sabs wrote:It's pretty simple really.
In a world where Spell Casters end up with the power to destroy entire armies. The guy who gets to be in said army, is going to look a little silly.
At high-levels, mundane fighters become leaders of men, generals, faces.
The know people, have contacts, and have access to artifacts.
This is why really, I usually never play D&D above level 7 or so. The game breaks down as the Spellcasters start being able to take down vast hordes, and Fighters, well, at best they're part of the horde being taken down.
There is a nail-head you hit here that many dont understand. The nature of a game is to be played, and people want to keep playing. While i tip my hat to people that want to keep using the same character and playing it out for as long as they can rather than seeing the character as a pawn easily replaced by rolling another...the problem comes when they forget how to let go.
Do you need to play to have your character fighting gods in order to have fun?
D&D started as the simple man leaving home to become something greater. a game where rather than read the story, you become a part of it. the problem comes when people trying to tell greater stories that make sense for the game.
recently reading on another forum about a few things it occurred to me that MANY people dont know how or when or even WHY to retire a character.
You stop playing at level 7 for you reasons, and other want to play on for theirs, but how far do you really need to go? How far can ANY game really support? Will someone become Thor? one thread in particular i was reading was about "backstories" and it brought me back to remembering an old section of the DMG/PHB i take for granted others do not have access to anymore with recent editions. a character background is jsut some ideas on why the character is adventuring...events of sorts that happened and goals for going out in the world.
take the original game where you reached "name level" and got things like a keep and such. those are missing from recent editions because the goals have been moved to KEEP PLAYING forever. 2nd AD&D had 20 level written up, 3rd i think had the same then expanded to 30 with some books, and 4th...well everyone knows that has 30 levels...but do you need them all? and why?
it seems the reason is that people dont know when to start a new character and cant let go of an old one. the games of course want to offer this so they can sell more material, but, with the exception of 4th....you dont have to use every level.
AD&D2eR DMG wrote:Rate of Advancement
The AD&D game is intentionally very flexible concerning how slowly or quickly characters earn experience--in general, this is left to the discretion of the DM. Some players prefer a game of slow advancement, allowing them time to develop and explore imaginary personalities. Other players like a much faster pace and a definite feeling of progress. Each DM and his players will likely settle into a pace that best suits their group, without even realizing it.
There is only one hard and fast rule concerning advancement. Player characters should never advance more than one level per time experience is awarded. If a gaming session ends and a character has earned enough experience points to advance two levels, the excess points are lost. The DM should give the character enough experience to place him somewhere between halfway and one point below the next highest level.
An average pace in an AD&D game campaign is considered to be three to six adventures per level, with more time per level as the characters reach higher levels. However, it is possible to advance as quickly as one level per adventure or as slowly as 10 or more adventures per level. The DM should listen to his players.
If the players are enjoying themselves and aren't complaining about "not getting anywhere," then things are fine. If, on the other hand, they grouse about how they never get any better or they're quickly reaching the highest levels in the game, the pace of advancement probably needs to be adjusted. This, like much that deals with awarding experience, may not come to a DM immediately. Let experience be your guide.
Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.
the thing missing here, like most is when to stop advancing all-together.
but a gem hidden in the class section, and for no small reason it exists:
AD&D2eR DMG wrote:Above 20th Level
Theoretically, there is no upper limit to character class levels (although there are racial limitations). The material presented here takes characters only to 20th level--experience has shown that player characters are most enjoyable when played within the 1-20 range. Above 20th level, characters gain few additional powers and face even fewer truly daunting adventures.
Consummate skill and creativity are required to construct adventures for extremely powerful characters (at least adventures that consist of more than just throwing bigger and bigger monsters at the nearly unbeatable party). Very high level player characters have so few limitations that every threat must be directed against the same weaknesses. And there are only so many times a DM can kidnap friends and family, steal spell books, or exile powerful lords before it becomes old hat.
Retirement: When characters reach the level where adventures are no longer a challenge, players should be encouraged to retire them. Retired characters enter a "semi-NPC" state. The character sheets and all information are entrusted to the DM's care.
A retired character still lives in the campaign world, usually settled in one spot, and normally has duties that prevent him from adventuring. While in the DM's care, he does not gain experience, use his magic items, or spend his treasure. It is assumed that he has income to meet his normal expenses.
The retired character can be used to provide players with information, advice, and some material assistance (if this is not abused). However, his or her overall actions are controlled by the DM, not the player who originally created the character.
If at all possible, player characters should be encouraged to retire as a group. This way all players can create and play new characters of approximately the same level. If only one player retires his character to start a new 1st-level character while all the others continue with 20th-level characters, the poor newcomer can't really adventure with them. (If he does, the player won't get to do much or the character will have a very short life expectancy!)
Some players may be reluctant to retire a favorite character. Explain to these players that retirement doesn't mean the character can never be used again. Be sure to create special adventures that require those high-level heroes to come out and do battle.
Every once in a while the old adventuring group may have to reassemble to deal with some threat to the kingdom or the world. It's the chance to show those upstart new characters just what a really powerful group can do! It also gives the players the opportunity to role-play some the their old favorites.
If the players see the opportunity to use their powerful characters, even infrequently, they will be less reluctant to spend most of their playing time with new, lower-level characters.
Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.
While retirement is suggested at level 20, where the books leave off due to the system...the more important part is in bold.
how much of the same junk do you want to go through with this group of characters?
people laughed and got mad at racial limits to classes, but with no limits, they complain the game breaks even more, or when unified like 4th...all classes are the same.
so either dump classes, by using a classless system, or play D&D with its classes, and like sabs...realize that there is a point the game can stop and you can start again trying a new lower level character group.
Odysseus went 20 years in his epic journey to return back home...just a mortal "fighter".
