recent d&d deathwatch data

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:26 am

So in other words, nothing's changed then.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:41 pm

many are recently talking about how quick combat was in 2nd ass opposed to 3rd and 4ths drag out slug-fest.

2nd ed with all the options on is a nightmare. Quite cool for a few PCs against a couple of boss monsters where you want a short fight to feel longer, but in the day I didn't realise I should ignore all that shit when the mooks were in play.

Ignore WSF, use group init, only spellcasters announce, use a single monster type and tell everyone the AC so they can check their own hits. Then it's fast enough. But it's not exactly by the book either. It's also pretty ... simple.

4e's slow as shit because the monsters have twice as many HP as they should, your reusable attacks are a joke, and all the encounters are knife-edge (unless you optimise, then they're all just dull). Easy enough to fix, but you do have to pay attention either way because it's so fiddly.

3e's ... well, they're 3-round fights at the longest, with only a handful of opponents, and it can still be as slow as the other two. Lots of little things make it drag, and god forbid anyone throw in a grapple check. 24 Orcs and no spells left? Go home.

sake · Post by **sake** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:22 pm

Your pet editions of choice all fucking sucked without heavy house ruling that more or less rendered them completely different games than the RAW.

Now back to the bloody topic;

The much boasted about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium book and the lowerkey but apparently actually anticipated. Class Compendium book have both been quietly removed from WotC's schedule and amazon.

The magic item tier system has quickly become the Essential's line version of Skill Challenges. In that it's a much talked about feature that completely failed at the most basic level.

The Shadow power source, which people had been waiting for all the way back before 4E came out is more or less DOA. The Shadow book will actually just be goth-ed up versions of existing classes. Paladins and Clerics of Evil Gods , Mages who summon Undead (that will be worthless because they probably won't have the auto attack features that make the Druid and decent Wizard summons actually worth casting), a Warlock with a actually neat melee weapon gimmick (but that loses every warlock class feature that might have made him a good melee striker in exchange) and a Rouge that is... really not much different than a normal rogue except more 'spooky' and 'hardcore'.

The online character builder still makes generating a character actually slower than doing it by hand in some cases. And it's getting about the same level of support and effort the old CB did after release(read: little to none)

There is just plain NOTHING exciting happening on the official forums.

My money's on WotC letting the IP just silently die off over the next year and then sitting on it for awhile before making 5E. (If it was just WotC, they'd probably try for 5E immeditly, but Hasbro has the sense to know to put a failing franchise away and wait for the current audience to move on before relaunching it.)

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:28 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Nostalgia makes us think the past is better than what we have now, but that's not always the case.

It's not just nostalgia, it's the "mother duck" syndrone. (The newborn duck identifies the first large fluffy thing as its mohter. Likewise many people base their expectations of X based on the first version of X they experienced and measure all thing based on that version.)

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:41 pm

tzor wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Nostalgia makes us think the past is better than what we have now, but that's not always the case.
It's not just nostalgia, it's the "mother duck" syndrone. (The newborn duck identifies the first large fluffy thing as its mohter. Likewise many people base their expectations of X based on the first version of X they experienced and measure all thing based on that version.)

or what is actually better.

1st edition, hey this is fun
2nd, hey its 1st edition, but OMG i can find stuff a hell of a lot easier because of better book organization! fuck 1st now unless its released in better organized books.
3rd, what the hell did they do, and this is harder to read with some background iamge on every page, and the words wrapping around the stupid pictures, and there is too much shit for rules lawyers to destroy games.
4th, where is the game board at?

while for most things, yes people do identify with their first experience with something and relate all others to that for quality assessment.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:42 pm

DId you play 2nd Edition with the Optional Power point rules, and all the other optional rules? It was a gigantic clusterfuck of rules that a rules lawyer could have a field day with.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:38 pm

sabs wrote:DId you play 2nd Edition with the Optional Power point rules, and all the other optional rules? It was a gigantic clusterfuck of rules that a rules lawyer could have a field day with.

me? no i never used that player's options garbage, because the players had all the options they needed, since they can do or try anything.

remember chapter 5: Proficiencies of the PHB is ENTIRELY optional.

the fact you add all those needless optional things, does not make the system the problem, just you added too much. they were there IF you wanted to use them, you had some rules with which to go by, but you didnt have to use them...again 2nd edition has something very important that i show ALL players form the DMG....

The rules are only guidelines.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

the windows help file from the CoreRules, doesnt color code things as the books did, but there was a LOT of gray areas (literally the text block background was gray to indicate what rules you should try to use and which ones you could just flat out ignore) in the books which were optional rules.

my first look at player or DM options books was with the CoreRules, and the entire system just seemed stupid to me, and mine has been set to standard ever since.

the fact you yourself called it "Optional Power point system" should tell you you didnt have to use it and if it was causing you problems, to stop using it.

you can legally put as many mufflers on a car as you want so long as it minimally passes emissions and noise pollution regulations. just because you CAN put 40 mufflers on a car, doesnt mean you should take those options to do so...aka...just because you can do a thing, doesnt mean you should.

so frankly, it is your fault for using that optional stuff if it caused you problems.

i had a friend once that turned into a rules lawyer and surprised me. when creating the character i asked if they wanted to be handled starting equipment or buy basic equipment of their own choosing. they all elected to buy their own and i told them jsut buy what you can at the listed price while creating the character. later they wanted to buy something during the adventure and brought back i told them use the listed price, and i met his remark with "oh? you are creating a new character?"

rules lawyers suck and having more "hard coded" things or thinking the rules are set in concrete is what gives them power. so only use stuff everyone agrees to use before you start and you wont have the problem with rules lawyers and want have exces crap to deal with unles you choose you wanted to deal with it.

also before it gets brought up 2nd edition PHB and DMG has a section titled.

Weapon Speed and Initiative (Optional Rule)

so you didnt have to use that either.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Err... TSR was bought out in '97. They weren't around in '99. That was Wizards by that point.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:14 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Err... TSR was bought out in '97. They weren't around in '99. That was Wizards by that point.

when i copy paste from the CoreRules software, i leave the copyright info intact. actually ANYTHING you copy from the windows help file copy of the rules provided ADDS that copyright line to it rather than being copied...i jsut dont remove the added copyright line when i paste it.

the book is still

Item Code: #2160
Title: Dungeon Master Guide
Type: Core Rulebook
Published: 1st print - 1995

http://www.tsrinfo.net/archive/dd1/dmg3.htm

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:12 am

from the official WotC Twitter account:
"So for those looking for more info abou the #dnd books missing from the schedule, first news will come in the next Ampersand. Likely more conversation to follow."

http://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/24977883537608704

http://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/24977910049808384

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:08 am

mean_liar wrote:So when do you get bored of playing "mother may I" with the GM about setting DCs?

When I get bored of playing RPGs in general. The DM always sets DCs, the only question is whether he does it directly or indirectly. By putting a red dragon in a room instead of an orc, I've set some DCs. Is it a dragon because the monster had to be a CR 14 challenge, or is it a CR 14 challenge because it's a dragon? Is it a DC 35 lockpicking challenge because it's a magic super lock, or is it a magic superlock because it's a DC 35 lockpicking challenge? In either case, you've got two DM chosen variables.

Making a big deal over whether the chicken came first or the egg is a waste of time.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:52 am

Swordslinger wrote: Making a big deal over whether the chicken came first or the egg is a waste of time.

No, it really makes a difference in this case*, and is largely about "Can I even pretend to believe what is going on here for a fucking moment?" and "Do our choices ever make a difference?"

*Never mind that science answered that one, long before philosophy got around to answering it with the wrong answer.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:17 am

For player agency to make any difference, they have to be allowed to roll an attack roll and a damage roll. Allowing the players to roll damage, but having the MC determine whether they hit or not by fiat, is still bullshit.

-Username17

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:35 pm

sake wrote:The much boasted about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium book and the lowerkey but apparently actually anticipated. Class Compendium book have both been quietly removed from WotC's schedule and amazon.

That info and the associated tweet are pretty tasty from a people-weren't-just-imagining-things-and/or-hating perspective.

The magic item tier system has quickly become the Essential's line version of Skill Challenges. In that it's a much talked about feature that completely failed at the most basic level.

Finally read Rules Comp and understand what this is about; don't have a full opinion about the fail yet (other than I don't get whether they're expecting you to have DDI to see an item-by-rarity list, or whether they really expect people to dumpster-dive through the sources manually to find particular rares they want).

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:16 am

FrankTrollman wrote:For player agency to make any difference, they have to be allowed to roll an attack roll and a damage roll. Allowing the players to roll damage, but having the MC determine whether they hit or not by fiat, is still bullshit.

-Username17

I think the point was that MC setting AC is de facto MC setting player hit rate. It's not directly fiat, but the watchmaker is not disinterested.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:48 am

sake wrote: The magic item tier system has quickly become the Essential's line version of Skill Challenges. In that it's a much talked about feature that completely failed at the most basic level.

That warms the cockles to hear that. Please, sake, can you PM me a couple of threads about people bitching about this system?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:58 pm

Swordslinger wrote:
mean_liar wrote:So when do you get bored of playing "mother may I" with the GM about setting DCs?
When I get bored of playing RPGs in general. The DM always sets DCs, the only question is whether he does it directly or indirectly. By putting a red dragon in a room instead of an orc, I've set some DCs. Is it a dragon because the monster had to be a CR 14 challenge, or is it a CR 14 challenge because it's a dragon? Is it a DC 35 lockpicking challenge because it's a magic super lock, or is it a magic superlock because it's a DC 35 lockpicking challenge? In either case, you've got two DM chosen variables.

Making a big deal over whether the chicken came first or the egg is a waste of time.

These two are almost the same. The difference comes from what happens if they revisit an area. If the low level guys encounter a "good" lock, and later return to discover that it's a "masterwork" lock, there had better be a good reason the lock was upgraded.

If the owner decided to beef up his protection since the last raid, that would make sense. If that lock is in an abandoned dungeon and it just somehow gets harder to pick, then it's dumb. 4E arbitrary skill DCs make the assumption that PCs will only ever visit each instance location once, and once it's finished, it simply vanishes.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Ferret wrote:from the official WotC Twitter account:
"So for those looking for more info abou the #dnd books missing from the schedule, first news will come in the next Ampersand. Likely more conversation to follow."

http://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/24977883537608704

http://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/24977910049808384

So there's no discussion on the follow-up to this (e.g. D&D Miniatures getting the axe, books returning to hardcover format instead of softcover)?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:34 pm

The new ampersand, forum posts and such explaining canceled books, and DDM, Dragon/Dungeon compiled issues and other changes is still slowly trickling out.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:42 pm

RobbyPants wrote:These two are almost the same. The difference comes from what happens if they revisit an area. If the low level guys encounter a "good" lock, and later return to discover that it's a "masterwork" lock, there had better be a good reason the lock was upgraded.

Your reasoning flaw is that you assume that every challenge automatically is the PC's level. This does not have to be the case. 4E modules do give fixed DCs for their skill challenges. If you happen to be doing a 5th level module with 7th level characters, then the skill challenges as well as the monsters are easier. That hasn't changed from 1st edition.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:46 am

Oh, absolutely WotC ignored their own rules for the most part, but often those modules had DCs that were simply ridiculous.

For example, Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress (for levels 17-20), has quite a number of checks in the DC 12-15 range, along with 'hidden' treasures requiring a DC 22 check.

Do you realized how trivial those checks are for characters of that level?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:57 pm

Swordslinger wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:These two are almost the same. The difference comes from what happens if they revisit an area. If the low level guys encounter a "good" lock, and later return to discover that it's a "masterwork" lock, there had better be a good reason the lock was upgraded.
Your reasoning flaw is that you assume that every challenge automatically is the PC's level. This does not have to be the case. 4E modules do give fixed DCs for their skill challenges. If you happen to be doing a 5th level module with 7th level characters, then the skill challenges as well as the monsters are easier. That hasn't changed from 1st edition.

Huh. I thought 4E DCs scaled by character level.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:25 pm

Conjecture: Promoting Heroes of Shadow to hardback status is the last hurrah (possibly burning up a final bit of pre-purchased hardback print runs...?). The loss of the Dragon and Dungeon compiled monthlies does not really jive with their new "Everything in Dragon & Dungeon now goes through the full R&D vetting process!"

They stated that they removed the monthly compilations because it was taking up resources due to reformatting for the compiled version...which is kind of dumb, it's not like minimizing the PDF pagecount and ensuring article to article per-page layouts is super critical given that they're download only.

I think they're going to divert 99% of their new content into Dragon; the initial level of content will remain high, since they're going to throw all the writing that was going to go into Mordenkainen's Emporium and Heroes of Sword and Spell into Dragon. Then they'll rapidly reduce the amount of content to a trickle. This will be the status quo for maybe two years, then 5th edition rumors will start heating up.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:50 pm

RobbyPants wrote:Huh. I thought 4E DCs scaled by character level.

They do and they don't. When the rules tell the MC how to set the DC for a task, the procedure is to look at the character level, choose a difficulty, and check on the chart from there. There is no difficulty for "a masterwork lock" or "a patch of ice" or anything. There's just difficulty and level and it outputs a DC.

But actual adventures that are printed up have pre-done DCs. So the masterwork locks in a particular adventure have some arbitrary and specific DC. But they won't be the same as the DCs for an apparently similar lock written up in another adventure. Because locks do not have any sort of objective criteria upon which to be judged.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:07 pm

Swordslinger wrote: Your reasoning flaw is that you assume that every challenge automatically is the PC's level. This does not have to be the case. 4E modules do give fixed DCs for their skill challenges. If you happen to be doing a 5th level module with 7th level characters, then the skill challenges as well as the monsters are easier. That hasn't changed from 1st edition.

You're getting the cart before the horse here. 4E determines the DC and THEN flavors the challenge, as opposed to picking a potential challenge and then assigning a DC.

For modules this isn't a big deal, since it works out the same. When the adventure is fluid, however, this leads to foolishness like a moat being harder to cross as a 13th level character than a 1st level character. DMs can (and should) try to describe it by saying that it's magical water with crocodiles in it, but there's nothing to enforce that. It's extremely obvious with game effects like Diplomacy.