I always thought claims that this would happen were just...
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- Invincible Overlord
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In all fairness, though, it is a pretty good idea and could be used to spice up encounters if done properly.
I've pushed for some time that D&D should have some kind of 'random chance' mechanic where you would hit the RNG at some random interval. For example, one of the PCs rolls a dice at the start of the encounter and it creates some kind of scenario. Scenarios such as:
Alternatively, we've kicked around several ideas the idea of universal player abilities that let PCs occasionally take control of the plot. Either they could go 'and here's when something happens' and they roll a random result, or they could have a specific one-shot ability that goes 'random NPC shows up and attempts to help the PCs'.
The problem is the marketing. Holy shit, are they completely unaware of how this makes them look? Even if it's a perfectly valid idea (which it is), dumbass grognards and stupid 3etards are going to use it as fuel for their 'OMFGMMORPG' arguments.
I've pushed for some time that D&D should have some kind of 'random chance' mechanic where you would hit the RNG at some random interval. For example, one of the PCs rolls a dice at the start of the encounter and it creates some kind of scenario. Scenarios such as:
- The people in this encounter believe that one of the PCs have personally slighted them for some real or imagined reason. They will fight to the end, risk life and limb to attack this person, and have a -4 penalty to surrender checks. [Intelligent creatures only]
- A contagion has been ravaging the area lately, automatically infecting all of the living enemies in this encounter unless specifically immune to a random disease. After the battle, the PCs must save against the disease or receive it, too.
- The monsters have recently participated in a successful raid and are carrying better-than-average but mostly ornamental equipment. They receive a +1 to attack, damage, and defense. The treasure value of any equipment is doubled. [Equipment-using creatures only]
Alternatively, we've kicked around several ideas the idea of universal player abilities that let PCs occasionally take control of the plot. Either they could go 'and here's when something happens' and they roll a random result, or they could have a specific one-shot ability that goes 'random NPC shows up and attempts to help the PCs'.
The problem is the marketing. Holy shit, are they completely unaware of how this makes them look? Even if it's a perfectly valid idea (which it is), dumbass grognards and stupid 3etards are going to use it as fuel for their 'OMFGMMORPG' arguments.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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- Master
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Look at the sample cards, though..."target player rerolls a failed saving throw".
How is that 'spicing up an encounter'?
How is that 'spicing up an encounter'?
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people here are just NOW finding out about the Fortune Cards?
make sure you amplify your nerdrage accordingly to the quoted portion here.For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate
Play the game, not the rules.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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The blurb and the visible card abilities have nothing whatsoever to do with plot.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Alternatively, we've kicked around several ideas the idea of universal player abilities that let PCs occasionally take control of the plot. Either they could go 'and here's when something happens' and they roll a random result, or they could have a specific one-shot ability that goes 'random NPC shows up and attempts to help the PCs'.
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- Invincible Overlord
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I know it's standard low-tier shit you'd see off of a trash drop or a throwaway feat, but c'mon. Give it a break. It's 4E. You aren't allowed to have abilities that alter the plot or narrative significantly without paying through the nose for it in the first place. If they did, it'd be a shocking swerve the likes of David Arquette and I'd probably become an instant fan of the game designer who proposed that.Orca wrote: The blurb and the visible card abilities have nothing whatsoever to do with plot.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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- Prince
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- Knight-Baron
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The marketing is particularly icky, but I could see a use for purchasing individual cards at a game shop hosting a game day at $.5/ea. I'm assuming the hand is only meant to be a couple of cards in an encounter. Remove the production values and informally attach it to a decent ruleset and the idea is fine enough.
the idea is not fine enough! It's a fucking roleplaying game, not a collectible card game. Torg had cards as part of the experience, and that was fine. The cards came with the ruleset, and where amusing. Besides, Torg was a beer and pretzels game. This this..
HULK SMASH!
Is really the only appropriate response.
HULK SMASH!
Is really the only appropriate response.
Gary Gygax beat you to it. See: psionics, possible random encounters with liches every time you visit a graveyard, possibility of a god/demon showing up whenever you speak its name.Lago PARANOIA wrote:I've pushed for some time that D&D should have some kind of 'random chance' mechanic where you would hit the RNG at some random interval. For example, one of the PCs rolls a dice at the start of the encounter and it creates some kind of scenario.
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Knight-Baron
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I mean to say that the use of randomly determined temporary modifiers in an encounter is ok. I don't want there to be cards, much less to be entertained by little blurbs or 'artwork' on the cards. If I were in the habit of giving hasbro my money for content which is quickly made ubiquitous, however, it would be at the impulse buy level during a public game, which 50 cents each would hit. The booster pack model is lame, though.
And I suppose shitty games like 4e make more money fostering an adversarial relationship between the DM and players, so they could make DM cards with penalties.
edit: open tags. Yay.
And I suppose shitty games like 4e make more money fostering an adversarial relationship between the DM and players, so they could make DM cards with penalties.
edit: open tags. Yay.
Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Invincible Overlord
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I think it'd be more important as a DM resource than as a player resource actually, because:Nebucadnezzar wrote: And I suppose shitty games like 4e make more money fostering an adversarial relationship between the DM and players, so they could make DM cards with penalties.
A) Penalties, as long as they aren't the boring kind like -1 to all attack rolls for the rest of the encounter, help shake players out of their Five Moves of Doom run more than providing bonuses.
B) Need to be on the DM side anyway, because otherwise players will try to avoid them in the first place. Duh.
This kind of thing needs to be implemented from Day One, though. Otherwise it just feels like a DM bought a book on Critical Fumbles and Cursed Items.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?
That's just bull.
D&D is a roleplaying game, not a collectible card game.
That's just bull.
D&D is a roleplaying game, not a collectible card game.
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- Invincible Overlord
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It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'sabs wrote: what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?
The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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- Invincible Overlord
- Posts: 10555
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am
It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'sabs wrote: what if I'm running a good game? and not some shitty pile of manure. with random encounters. I've crafted the encounters, I'm actually telling a story. And this crappy mechanic is going to throw randomly generated crap into my game?
The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
If it works the same as a CCG (e.g. you stack your deck with powerful cards and throw the rest away), then it's a straight power up for whoever has the most money, which is a dumb idea.Lago PARANOIA wrote:The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.
Having said that, I have no idea how it's supposed to work.
- Josh_Kablack
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Lago PARANOIA wrote:It's from a metagame standpoint no different than PCs going 'I call upon my favor the gods owe me to change the winds of fate!' or 'I activate my Rod of Wonder, which is more powerful in this edition but can only be used once a day!'.
But from a marketing / miser standpoint it is notably different, and I think that's what's causing the hostility.
Is there a master card list online somewhere? If so it's downright trivial to convert back to random chart format without having to buy stuff which runs $100/lb.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It has nothing do do with that it is a card.Lago PARANOIA wrote:The CCG reaction in this thread is predictable but is kind of baffling nonetheless. It's not really any different than the other loads of player doodads the game stuck in, but because it's in a CARD format it gets accused of being out-of-touch and a wannabe. Which it is, but not because WotC tried to stupidly marketize a good idea.
These are like baseball cards and came in as baseball cards were going out being replaced by CCGs. The CCGs won because rather than jsut looking at them and trading them you could do things with them. Now these cards from TSR could be used as well, some are mini character sheets, you have items, monsters, NPCs, etc. They were colelctible because you could get the entire set, and useable because they could add to the game, but the cards weren't required to use Drizzt, a red dragon, or ring of protection.
Likewise for a non-collectible, get it all in one place type of cards there was:
![Image](http://www.tsrinfo.net/archive/dd1/cr3.jpg)
lots of "decks" spell cards, magic items, psi-powers, encounters, monsters even.
You wanted them, you bought them.
By adding the "gamble" element into the purchase, and having to build a "deck" with what you can afford, then it is the CCG aspect that offends, not the cards. Power Cards are a part of 4th edition as is.
I dont know why it would baffle you, when NOTHING in D&D has had the CCG element prior where building random things was required to play. You had the CMG DDM, but you didnt need to buy minis and use them, and if you wantd them you have MANY other avenues to get them except from WotC.
This is a proprietary money grab. You can only buy these form one place, and for some things MUST have them.
As others have said, a simple Fate Chart could work just as well, or any of the other many ways to determine randomized acquisition DURING the game, but purchasing random products to play the game has NEVER been required before.
Not to mention the event cards were removed not too long ago because DMs had to deal with things that werent foreseeable to plan for when running the game.
Like CCGs, unless proxies are allowed, he who has the most money, has the best advantages...again a product turning D&D competitive rather than cooperative.
We could go on and on about people buying more splatbooks than other, but NEVER did they have to be allowed, unlike these fortune cards will be forced onto player and DMs alike.
Play the game, not the rules.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.