I always thought claims that this would happen were just...

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:24 am

blithering hyperbolic nerdrage:

http://www.wizards.com/WPN/Sales/Articl ... ds_shadows

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:31 am

Holy. Shit.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:37 am

In all fairness, though, it is a pretty good idea and could be used to spice up encounters if done properly.

I've pushed for some time that D&D should have some kind of 'random chance' mechanic where you would hit the RNG at some random interval. For example, one of the PCs rolls a dice at the start of the encounter and it creates some kind of scenario. Scenarios such as:

The people in this encounter believe that one of the PCs have personally slighted them for some real or imagined reason. They will fight to the end, risk life and limb to attack this person, and have a -4 penalty to surrender checks. [Intelligent creatures only]
A contagion has been ravaging the area lately, automatically infecting all of the living enemies in this encounter unless specifically immune to a random disease. After the battle, the PCs must save against the disease or receive it, too.
The monsters have recently participated in a successful raid and are carrying better-than-average but mostly ornamental equipment. They receive a +1 to attack, damage, and defense. The treasure value of any equipment is doubled. [Equipment-using creatures only]

And so on.

Alternatively, we've kicked around several ideas the idea of universal player abilities that let PCs occasionally take control of the plot. Either they could go 'and here's when something happens' and they roll a random result, or they could have a specific one-shot ability that goes 'random NPC shows up and attempts to help the PCs'.

The problem is the marketing. Holy shit, are they completely unaware of how this makes them look? Even if it's a perfectly valid idea (which it is), dumbass grognards and stupid 3etards are going to use it as fuel for their 'OMFGMMORPG' arguments.

K · Post by K » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:44 am

Is anyone surprised? I mean, they turned DnD into a collectible light wargame to sell booster packs of minis, so why is the eventual CCGing of DnD any different?

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:46 am

What's wrong with this? Maybe I'm an MMO kiddie or a Grognard, I don't even know which this is supposed to appeal to. Seems like a sorta fun variant.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:15 am

Look at the sample cards, though..."target player rerolls a failed saving throw".

How is that 'spicing up an encounter'?

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:15 am

I think this would have had more credibility if it came out the same time as essentials. Now it seems like they are flogging the property for every last cent before they close up shop.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:50 am

I'm so glad I stopped playing the game of suck

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:57 am

people here are just NOW finding out about the Fortune Cards?

For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate

make sure you amplify your nerdrage accordingly to the quoted portion here.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:15 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Alternatively, we've kicked around several ideas the idea of universal player abilities that let PCs occasionally take control of the plot. Either they could go 'and here's when something happens' and they roll a random result, or they could have a specific one-shot ability that goes 'random NPC shows up and attempts to help the PCs'.

The blurb and the visible card abilities have nothing whatsoever to do with plot.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:44 am

Orca wrote: The blurb and the visible card abilities have nothing whatsoever to do with plot.

I know it's standard low-tier shit you'd see off of a trash drop or a throwaway feat, but c'mon. Give it a break. It's 4E. You aren't allowed to have abilities that alter the plot or narrative significantly without paying through the nose for it in the first place. If they did, it'd be a shocking swerve the likes of David Arquette and I'd probably become an instant fan of the game designer who proposed that.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:32 am

Booster packs of 8 cards a piece for 4 bucks using the random Magic booster system SUCKS.

If they had a deck of like 50 of these for 10 or 15 bucks I could probably go for it in theory, but having to buy 8 cards at a time for 4 bucks a pop sucks.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:45 am

The marketing is particularly icky, but I could see a use for purchasing individual cards at a game shop hosting a game day at $.5/ea. I'm assuming the hand is only meant to be a couple of cards in an encounter. Remove the production values and informally attach it to a decent ruleset and the idea is fine enough.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:52 pm

the idea is not fine enough! It's a fucking roleplaying game, not a collectible card game. Torg had cards as part of the experience, and that was fine. The cards came with the ruleset, and where amusing. Besides, Torg was a beer and pretzels game. This this..

HULK SMASH!

Is really the only appropriate response.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:02 pm

I reminds me of the Ars Magica plot cards, but... shitty. I see no downside to these cards, which really makes me hate them. They're a pile o' stats. HOORAY A +1 IT ONLY COST ME $0.50.

That's just awful.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:02 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I've pushed for some time that D&D should have some kind of 'random chance' mechanic where you would hit the RNG at some random interval. For example, one of the PCs rolls a dice at the start of the encounter and it creates some kind of scenario.

Gary Gygax beat you to it. See: psionics, possible random encounters with liches every time you visit a graveyard, possibility of a god/demon showing up whenever you speak its name.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:29 pm

I mean to say that the use of randomly determined temporary modifiers in an encounter is ok. I don't want there to be cards, much less to be entertained by little blurbs or 'artwork' on the cards. If I were in the habit of giving hasbro my money for content which is quickly made ubiquitous, however, it would be at the impulse buy level during a public game, which 50 cents each would hit. The booster pack model is lame, though.

And I suppose shitty games like 4e make more money fostering an adversarial relationship between the DM and players, so they could make DM cards with penalties.

edit: open tags. Yay.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:19 pm

Nebucadnezzar wrote: And I suppose shitty games like 4e make more money fostering an adversarial relationship between the DM and players, so they could make DM cards with penalties.

I think it'd be more important as a DM resource than as a player resource actually, because:

A) Penalties, as long as they aren't the boring kind like -1 to all attack rolls for the rest of the encounter, help shake players out of their Five Moves of Doom run more than providing bonuses.

B) Need to be on the DM side anyway, because otherwise players will try to avoid them in the first place. Duh.

This kind of thing needs to be implemented from Day One, though. Otherwise it just feels like a DM bought a book on Critical Fumbles and Cursed Items.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:22 pm

what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?

That's just bull.
D&D is a roleplaying game, not a collectible card game.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:36 pm

sabs wrote: what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?

It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'

The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:37 pm

sabs wrote: what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?

It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'

The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:48 pm

Part of running a good game is not giving your players a Ring of DooDad, or a Rod of I win!

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:58 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.

If it works the same as a CCG (e.g. you stack your deck with powerful cards and throw the rest away), then it's a straight power up for whoever has the most money, which is a dumb idea.

Having said that, I have no idea how it's supposed to work.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:57 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'.

But from a marketing / miser standpoint it is notably different, and I think that's what's causing the hostility.

Is there a master card list online somewhere? If so it's downright trivial to convert back to random chart format without having to buy stuff which runs $100/lb.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:32 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.

It has nothing do do with that it is a card.

These are like baseball cards and came in as baseball cards were going out being replaced by CCGs. The CCGs won because rather than jsut looking at them and trading them you could do things with them. Now these cards from TSR could be used as well, some are mini character sheets, you have items, monsters, NPCs, etc. They were colelctible because you could get the entire set, and useable because they could add to the game, but the cards weren't required to use Drizzt, a red dragon, or ring of protection.

Likewise for a non-collectible, get it all in one place type of cards there was:

lots of "decks" spell cards, magic items, psi-powers, encounters, monsters even.

You wanted them, you bought them.

By adding the "gamble" element into the purchase, and having to build a "deck" with what you can afford, then it is the CCG aspect that offends, not the cards. Power Cards are a part of 4th edition as is.

I dont know why it would baffle you, when NOTHING in D&D has had the CCG element prior where building random things was required to play. You had the CMG DDM, but you didnt need to buy minis and use them, and if you wantd them you have MANY other avenues to get them except from WotC.

This is a proprietary money grab. You can only buy these form one place, and for some things MUST have them.

As others have said, a simple Fate Chart could work just as well, or any of the other many ways to determine randomized acquisition DURING the game, but purchasing random products to play the game has NEVER been required before.

Not to mention the event cards were removed not too long ago because DMs had to deal with things that werent foreseeable to plan for when running the game.

Like CCGs, unless proxies are allowed, he who has the most money, has the best advantages...again a product turning D&D competitive rather than cooperative.

We could go on and on about people buying more splatbooks than other, but NEVER did they have to be allowed, unlike these fortune cards will be forced onto player and DMs alike.