The Shadowrun Situation

[Otakusensei]

Jason is a writer, you can make your own calls as the the quality of his writing. His work so far on Shadowrun reminds me of a new GM who is running a game, but really wants to write his novel/fanfic. So you end up knee deep in characters who, interesting or not, are not being played by you and a plot that you don't entirely know or understand because you don't have the script.

Or a map.

[fectin]

Brown nipples aren't really that wierd. Why is that a selling point?
It's like, "and she's 5'8" ".

[Orca]

Its less the colour and more the fact that we know the colour, because some author put the effort into describing them.

[sabs]

the spygames story line seems to be "We're redoign the Treaty of Versaiile, and everyone is going to try and screw each other over! what fun!"

[Surgo]

I don't know if it's possible for me to care any less about Shadowrun's shitty NPCs. Why do they pollute books with this nonsense?

[Username17]

Also, since it has been brought up repeatedly but only refered to, what IS their Spy Games storyline,

The treaty of Denver is going to be redone, the PCC is up for a no-confidence vote, and the Ute shares in the PCC are going to mature into voting shares. And Aztlan is working behind the scenes to influence the proceedings.

That's the actual "plot". Aztlan may or may not get the PCC to deliver an entirely symbolic protest against Ghostwalker. Coup excuse. Maybe.

and what is their idea for Horizon?

Jason nixed the early ideas because he doesn't want to allow or include anything having to do with memetics, brainwashing, subliminals, or anything else that involves using science to influence behavior. So the new adventures are ones in which the players play intrepid reporters, filming Aztlan doing "stuff" in order to turn the tide of the war.

Seriously. Aztlan is winning the war against Amazonia, but Horizon gets them to stop wining by getting shadowrunners to film them killing people, which makes them embarrassed or something, so they stop winning.

-Username17

[Archmage]

Jason nixed the early ideas because he doesn't want to allow or include anything having to do with memetics, brainwashing, subliminals, or anything else that involves using science to influence behavior.

Is there by chance any stated reason why Jason doesn't want to use staple genre material? You'd think he'd never read any cyberpunk material whatsoever.

[Username17]

Jason nixed the early ideas because he doesn't want to allow or include anything having to do with memetics, brainwashing, subliminals, or anything else that involves using science to influence behavior.

Is there by chance any stated reason why Jason doesn't want to use staple genre material? You'd think he'd never read any cyberpunk material whatsoever.

Thanks again for submitting a proposal for the Horizon adventures. Im sorry to say that I did not accept your proposalthere were several proposals submitted, giving me lots of good options for only three slots. Probably the biggest qualm I had with your proposal was its approach to mimetics I know memes are often compared to viruses, but I think if we go too far with that and have them spread involuntarily from mind to mind and do significantly harmful things, we open up a whole lot of troublesome ramifications Im not sure I want the game world to deal with.

Yeah. It's like he never read Brainscan. Or Wintermute. Or Diamond Age. Or Snowcrash. Or... any cyberpunk fiction at all.

-Username17

[fectin]

Seriously. Aztlan is winning the war against Amazonia, but Horizon gets them to stop wining by getting shadowrunners to film them killing people, which makes them embarrassed or something, so they stop winning.

This would be the defensive war which Aztlan is fighting against tree-loving isolationists over the unfriendly attitude of trees Aztlan planted near their border, right?

If it didn't make any sense before, why start now?

[TheFlatline]

Jason nixed the early ideas because he doesn't want to allow or include anything having to do with memetics, brainwashing, subliminals, or anything else that involves using science to influence behavior.

Is there by chance any stated reason why Jason doesn't want to use staple genre material? You'd think he'd never read any cyberpunk material whatsoever.

Thanks again for submitting a proposal for the Horizon adventures. Im sorry to say that I did not accept your proposalthere were several proposals submitted, giving me lots of good options for only three slots. Probably the biggest qualm I had with your proposal was its approach to mimetics I know memes are often compared to viruses, but I think if we go too far with that and have them spread involuntarily from mind to mind and do significantly harmful things, we open up a whole lot of troublesome ramifications Im not sure I want the game world to deal with.

Yeah. It's like he never read Brainscan. Or Wintermute. Or Diamond Age. Or Snowcrash. Or... any cyberpunk fiction at all.

-Username17

I'm pretty sure I have an adventure called "dreamchipper" in my SR collection about BTL simchips that turn people into murderers and criminals. How is that okay, but anything involving mimetics not?

I'll say it again: Jason doesn't want Shadowrun to be cyberpunk meets fantasy, he wants a future fantasy game. Shit, even the Matrix functions sort of like an astral realm only using data instead of mana.

And frankly, I have played enough fantasy games in my life that I am totally burned out on fantasy, even future fantasy. Fantasy basically has come to mean that if there's a problem or issue or shortcoming in the setting, magic is the universal kludge to handwave the issue.

[hermit]

The treaty of Denver is going to be redone, the PCC is up for a no-confidence vote, and the Ute shares in the PCC are going to mature into voting shares. And Aztlan is working behind the scenes to influence the proceedings.

That's the actual "plot". Aztlan may or may not get the PCC to deliver an entirely symbolic protest against Ghostwalker. Coup excuse. Maybe.

So the grand idea is that Aztlan, 12 years after being kicked from Denver by Ghostzilla, now got their arse up and want the PCC - guys who hate their guts - to go tell Ghostzilla that Aztlan is not pleased that he booted them a decade ago? Did I get that right?

I mean, it's good that the treaty is redone, so nobody feels the need to nuke each other over YotC. But what is the point? If Aztlan would be going to kill Ghostzilla off, and the PCC would face dissent by Ute (the troublesome NA nation) about having been absorbed and made second-class citizens with no votes, and Aztlan would use that to make them rebel and fuck the PCC back ... okay. Then you could also write a Horizon smear campaign campaign.

But this seems like another badly thought out plot. Oh, and how does this tie into War!? Because, like, Aztlan's also at war with Amazonia, who have no stake in that at all?

Jason nixed the early ideas because he doesn't want to allow or include anything having to do with memetics, brainwashing, subliminals, or anything else that involves using science to influence behavior. So the new adventures are ones in which the players play intrepid reporters, filming Aztlan doing "stuff" in order to turn the tide of the war.

Seriously. Aztlan is winning the war against Amazonia, but Horizon gets them to stop wining by getting shadowrunners to film them killing people, which makes them embarrassed or something, so they stop winning.

Because, like, Aztlan is like the US, and filming them pile naked Amazonians and make them stand on chairs naked and hooded will bother Aztlan, because it's Reputation would be ruined. It'S not like they got away with genocide twice already and nobody cared, and that SR gameshows ever since Shadowtech also involve naked standing on chairs and being electrocuted and this is afternoon entertainment.

And the great resolution of what is up with Horizon, and finally making them less of a sore and more of a worthwhile addition to SR is ... a campaign where the runners film Amazonia killing people. In a war. Because you do not kill people in a war.

Did I miss anything?

His work so far on Shadowrun reminds me of a new GM who is running a game, but really wants to write his novel/fanfic. So you end up knee deep in characters who, interesting or not, are not being played by you and a plot that you don't entirely know or understand because you don't have the script.

Or a map.

Good analogy.

I think if we go too far with that (...), we open up a whole lot of troublesome ramifications Im not sure I want the game world to deal with.

Bitter irony is bitter.

[raben-aas]

And frankly, I have played enough fantasy games in my life that I am totally burned out on fantasy, even future fantasy. Fantasy basically has come to mean that if there's a problem or issue or shortcoming in the setting, magic is the universal kludge to handwave the issue.

I was at that point before, and switched to Cyberpunk 2020 (with a little updating to tech and feeling, by including certain items of CyberGeneration (namely the ISA, but no mutants). I had great 10 years playing CP – maybe you should try it out.

After my 10+ years without magic I returned to SR (call it nostalgia) and after a short WTF episode (SR4, wifi, technopranksters, whatever happened to my world) I'm getting comfortable playing SR again.

However, I still like my SR to be more cyberpunk than fantasy, I always hated Harlequin with a passion, I think Worlds Without End is a crime against humanity (the whole notion of "french musketeer lizard people meet stone folks and pixies aboard a flying sailship" ED being the 4th world is, actually) and my willing suspension of disbelief stops somewhere before the Companion, but ... well, it's a whole world waiting, so if no one actually forces me at gunpoint to go with shitty Deux-Ex-Machina plotlines, Uberdragons and Theranmancers, I can cope with a lot of BS happening elsewhere (hey, I played VtM – need I say more?).

SR was like that since 1st edition.

Granted: IF Shadowrun would take a 10 years break from "the next even more ubermagic event/NPC", I would be more than happy (and will keep voicing that opinion), but I see no problem with offering various plotlines/setting ideas/options for people to use OR to ignore(!).

After all, there ARE fans who love ED stuff, and threads like "I need ideas for my group of toxic mages to beat the shit out of immortal elves" keep popping up.

I can understand how anyone could get the impression that SR fans love stuff and stories about overpowerful items or people – heck, all those Masquerade players had to end up playing something else, and VtM Metaplot was ALL about superNPCs – but I think that people who love the cyberpunk in SR shouldn't be silent about it.

SR could use a little "down to earth" thinking.

Considering Nadja: She's a factor that can easily be ignored, as can Denver (sorry for all those who live there). SR has always been a game where I had to ignore a lot of things, and I think there is little chance of that ever being different.

Just as long as there are no GLOBAL events anymore...

[hermit]

Granted: IF Shadowrun would take a 10 years break from "the next even more ubermagic event/NPC", I would be more than happy (and will keep voicing that opinion), but I see no problem with offering various plotlines/setting ideas/options for people to use OR to ignore(!).

After all, there ARE fans who love ED stuff, and threads like "I need ideas for my group of toxic mages to beat the shit out of immortal elves" keep popping up.

Yes, like me. However, that idea is stupid, and I am very annoyed by the handling of the whole crossover issue ever since, at least, YotC.

1) So they wrapped up the Horrors arc in the Dunkelzahn trilogy books. Fine with me, it was getting out of hand. And then introduce a fucking Horror invasion in YotC (the Shedim are Horrors, pure and simple, they use Horror-only powers - energy drain - and have a hard time passing over but once here they're here to stay, they consume life...) - what the fuck. Also, the main idea of SR is that dragons are not a gigantic I Win-card. A couple Sea Saber missiles and no GD has any chance (actually, two, since they can use their fuck fate power only once each turn) - soak 120D, bitch. Area damage. Byebye Ghostwalker.

2) ED magic is weak. WEAK. Please, someone needs to remind them. ED magic is nothing like D&D magic just because both are magic-heavy worlds. Now, if you start quoting the Book of Harrow, then yes, that's seriously powerful magic. Then again, the BoH is the equivalent to nuclear weapons. Everyone would be after you if you seem to have a hint of knowledge about this tome. It's what made Thera Thera. It'S seriously hardcore. It's like - I dunno, a genetech treatment that can turn people into mages. That game breaking kind of powerful. Should be kept out of hte setting. Probably, the BoH magic doesn't even work yet because Mana's too low, and you end up trying to run Win7 on an ancient Intel Pentium. And then drain kills you.

3) Immortal elves are still elves. They have human fallacies and faults, and usually, those are exaggerated. Many of them are druggies, highly obsessive, or just plain out mad. They had a head start, but they are not uber people. They may know lots of stuff, but that also makes them fucked up. They may be able to use magics nobody else knows but choice dragons, but they usually only fuck things up. They're not superheroes, not even supervillains. They're people cursed with prolonged life who don't know what to do with themselves. Like Great Dragons, no instant I-win card. You don't need toxic mages to beat the shit out of them anymore than to beat the shit out of a dragon. You just need to get past their screen of spies, security, and catch them off guard. Like with any high value target, be it corp CEO, mafia boss, or high-level government member.

4) I like Harlekin, as a character, though he needs to be taken down a peg in terms of power. I also like the idea ofpure astral quest adventures, but those are for a special clientele and need to be cleared with the players beforehand so as to not piss them off. Many GMs seem to think zapping characters away on H2 is a fun idea. Actually, it isn't, and just manages to get people up in arms. It also is lazy gMing because it doesn't in the least consider the moticvations, personalities and plots of the PCs.

I liked Worlds personally, mostly because it portrayed the IE not only as hypermagical but also as highly dysfunctional. That's a change from before. I also could live with Tairngire going down - it wasn't made to last - but I hate how that's been handled (and Horizon is far more annoying). For a wrapup of the Artifacts campaign, I'd rather go with something like the artifacts gathered, the ritual disturbed, the artifacts destroyed. And Harlequin saying something like "this is not our world anymore" and going off depressed. Because it isn't. That's not to say the Immortals don't have a place in this world. But it doesn't revolve around them. Think less the Aliens from Abbyss and more the Aliens from Transmetropolitan.

But, I'd like to keep settings like Britain and Tir na nÒg intact, more or less. I don't think every last setting needs to be 'accessible', as in have such gaping holes even a pants on their heads stupid player can play a character there and survive. There's need for those, but also need for high-security settings that require subtlety and do not cater purely to pink mohawk. Forcing Pink Mohawk style on any setting is stupid and makes every setting the same dumbed down shit. Such settings are prime places to make your runners be more careful, for spy-oriented campaigns, and to place the big bad, because it's senseless that a villain lives in the barrens and you can just kick in their door and kill them dead with your panther from day one.

And we had enough ubermagic. We need to have magic take a backseat for a while. We need corp-driven plots again (like, a plot where Horizon disintegrates, making way for one of the second-row Megas to rise to AAA-dom, instead of all these AAA megas mysteriously popping up out of nowhere all the time). We need a resolution to a number of political plots, from the Denver treaty to Aztech/Aztlan and the Gestalt, to the NEEC and the Chinese States. SR needs to refocus on crime, corps, war and politics. There's room there for magic too, for references to the distant past, for dragons, and immortal elves. But they're not all there is to the setting's metaplot.

And for your deity of choice's sake, don'T bring back well-hated NPC sues just to bring them back.

[raben-aas]

"And we had enough ubermagic. We need to have magic take a backseat for a while. We need corp-driven plots again (like, a plot where Horizon disintegrates, making way for one of the second-row Megas to rise to AAA-dom, instead of all these AAA megas mysteriously popping up out of nowhere all the time). We need a resolution to a number of political plots, from the Denver treaty to Aztech/Aztlan and the Gestalt, to the NEEC and the Chinese States. SR needs to refocus on crime, corps, war and politics. There's room there for magic too, for references to the distant past, for dragons, and immortal elves. But they're not all there is to the setting's metaplot."

All signed.

[sabs]

I'm a big giant Earthdawn Fan. I love Earthdawn, I love Shadowrun and I love the cross overs. That being said, most of the Immortal Elves stuff pissed me off. ANd I agree with Hermit, we need more politics and more war, and more crime. But shadowrun magic has become so powerful, much more powerful than Earthdawn. I can rationalize it. ED has a negative background count pretty much everywhere of at least a 1 and often a 3. And yet they still perform well. But I don't want more crazy Ubermagic shit in future books. I want Corp on Corp action, I want a resolution to Denver. Ghostwalker, much as I love Icewing.. makes Denver hard to play. It's like al this Berlin shit is going on, but if you go too far a Giant petulant claw comes down and smashes you. I'd be happier with Ghost Walker went and did something else somewhere else.

But really, I have lost all hope that Catalyst can write something decent.. fuck Fan Pro didn't.

[hermit]

Actually, you can even refocus on corps and have your immortals at the same time. Since TT didn't work out, the idea that the immortals try and muscle their way into Telestrian isn't so weird. Maybe Telestrian makes up with the court and joins the Danaan companies and itself together for, I dunno, ElfyCorp. Those immortals are children of strongly feudal societies, and that should have shaped thier peception of the world forever. They should be pretty happy with a corporate society. They could even try and get TT back that way, pushing to reform the state to become a company-owned/incorporated state like Pueblo. That sur ewouldn'T be worse than Horizon. Also, make a couple immortals shareholders, but not high-profile board members, and wham, you got them in the plot in a way that is not uber magic. Treat themlike Lofwyr. Done as that dragon is, he is highly magical and yet not godzilla. That's done right, IMO. You could do the same for Telestrian. Anyone who wants elves can use that corp. Anyone who doesn'T can just ignore the elves or use them in a non-elf related way.

Oh, and the Seelie court isn't a worldly government. That needs to be spelled out because it seems to be lost on many writers. The Seelie court queen isn't the elf ruler, she's the elf pope. The IRL pope that is; SR revived the popal state, I'm aware of that. And while Benedict can exert influence, he cannot just go and tell Berlusconi what to do about taxes or whether or not to buy a second aircraft carrier, or to stop fuking minors and be caught.

Also, what's been grating me for some time now is the whole Aztech wears the evil hat trope. That's overdone and is getting downright ridiculous (and given the ideological tendencies among SR authors lately, I begin to wonder if that's not just some American kick the Mexican kind of thing going). We need an adventure where Aztech is not ChrysalisCorp from Cthulhutech. We need missions where helping Aztech is the GOOD choice, and not helping them EVIL. We need incentives for runners to ally themselves with Aztech. Maybe a warriors' code of loyalty among the relevant employees, whatever. Aztech should be more than the guys with the evil hat.

Also, the setting needs to bury Horizon, have it take several heavy strikes and lose AAA-dom to a AA corp. Why not something from South America? They'Re pretty underrepresented in the setting anyway. Or some corp from China. Or maybe a Eurocorp.

Finally, where the HELL did Seretech go. That needs to be solved.

[raben-aas]

I agree with most of that – except with the Azzie thing. Azzie has had the evil hat for time immemorial, and there may be players/gamemasters/rounds who like that pulpish "evil corp" thing.

I am more than happy if all other corps get a little more greyish, and Aztech stays the Pentex of SR (although that would be the AG Chemie really). Let those who like to fight an inherently evil corp do just that. There are enough other corps to explore all kinds of two-sided, difficult issues of good and bad.

[hermit]

Zeta-Impchem uses up African children like other corps use up mice. Proteus is basically a collection of evil fortresses full of Frankensteinesque madness. AG Chemie is the big blighter. MCT took up the actual demon worshippers whom Aztech kicked out. NeoNET inherited the Body Bank, Halberstam's research and also is doing horrible things tomancers on principle. And finally there's GENOM of Switzerland, which could as well just call themselves NaziCorp for all their involvement in the vilest racist circles in SR.

It's just a little weird Aztech gets singled out like that, with somuch more evil to go around (the one thing I liked about the German setting is that it used different EvilCorps for a change). Because Aztech is supposed to sell consumer goods and have a good image, while many of the above corps could care less. And frankly, setting up every plot so that Aztech loses isn't doing the idea of it being EvilCorp any good either. This isn't Masters of the Shadowverse where SkeletorCorp mysteriously never loses actual power from being a series of epic fails.

But that's a pet peeve of mine. Yes, the setting pretty much needs an evil corp. Aztech just is a kind of a weird choice, especially since they're no more evil than SK or any other weapons-oriented mega anymore. The guys looking to bring doomsday? They're members of MCT Arcane Reseach Unit 13 now, with some arguably having strayed to Tamanous.

And on a non-Aztech note: The Eurocorps and Asiacorps, especially Baihu, Khouang (sic), Meridional and Lusiada, could use some more exposure. Second-tier corps in general.It's, like, there are 30 of these in canon and nobody ever mentions them.

[raben-aas]

Aztech gets more "evil attention" because it has worn that label longer than every other corp, plus Aztech is bigger than most other corps you are naming.

I'm not arguing that there are corps that are WAY more evil than Aztech, just like there are corps in RL that are WAY more evil than Coca-Cola, or Facebook, or Google – BUT they are popular brands, and that's why news about them being evil or doing evil stuff gets much much more attention.

The thing where you are right is that meanwhile it's getting a little difficult to imagine why ANYONE would by Aztech goods – some ingame ads would do WONDERS, here.

http://76.my/UserImages/Items/1010/13/QiLing@1.jpg

[hermit]

Aztech gets more "evil attention" because it has worn that label longer than every other corp, plus Aztech is bigger than most other corps you are naming.

Or at least been more visible, yes. It's just my pet peeve.

Indeed, ingame adverts really help there. And doing away with that glossing over, non-immersive style of describing locations in general. Hrm, we might want some small ads and insert boxes for alt.War too ...

That's a cute.... thing. What does it do?

[raben-aas]

That's a cute.... thing. What does it do?

The Aztech HW553 isn't quite pocketable but it's certainly portable. Weighing just 40grams, the device is a wireless portable router which turns a person into a mobile wireless hotspot.

The HW553 comes with support for most 3G/3.5G modems and supports the 802.11n wireless technology so it's always ready to go when you are.

The device doesn't actually come with a 3G modem as it has a USB port that accepts and has drivers for most of the common USB 3G/3.5G modems on the market. Aztech claims the device supports more than 80 types of 3G modems.

If you already have a wireless service provider with such a modem, it's usually a matter of plugging it in to the HW553 and it'll just work.

Apart from USB modems, the HW553 also accepts regular ADSL modems which use an Ethernet connection and has an additional USB port on the back that accepts portable hard disk drives or even a USB printer, allowing you to access those devices on your network.

http://www.aztech.com/sg/mobilebroadband_hw553.html

[sabs]

What makes Aztechnology evil.. is that they're the Russians. You have to remember, this is a cold-war era roleplaying game. Someone needed to be the big bad russians, and Aztlan/Aztechnology got the puck.

Also, I don't think Horizon needs to get nuked from orbit. I like Horizon...
it just needs to have it's shadow-image muddied. We need more sinister. This Do No Evil Google crap is.. well crap.
Even Google does Evil.

When ever I run games:
Horizon is the Gaming/Entertainment Mecca company. They're run at the very top by AI's who are masquerading as excentric figures who only give VR interviews. The typical Horizon Exec, is a soulless TV executive type. With no morals. If it gets ratings it's good.
Horizon runs legitimate Blood Sports.
MMA (Cybered, Awakened, Mixed)
Power Boxing
Combat Bike
Urban Brawl
Desert Wars!
Survivor!
And other Matrix shows of that ilk.

but they also run black-market Matrix entertainment.
Prison Gangs!
SimWar! (where you get to control a real person in a first person shooter style game.. with real bullets. j
And many other death for entertainment things.

[Ancient History]

The sad thing is, part of the idea of SR4 was to take Shadowrun back to the streets. We didn't want great dragons and immortal elves sniping at each other in a supposedly underground-but-public forum anymore. The first couple of books tried to be...well, street-level. Runner Havens, Corporate Enclaves, and Feral Cities feature the bare minimum of gigantic magical whatsits. Even in Ghost Cartels some effort was made to keep things real - hell, I hated the magic angle and I was one of the people that ended up trying to make it workable. I just wanted a nice little drugwar.

Well, they didn't sell. People buy Immortal Elves. They buy stupid magic stuff, and overpowered guns, and the ability to play special butterflies. If SR came out with a book called Overpowered Shit That Would Break Your Game, they wouldn't be able to keep it on the shelves.

Even when we were stuck with the Dawn of the Artifacts/Harlequin's Gambit plot, there were attempts to not repeat the railroading of previous Harlequin products. I should know, because I wrote the proposal. I still think it was one draft away from the point of least possible stupidity.

[sabs]

People like high end stuff. People like to feel like they're saving the kingdom, and defeating the big bad. It's why D&D is still the big giant kid on the block.

You do need fluff with crunch.. it's true. And one of the things I liked about the AZT/AMZ war aspect, was going to be the clash of Steel vs Magic. Cyber vs Spells. I wanted to see that well thought out and done right.

AH is my read on Horizon even close to correct? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part

[hermit]

Runner Havens, Corporate Enclaves, and Feral Cities feature the bare minimum of gigantic magical whatsits. (...) Well, they didn't sell. People buy Immortal Elves. They buy stupid magic stuff, and overpowered guns, and the ability to play special butterflies.

No offense, but that's making it too easy. The Berlin book, which is totally devoid of immortals or magic, sells extremely well in Germany, with the first run being out of print in a couple months (it was a short 1000 book run bit still, it's apparently out). You CAN interest people in non-high-magic settings. However, that requires work, and for instance in Runner Havens, some of the settings - notably Seattle - was pretty lackluster. Feral Cities had me wonder what to do with these settings (Chicago was nice, but sort of didn't pick up nonetheless). Corp Enclaves had a somewhat interesting Tokyo and an LA setting that is just ... stupid.

I agree it is probably easier to sell books the D&D way, but that works only if your clientele could care less about roleplaying and was interested in playing a hybrid tabletop/CCG anyway. But it'S possible to sell such a setting. Focusing the books on one setting instead of several and seriously fleshing that out, with a strict theme, lots of immersive details (ingame adverts, shadowtalk that isn't authors' commentary, ect) and taking your time to build the setting instead of moving on to the next would probably have been a better decision. A two-issue world factbook covering every nation in short terms and then focus books. at least, the focus books seem to work for Pegasus. Of course, could also be different expectations in seriously different markets, I dunno.

And for the record, I'm not so much about back to the streets as I am about away from D&D plots that handwaive everything with "magic, ladies and gents, magic". Corp, Cartel or Political plots can be pretty high level too. They just won't have weird magical ... things happening. Neither am I opposed to immortals, fart from it, but I'd like to see them integrated into the setrting more and not being portrayed as god-like.

And my gripes with Horizon is that it's an authors' pet, an AAA corp written up from nowhere (ZIC, Monobe and the other almost-megas must be intensely frustrated by now because this is the third time a new corp pops up from nowhere and gets promoted to the ICC for no discernible reason whatsoever) that is slammed down each player's throat as the GOOD GUYS, the COOL GUYS who make the NICE GEAR and YOU WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH because they're AWESOME. Not a single word about that they're not awesome anywhere. Seriously. The section in Corp Enclaves where there's supposed to be dirt on them says "Oh, do you know any dirt?" "No, do you?" "No. That's creepy." "Maybe they're just the good guys." <beat> "Maybe". In a world where every other corp is either in leagure with demons, bodysnatchers from another dimension, lovecraftian horrors, is run by a monster, or is run by a psychopath who considers genocide a career step upwards, that just seems stupid.

Blood sports aren't new in SR. SimWar! is a bit more extreme than Urban Brawl LiveSim, but not that much, and it requires way too many hosts to be viable. Entertainment in SR generally is pretty vile, with game shows that involve scenes from Guantanamo and blood sports like UB or Combat Biking standard. And that's UCAS TV, think about what goes on air in Caracas, Aztlan or via pirate channels. I could rather see them produce and sell really ugly pornography (ghoul rape/vore, giant/gnome vore, that kind of stuff) and take datamining to new, annoying levels, where a runner's grandiose gear spies on them (though I did that once but scrapped it because for the players it'd have been a TPK from out of nowhere).