So why is the Imperium viewed as remotely sympathetic?

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:08 am

I think the only sympathetic characters I know from the WH40K universe are the guys from the Ciaphas Cain - HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! novels. And even they are "shoot the xenos first, ask questions later!" fascist types. Only funnily written ones.

Granted, shooting first and asking questions later is a good survival strategy with every alien species but two in the 40k universe...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:12 am

humour can help one handwave a lot of things in a book. Consider the line "Sergeant, hand me another elf, this one's split" from Grunts.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:19 am

The fluff would be better if the space marines where more like the starcraft marines.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:44 am

Dude... you do know that Starcraft was originally going to be a 40k RTS... and that basing the space marine fluff off of starcraft is like opening a temporal rift of incestuous suck, right?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:07 am

Sure, buts lets face it. Is the 'cold fusion' cut scene from starcraft the most memorable cut scene from any game in recent memory?

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:07 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Yeah, even some of the official writings sometimes slip back into talking about Space Marines as if they were highly competent and sympathetic GI Joes like Starcraft Marines are.

And now you're slipping into the same tendency you're talking about. Starcraft Marines are supposed to be a bunch of criminals and violent psychopaths, whose homicidal tendencies were redirected towards the enemy. By brainwashing. With a bunch of similarly brainwashed political dissidents thrown in for a good measure as of Starcraft 2.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:38 pm

I was much happier not knowing that.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:46 pm

Regarding SC Marines:

It actually depends. The bulk of the Confederate's forces were unwilling and brainwashed conscripts, but very many volunteer and militia forces also exist. In particular, Umagon maintains a purely volunteer force raised by their democratic society, and they only mobilize/conscript troops if there is a clear and present danger.

On the other hand, the Korpulu sector is also kinda rife with guys like Tychus Findley, who don't need resocialization to be a violent psycopath

.

magnuskn wrote:I think the only sympathetic characters I know from the WH40K universe are the guys from the Ciaphas Cain - HERO OF THE IMPERIUM! novels. And even they are "shoot the xenos first, ask questions later!" fascist types. Only funnily written ones.

Granted, shooting first and asking questions later is a good survival strategy with every alien species but two in the 40k universe...

It's actually worth noting that Ciaphas very often refrains from shooting his own men. Amberley Vail (Ciaphas' lover and editor) frequently notes that Ciaphas could have simply shot troops on many occasions and saved himself the trouble, but refrained from doing so and found alternate ways to keep everyone alive.

That being said, Amberley herself is hardly a stereotypical inquisitor. She actually seems to have a semi-normal social life and understands the concept of "Don't play with fire with your bare hands".

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:58 pm

cthulhu wrote:The fluff would be better if the space marines where more like the starcraft marines.

It's worth mentioning that the original Spess Mahreens were a lot like that, from what I've heard. Badass space cops and reformed criminals in power armour, with wicked-cool beaked helmets. Of course, this was back when the EMPRA was alive. Then again, I've received all more 40k lore from /tg/ and 1d4chan.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:22 pm

You mean from the time of Rogue Trader?

Yeah, they were much less wanked back then. Albeit it was also around the age when they actually had a badass Space Cop army too (Adeptus Arbites) that was modelled on Judge Dredd.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Zinegata wrote:It's actually worth noting that Ciaphas very often refrains from shooting his own men. Amberley Vail (Ciaphas' lover and editor) frequently notes that Ciaphas could have simply shot troops on many occasions and saved himself the trouble, but refrained from doing so and found alternate ways to keep everyone alive.

That being said, Amberley herself is hardly a stereotypical inquisitor. She actually seems to have a semi-normal social life and understands the concept of "Don't play with fire with your bare hands".

Oh, I know and I was thinking about going into detail on that... but then only a few will have read those novels and know what we are talking about.

It should be noted that while Cain and Vail have a generally pleasant demeanor, their whole mindset still is very "Empire of Men"-like, which means that they view their fascist dictatorship culture as great and that they look on other species as heretical vermin. Which, as noted above, is a good survival strategy with the vast majority of aliens in 40k.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:27 pm

Well, most of the stuff Cain and Vail fight are the unambigously "bad" races - Tyranids and Necrons who can't be reasoned with at all.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:11 pm

Yeah, besides the Tau in the first novel, Cain had next to no contact with them again or the Eldar. But they are mentioned often enough in the books that you get a good idea of the mentality even a pretty nice guy like Cain has on them. Vail... well, she is Ordo Xenos.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:45 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Dude... you do know that Starcraft was originally going to be a 40k RTS... and that basing the space marine fluff off of starcraft is like opening a temporal rift of incestuous suck, right?

It's not too far beyond real events: the Tyranids began as Roswell-ish alien types that made secret cults (genestealers), but they had a cosmetic overhaul to resemble the Zerg more.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:55 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:
Maxus wrote:Also, The Imperium is human.

We are human.

People are more likely to sympathize.

Plus, there's a vague chance that somewhere inside the Imperium's million worlds, normal life is happening
I think it's also that Space Marines, in general, in whatever story they're in, are seen as good, hard working, "Hey, let's grab a beer," "Just following my orders, Ma'am" kind of guys. Possibly because Sci Fi typically uses humans as a stand in for America, and Eagleland begins to creep in.

Hell, a trailer for Starcraft II showed the space marines walking into a derelict ship with what seemed to be a bomb, before stopping somewhere, setting up a few compact sized charges, and opening what was actually a cooler full of beer to bunk off for a bit between "getting the job done" and "how long they're expected to need to get it done".

That's why Space Marines, and their faction, are typically perceived sympathetically, because they're marines, and marines, largely, are seen as good, hard working men, who love their mommas, follow orders, have a drink or two, and... I don't know, play poker, work on ranches, and smoke marlboros, or some other "Manly Man" shit on their free time. The soldiers are sympathetic, and thus, the audience extends that sympathy to the people who deploy them.

Completely this. It would take very extreme extenuating circumstances for me to root against space marines in any senate. That's why it was bad form for Cameron to characterize the aesthetics of the "evil mercenaries" from Avatar exactly the same as the extremely likable and heroic colonial marines from Aliens, if he wanted me to root against the blue space Indians (I didn't; the Burke stand in character might be an evil douchebag, but humans are still humans, and humanity is ostensibly my team).

Ironically, I fucking hate all humans (misanthropy) in all settings where an alien alternative is not involved, like real life (go figure).

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:49 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:I didn't; the Burke stand in character might be an evil douchebag, but humans are still humans, and humanity is ostensibly my team).

Ironically, I fucking hate all humans (misanthropy) in all settings where an alien alternative is not involved, like real life (go figure).

I'm actually the opposite, in any setting where one has a choice to be something else, I hate humans. But in settings where there is no alternative, welll... "If you can't be what you love, love what you are."

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:20 am

I've been playing my brother's shiny new copy of Dawn Of War, which is reminding me that I really, really hate Eldar. explain things instead of shooting the guys who didn't know you were there and want to do exactly the same things as you!

No wonder the Imperium hates them so much.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:12 am

Eldar also tend to be annoyingly angsty.

When the Imperium is confronted with a problem, they at least choose to blow the problem up.

But the Eldar? Nooooo... they have to be all broody and mysterious and whine from time to time about how their souls are gonna be eaten by the God/Goddess of Kinky Sex unless they totally absorb themselves into making origami.

And really, their master plan boils down to "Let's all die and create the God of Death, which will kill the God of Kinky Sex!". If they just told the Imperium, the humans would say "Sure! We can kill you all!"

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:54 am

name_here wrote:I've been playing my brother's shiny new copy of Dawn Of War, which is reminding me that I really, really hate Eldar. explain things instead of shooting the guys who didn't know you were there and want to do exactly the same things as you!

No wonder the Imperium hates them so much.

Well, that's because the Eldar are not really those nice fluffy guys as they are portrayed in the first Dawn of War. If you want to get a good look at their real mind-set ( as portrayed in the splat books ), then play Dawn of War 2. They'd sacrifice without thought billions of human lives to just save a few of their own species.

Hence the two sides don't get along with each other very well.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:40 am

You'd think they'd save more of their own lives by avoiding the process of antagonizing the humans. Sure humans probably won't be an out and out ally of them but you'd think they'd at the very least open talks in order to try to avoid making a worse enemy of them. Aren't the Tau marginally more friendly toward other species?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:06 pm

The eldar's plan never even makes sense. Any of the available options for what they are trying to do (Kill everyone else? Try and save themselves? Save the universe? Kill everyone who might have to do with Slannesh? Kill Slannesh?), none of them match up with observable actions, and everyone who writes anything for them just adds another layer of retarded, incomprehensible plotting over the top, to the point where nothing makes sense.

Like, for example, are the Harlequins trying to do the same thing as the rest of the Eldar? If yes, why do they seem to work at cross purposes in some of the novels. If no, then why the fuck do the rest of the Eldar let them hang around. Of course the third option is they are working to the same goals, and it's part of the master plan that they work at cross purposes at random, but at that point the actions they take may as well be 'spin the fucking roulette wheel' from any narrative perspective and it's absolutely pointless.

Or - I the plan is to kill yourselves to summon Khorne (who already exists, so this also makes no fucking sense), why do some of the farseers run around doing random shit to try and save the craftworlds in the future. What are you even doing?

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:37 pm

I'd chalk that up to different sub-factions doing their stuff at cross-purposes. A faction of several billion beings should have rivaling agendas with each other.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:34 pm

Yeah, but that's the weird thing - they are also presented as not doing that and the farseers are happy to help each other out. It's fucking baffling.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:05 pm

I consider the whole WH universe, 40K and fantasy, too stupid to bother trying to make sense of it.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:08 pm

The only way I can make sense of it is through the lens of parody.