The Shadowrun Situation

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:37 pm

Except they're not turning it into ED with guns.. because ED with guns might even be interesting.

THey're turning it into D&D with guns, which is.. much less interesting.

Your ED hate comes from a pretty serious misunderstanding of the ED setting. And that's okay.

The Immortal Elves I was okay with that until I figured out they managed to stay alive and active during the down cycle (wtf). The Great Dragons are interesting, and a part of the setting... but DUnk and Lofwyr are good examples of how to do a Dragon, and GhostWalker seems to be a bad example.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:04 pm

I don't even mind the IE being active during the downcycle. They didn't do much of consequence anyway (Leonardo drew a shitload of stuff up nobody wanted to actually do, Alachia played queen, got bored and turned to drugs, as did most others we know of). It's that they're then made out to be UTMOST IMPORTANT despite the concept that they're bored, bored people with nothing to do and eternal life in essence. Everything they attempted, failed in the 4th world, save for cleaning up Venice. So let's keep it that way, maybe make them silent string-pullers at ElfCorp and that's that.

Similarily, Dragons are totally killable with an average intelligent anti-large-things missile. And I bet every military worth their money has contingency plans and dragonslayer missiles by now, so they might not want to go Godzilla on anything. I'd love to see a well-known GD DIE that way, just to drive that point home.

And certainly, Dragons have no "slay continent" spell, like Sirrug seems to have. WTF. What were they thinking? Well, probably something like this.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:13 pm

sabs wrote:Except they're not turning it into ED with guns.. because ED with guns might even be interesting.

THey're turning it into D&D with guns, which is.. much less interesting.

Your ED hate comes from a pretty serious misunderstanding of the ED setting. And that's okay.

The Immortal Elves I was okay with that until I figured out they managed to stay alive and active during the down cycle (wtf). The Great Dragons are interesting, and a part of the setting... but DUnk and Lofwyr are good examples of how to do a Dragon, and GhostWalker seems to be a bad example.

I played ED for years back in the 90s. There's no misunderstanding there. My hate comes from the stupidity of taking a (pretty generic) fantasy game and trying to fit its background and "laws" into a SF/Cyberpunk/Fantasy game.

A game balanced so that melee combat is viable has no business trying to shape a game balanced for modern and futuristic firearms being the norm. The fanboys writing up overgrown lizards and pointy-eared fascists as gods even when faced with modern arms should stop and try to use their brains.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:47 pm

You do understand it's the other way around right?
And earthdawn is not really a generic fantasy game. There's actually a lot of meat on that bone. And they created that world fromt he "Background and Laws" they had for Shadowrun.

Earthdawn comes out of the background notes for Shadowrun.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:49 pm

Well, not a Great dragon, but eithe rHaesslich or Tessien ate a full minigun blast in the novels and did not surface again. And another, this time a Great old one, i think Alamais, got an orbital Laser on his head.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:04 pm

sabs wrote:You do understand it's the other way around right?
And earthdawn is not really a generic fantasy game. There's actually a lot of meat on that bone. And they created that world fromt he "Background and Laws" they had for Shadowrun.

Earthdawn comes out of the background notes for Shadowrun.

I'd consider it a generic fantasy game, especially compared to a number of the D&D settings such as Planescape, Spelljammer and Dark Sun. Not to mention that having uber elves and Dragons is pretty much THE generic fantasy clichee since Tolkien.

And the problem is not how ED was formed - the problem stems from the fact that in order for ED to work they had to balance the game for melee combat. That alone is not a problem in itself, but needed to get the generic fantasy of "melee dude is viable next to mage" somewhat going. But they had to nerf the Shadowrun magic down, HARD. If you compare a shadowrun mage and an ED mage, you'd quickly see how weak a ED mage actually is, even if you skip all the Horror background they are weak, and slow. What a Shadowrun mage casts with a snip of their finger takes an ED mage 10 seconds, even casting raw and not weaving threads.

I was playing Shadowrun and ED at the same time, and there was simply no comparison - our shadowrun mages could do stuff the ED mages could not even dream of. Sure, they could not raise the dead, but then, anyone with half a brain would understand that the raise the dead came from the wish to have a way to fix mishaps ingame, it's not a logical part of the game world.

If ED is supposed to have stronger magic than Shadowrun they should have made it so, and called it "Mage Dawn", but they did not.

But trying to take that system, and its assumptions (Dragons=gods in combat, Magic=uber), and then to re-import it back into Shadowrun through awful crossover novels and plots is what I hate.

Shadowrun is not ED. Once you have heavy weapons overgrown lizards become targets, not superweapons. Simply using find and replace "Sword" with "Gun" but keeping the same tropes is stupid and an insult - see Ghostwalker.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:06 pm

Stahlseele wrote:Well, not a Great dragon, but eithe rHaesslich or Tessien ate a full minigun blast in the novels and did not surface again. And another, this time a Great old one, i think Alamais, got an orbital Laser on his head.

The Luftwaffe shot down a great dragon I think. Back in 2012 or so. But that was before the idiots introduced Ghostwalker.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:23 pm

Yeah, maybe you did play Earthdawn.. but you certainly didn't understand it.. or the background.

First off, there is no Elves are gods in Earthdawn. And in Earthdawns, we have /several/ Great Dragons getting killed.

As for spellcasters. Earthdawn Mages by 3rd circle or so have some very powerful spells. Crushing Mind, Ephemeral Bolt, Ethereal Spear are all very similar to stun/mana/power bolts. And Magic is waning in that world, not rising like it is in Shadowrun.

See, I really feel like you got the wrong assumptions from Earthdawn.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:30 pm

sabs wrote: As for spellcasters. Earthdawn Mages by 3rd circle or so have some very powerful spells. Crushing Mind, Ephemeral Bolt, Ethereal Spear are all very similar to stun/mana/power bolts. And Magic is waning in that world, not rising like it is in Shadowrun.

But they do less damage, have a much shorter range, and take longer to cast. Actual starting mage abilities in Shadowrun have a tendency to be 7th circle. Astral Perception, Engulf, Heal, Concealment. Those are all 7th circle.

-Username17

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Those are all spirit powers though, (except for Astral Perception)

Shadowrun Streetsams are also faster, stronger, and more deadly than in most games. Noone starts as a starting player in Shadowrun. You start as an experienced Badass.. usually.

have you looked at the 1-4 circle spell lists in Earthdawn? There's some plenty powerful spells. And they don't have to suck drain

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Sabs, ED doesn't have powerful spells at that level. Damage-wise, most spells are unable to kill an equal circle opponent in one cast. That's completely unlike Shadowrun. Heal you can have as a starting mage, duh. Invisibility too. And you can summon those spirits as a SR mage.

ED's mana level is supposed to be on a higher level than SR's mana level, and yet their spells are as limited as one would expect from a game attempting to balance it with melee combat.

Range: Line of sight. Standard for Shadowrun. Imagine what that kind of range would do to ED's world. And ED has to suck up drain if they cast raw. If they don't they are even more limited - by the time they are half-way through casting they are dead twice over since SR mages cast two to three times fast, or faster (10 second ED round compared to 3 second SRrounds, with multiple actions per round possible, and possible casting of multiple spells per action) - and they cannot even avoid drain, like any mage in SR can withstand drain.

Admit it: ED's magic is balanced for a power level far, far below Shadowrun. The idea that ED magic should be a game breaker in Shdowrun, that relics from ED should be able to dominate battelfields is insulting.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:55 pm

Except that Earthdawn's magic is dealing with a negative background count of 5 on average. And possibly going up to 8 or 10 depending on how you view things.

I think that if an Earthdawn Mage managed to be in SR's environment, he would be VERY powerful. The Artifact thing.. is more complicated. After all, in Earthdawn Artifacts require threads to be woven to them to unlock their potential.

Actually ED rounds are 6 seconds, not 10.

Yes, ED Magic is slower, but some of the high end stuff ED could do, SR can't do yet.

It used to be btw, that SR mages couldn't kill an equal opponent in 1 cast, without risking dying themselves. I miss the much lower magic power of SR1. Part of my problem I suspect, is that I didn't play SR3, I played Earthdawn during that time period, and then came back to SR4.. and was galled at how much more powerful magic had gotten than SR1 (which is what I really played the most). I still have weird reactions to Shamans being able to cast spells, and Hermetic Mages being able to truck with Spirits so easily.

Yes, they toned down the destructive power of Mages in Earthdawn.. and they balanced spellcasters and nonspellcasters better than most Fantasy games. But take a 2073 Mage and stick him in a 5 background count area.. how well is HE going to do?

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:24 pm

What are you talking about? Shamans could cast spells easily in SR1.

And what do you say about mages not being able to kill in one spell? Mana Bolt had a damage staging of 1 - four more successes than your target, and it was curtains for them with D damage. I played SR1, and we had to nerf the mages down some since we did so much damage, especially with AE spells widened. And no dieing, not with the options avaiable (centering especially, for hard casts)

The trouble with the background count application is that in ED there was no corresponding boost in untainted or cleansed areas to an adept's power. But even so, the mage would still have far faster casting time, and far greater range, and could use cleansing.

And once you pour some karma in that mage, as if it was a mid- to high-circle adept, and initiate, then there's no contest again.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:50 pm

Except that in ED there really aren't any untainted areas... not in the sense of in Shadowrun. The background count of 4-6 IS in the untainted areas. That's why they have to use Matrixes.

Centering didn't help you with the level of Drain.

Yes, it's true that SR is faster (especially given access to IPs) which ED doesn't have. But those are because the mechanics are different.

Behemoths, Air ships, Crystal Cannons, the /adept/ powers are much stronger than the equivalent adept power. (except maybe increased initiative).

But even in Earthdawn, Great Dragons aren't unkillable. I mean, they are by the average group of adventurers, but not by a dedicated Armada. The Blood Elves are powerful yes, but not like.. I am a god. More so because they have an entire forest full of followers.

The power of Artifacts from the ED should be that they exist at all. That there are magical items. Something that cannot be created yet.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:53 pm

The whole Dragon Ball Z thing makes me want to weep. It's doing ED cross over stuff completely wrong.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:37 pm

Lokathor wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:
Fucks wrote:What the fuck are you talking about? Earthdawn is not ouf print since RB released a new edition.
They're reprinting EarthDawn?

I stand corrected then. I had absolutely no clue.
http://www.redbrick-limited.com/cms/ind ... egoryid=18

It's pretty good. Far better edited and organized than 1e was. They're also (finally) getting around to making all new material that isn't just reprints of old edition works.

I'll have to actually check it out. Though I'm burnt out on Fantasy settings.

But yeah, the last few posts have really nailed it. Magic, dragons, and immortal elves have their place, but they're starting to bleed out. I find it unusual that it only takes 20 years for magic to go from "still emergent" to "taking center stage", considering that we're talking about cycles of tens of thousands of years for magic. So SR is either going to have deity levels of magic a thousand years from now, or the dawn/dusk of magic occurs within one human's lifespan.

Or it's just shit fanboy writing. My money's on this.

I always used Lofwyr as kind of the poster boy of Shadowrun in a nutshell:

"Yeah, so Shadowrun is cyberpunk meets fantasy. What do I mean? Well there's this dragon, see, with all the intellect, power, and longevity of a dragon from fantasy. And he owns one of the largest corporations in the world. It's practically it's own country. And not only does he own it, he's the *sole* owner and controller of the corporation. And that's where most of his power comes from. And he carries grudges for a *long* time."

To which people say "holy shit that's fucking awesome when can we play?" The idea that as powerful as a dragon *could* be, it's the cyberpunk element that makes him unbelievably deadly and dangerous is what intrigues people.

If I started talking about immortal elves and EarthDawn magic returning and people-eating-trees I wouldn't get nearly the same reaction.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Fuchs wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:Well, not a Great dragon, but eithe rHaesslich or Tessien ate a full minigun blast in the novels and did not surface again. And another, this time a Great old one, i think Alamais, got an orbital Laser on his head.
The Luftwaffe shot down a great dragon I think. Back in 2012 or so. But that was before the idiots introduced Ghostwalker.

Ah, right, Feuerschwinge, Nachtmeisters honey-scale . .
How could i have forgotten about that? <.<;,
I know Novels(especially the germany only) are not canon, but in one of them, Feuerschwinge had survived in the SOX after being shot down by MISSLES and had become a toxic great dragon. Crippled, without one wing, pretty much half burned body. Radiation Magic took care of that. They had to firebomb a complete village to take care of that. And they left it pretty open, wether or not she had died.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:51 pm

Immortal elves, and People eating trees is crap though

Earthdawn magic returning, could have been handled well.

Sadly Fasa had plans for cross over stuff that never materialized before they went out of business, so it's not clear /how/ they wanted to do it.

So all we're left with is people who were not involved in the original creation of the settings, and have no continuity just making shit up without even really looking at the history of what came before.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:47 pm

sabs wrote:Except they're not turning it into ED with guns.. because ED with guns might even be interesting.

Fire Cannons. :P

As for ED itself, Magic isn't in decline there. The Mana level is for some reason stable, and not falling. Metaplot says therans build great Orichalcum pillars to pull that one off.

As for ED magical items, they were a lot more complex than the ones from SR. In Shadowrun you just weave one thread level to attune your focus. In Earthdawn even the weakest threaded items had four levels.

And when i said magic in Earthdawn was more powerful, i meant that. It's more powerful, because the mages in Barsaive know what they're doing. They're not putting together pieces of old lore. They have access to metamagics without initiation (talents, talent knacks, special Discipline abilities, half-magic), they cast spells as they please, without hurting themselves, they can weave threads to improve places, groups, and even other Namegivers. They can infuse items with magic without any problems, and they don't even need to use elemental Essences.
But they do have one big problem - their magic is limited by the environment, which is the polluted Astral space. And it's not just background count. BGC won't get you Horror-Marked.

And where did i write about turning SR into ED with guns? You want to keep your Shadowrun pure? Kick out magic, GD's and IE', and go play Cyberpunk. It's Shadowrun: Man, Magic, Machine. Without one of these two you just have a custom setting based on SR.
And if you have problems with powerful magic in SR, just don't use it in your games and stop whining. How the hell is a THOR shot different from a ritual spell that blows out a whole mountain? How is a SPDS loaded Assault Rifle burst different from a Powerbolt spell? Yeah, one is Magic, the other is Machine, but the point is, there's always a Man on the ither side. Even if he's an elf, or dwarf, or any sentient being from the Sixth World. It's a game. You play it for fun. Not to state 'My Shadowrun is Purer than yours!' If you want that, go argue about DnD editions, or visit the elitist-old-WoD-camp.
And if you love Cyberpunk that much, i have a quote for you: Evolve or Die.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:20 pm

Uh, you didn't say anything about SR into ED with guns. Fuchs did.

I'm not sure why you're yelling at /me/ I actually agree with you.

Fuchs is the one all like.. "ED sucked, I hate that they're turning it into ED with guns."

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:25 pm

Incorrect. I like D&D, but I'd hate playing D&D with guns instead of Shadowrun. There's a difference.

Shadowrun is man, magic and machine, not magic, magic magic. The current devs are putting way too much emphasis on magic.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:25 pm

Fuchs wrote:Shadowrun is man, magic and machine, not magic, magic magic. The current devs are putting way too much emphasis on magic.

Not surprising. "Lol, a wizard did it" is easier than developing fantastic science.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Sadly Fasa had plans for cross over stuff that never materialized before they went out of business, so it's not clear /how/ they wanted to do it.

The bigger blow was the main people behind the crossover writeups - Sargent and Findley - died. Nobody knows how it should have been. Because those who knew are dead.

Shadowrun is man, magic and machine, not magic, magic magic. The current devs are putting way too much emphasis on magic.

He's very much right in this though. Shadowrun magic had hard limits. No ressurrection, no teleporting, no time travel, and limited scope. Dragons are not godzilla (Tom Dowd himself wrote that a year ago on Dumpshock!). And MAGIC AND CYBERSPACE DO NOT MIX.

The current devs are using magic as a cheap tool to explain any crazy crap they want. And on top of that Aaron writes spells that break the game world and then gloats about it. NOT the way to go.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:47 pm

My desire to use Slow and the MRSI software got War! banned from the PbP group I'm in. Oh well.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:39 pm

sabs wrote:Yeah, maybe you did play Earthdawn.. but you certainly didn't understand it.. or the background.

First off, there is no Elves are gods in Earthdawn. And in Earthdawns, we have /several/ Great Dragons getting killed.

As for spellcasters. Earthdawn Mages by 3rd circle or so have some very powerful spells. Crushing Mind, Ephemeral Bolt, Ethereal Spear are all very similar to stun/mana/power bolts. And Magic is waning in that world, not rising like it is in Shadowrun.

See, I really feel like you got the wrong assumptions from Earthdawn.

I don't give a fuck about Earthdawn though. I'm reasonably sure that having Earthdawn books isn't a prerequisite to play Shadowrun, even in 4th ed. If it was, we'd get a big blurb saying "go buy/read earthdawn shit"

From what I understood, Earthdawn was unofficially SR's past, but SR stood on it's own. You don't *need* Earthdawn to get Shadowrun.

But now the developers are all fanboys and want Immortal Elf bukkake in their face. For any shadowrun fan who doesn't care about ED or is just getting into the game, this direction sucks, because it's going in directions that are connected to products that aren't referenced in SR's core books.

It's doing the same shit as Battletech. The line's metaplot is concerning itself with shit that only some of it's oldest fans can get into, which discourages new players from getting into the game. This is a bad thing. It also makes the game seem like D&D with guns to someone who doesn't give a shit about 20+ years of metaplot and parallel game lines and Earthdawn.

To give an example, it'd be like the metaplot of Dark Sun being based on events and concepts in Forgotten Realms. It's just a fucking bad idea. Actually, that's not a good example, because those two examples are rather successful. It's more like... shit... It's more like Deadlands basing itself off of In Nomine, and to figure out what the fuck is going on you had to go buy In Nomine books and read them just to be able to put the metaplot in it's place.