour.
As for the rules thing, CGL obviously ignores them. And that's bad. They do need someone like Frank. To be honest, I'm not always good with rules, but i have my moments. I know the guy who was behind most of the numbers involved in a Polish game Wolsung, and he's really good. Thanks to his support, the game has good working and fun-supporting rules.
Last edited by Kot on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Magic and tech should mix, and if they weren't supposed to then Object Resistance and the delineated Limits of Magic would mention something.Kot wrote:I'm going to dig out the 'Designation' mess here and point something out.
Until now, magic and tech in SR didn't mix. You couldn't use tech with magic, and magic with tech, except for a few minor tricks, like the Aura Camera, or those awakened plants making up a Barrier.
Designate breaks that barrier and freely interacts with advanced tech - different signals, encryption and targeting software of any system, be it artillery, or fighter-bomber...
What stops the creators of the spell from making a 'Hack' spell? They've already managed to break the barrier.
The only problem with Designate is that its intelligent, not that it mixes tech and magic.
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But it's functionally intelligent, because it can break encryption, and anywhere else you need a hacker and a slew of actions to do that.Kot wrote:No, it's not intelligent. You can't talk to it, it can't act on it's own. It's a magical, always working hack program.
How long would it take a hacker or techno to find the wireless of the weapon, decrypt it, exploit it and send it the new information? How difficult would that be?
Most of all, WHY MAKE A SPELL THAT DOES THAT?!?
Last edited by Otakusensei on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Breaking encryption doesn't make it intelligent. It just makes it mimic decryption programs. It just makes it a magic-to-technology interfaced tool for mages. And that' wrong enough.
And as for why, there's a thing most people who make these up say:
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
And as for why, there's a thing most people who make these up say:
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
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My beef, and why I say it has functional intelligence, is that the spell has to basically do math in order to decrypt. It handles a matrix action without the use of a program.
Can it do that without Exploiting the node first? Or does it do that, instantly getting the appropriate permission level as well?
I guess we're really just arguing about the size of the hole that sunk the Titanic here, but it still pisses me off how off the wall that spell is.
Can it do that without Exploiting the node first? Or does it do that, instantly getting the appropriate permission level as well?
I guess we're really just arguing about the size of the hole that sunk the Titanic here, but it still pisses me off how off the wall that spell is.
It doesn't have any intelligence. You're trying to explain something, that is wrong - the designator uses a pulse-code. Which the spellcaster has to know, and use to designate the target for his own artillery/airforce.
He cannot know the enemy code, unless he managed to obtain it. And memorizing these would be a serious problem.
I think whoever made that spell up, didn't think, or know about the code.
He cannot know the enemy code, unless he managed to obtain it. And memorizing these would be a serious problem.
I think whoever made that spell up, didn't think, or know about the code.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
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Actually no. The caster doesn't need to know anything and doesn't need to have line of effect to the artillery launcher. He just marks the target and all launchers automatically interpret that as a correct designation. This was confirmed by the author of the spell. And that is why people are pissed off. Because Shadowrun magic can't do that.Kot wrote:It doesn't have any intelligence. You're trying to explain something, that is wrong - the designator uses a pulse-code. Which the spellcaster has to know, and use to designate the target for his own artillery/airforce.
-Username17
Wait, so it doesn't fake one pulse-code, it makes all launchers see one thing as something different- one launcher sees it as, for example, code 3X00S, while a different artillery piece sees the exact same thing as DANGER?
Isn't that like creating an illusion that you appear as everyone's individual best friend with their voice, style of talking and so on? Or having a spell that makes whatever signal you send appear to be the correct password to the computer you are trying to hack?
Isn't that like creating an illusion that you appear as everyone's individual best friend with their voice, style of talking and so on? Or having a spell that makes whatever signal you send appear to be the correct password to the computer you are trying to hack?
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Yeah. It is a physical illusion that creates potentially different digital images to different machines that you don't necessarily see or even know about. It's a no-no on many levels.
But beyond that, the thing you're supposed to use it for could be done with a 500¥ designator pen. So it's worthless for its intended purpose, but opens up many many cans of worms. What with it being a spell that creates digital information that is capable of bypassing encryption that the caster is completely unaware of and being a physical illusion that is perceived differently by different observers despite that not being how physical illusions normally work.
-Username17
But beyond that, the thing you're supposed to use it for could be done with a 500¥ designator pen. So it's worthless for its intended purpose, but opens up many many cans of worms. What with it being a spell that creates digital information that is capable of bypassing encryption that the caster is completely unaware of and being a physical illusion that is perceived differently by different observers despite that not being how physical illusions normally work.
-Username17