The Shadowrun Situation

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:59 pm

Except the Developers aren't fanboys. They actually know very little about the actual metaplots, or the links across the product lines. And the product lines are across seperate developers now.

Yeah, you don't give a shit about Earthdawn, and I do. And Shadowrun /does/ stand on it's own. Sadly, knowing about Earthdawn doesn't really help with the plots the current developers are putting out, because those plots actually have /nothing/ to do with the plots from ED.

And Immortal Elves is a product of Shadowrun, not Earthdawn. They don't really talk about Immortal Elves in Earthdawn.

Except of course, I don't give a rats ass about Dark Sun or FR..

You can bring the metaplot in and explain it in SR terms ina way that works. It's just that CGL is fucking incompetent and can't.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:53 pm

Okay, so you hate the fact that the devs put too much emphasis on magic in SR4. I get that. But without using GD's, and IE's this wouldn't be the Sixth World. You don't have to stick them everywhere. It's enough if the team knows they're running for/against Lofwyr. Seeing the bigger picture doesn't help, i think. As there are no dragons, or immortal elves on the streets. And that's where most of the game takes place.
And with the amount of tech stuffed into SR4 I don't think there is much to add. You have cyberware, bioware, nanotech, genetic alterations, drones, biodrones, tons of stuff in the matrix... What else? Powered armor? You really want that kind of 'Machine' focus in SR?

P.S. Sabs, I just quoted you at the beginning of my post, to coreect a minor error. My 'yelling' wasn't directed at you.

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:11 am

Fuchs wrote:
sabs wrote:You do understand it's the other way around right?
And earthdawn is not really a generic fantasy game. There's actually a lot of meat on that bone. And they created that world fromt he "Background and Laws" they had for Shadowrun.

Earthdawn comes out of the background notes for Shadowrun.
I'd consider it a generic fantasy game, especially compared to a number of the D&D settings such as Planescape, Spelljammer and Dark Sun. Not to mention that having uber elves and Dragons is pretty much THE generic fantasy clichee since Tolkien.

And the problem is not how ED was formed - the problem stems from the fact that in order for ED to work they had to balance the game for melee combat. That alone is not a problem in itself, but needed to get the generic fantasy of "melee dude is viable next to mage" somewhat going. But they had to nerf the Shadowrun magic down, HARD. If you compare a shadowrun mage and an ED mage, you'd quickly see how weak a ED mage actually is, even if you skip all the Horror background they are weak, and slow. What a Shadowrun mage casts with a snip of their finger takes an ED mage 10 seconds, even casting raw and not weaving threads.

I was playing Shadowrun and ED at the same time, and there was simply no comparison - our shadowrun mages could do stuff the ED mages could not even dream of. Sure, they could not raise the dead, but then, anyone with half a brain would understand that the raise the dead came from the wish to have a way to fix mishaps ingame, it's not a logical part of the game world.

If ED is supposed to have stronger magic than Shadowrun they should have made it so, and called it "Mage Dawn", but they did not.

But trying to take that system, and its assumptions (Dragons=gods in combat, Magic=uber), and then to re-import it back into Shadowrun through awful crossover novels and plots is what I hate.

Shadowrun is not ED. Once you have heavy weapons overgrown lizards become targets, not superweapons. Simply using find and replace "Sword" with "Gun" but keeping the same tropes is stupid and an insult - see Ghostwalker.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:32 am

Kot wrote:Okay, so you hate the fact that the devs put too much emphasis on magic in SR4. I get that. But without using GD's, and IE's this wouldn't be the Sixth World. You don't have to stick them everywhere. It's enough if the team knows they're running for/against Lofwyr. Seeing the bigger picture doesn't help, i think. As there are no dragons, or immortal elves on the streets. And that's where most of the game takes place.
And with the amount of tech stuffed into SR4 I don't think there is much to add. You have cyberware, bioware, nanotech, genetic alterations, drones, biodrones, tons of stuff in the matrix... What else? Powered armor? You really want that kind of 'Machine' focus in SR?

P.S. Sabs, I just quoted you at the beginning of my post, to coreect a minor error. My 'yelling' wasn't directed at you.

I'm *fine* with magic in SR. I'm fine with it emerging. But I've played in enough settings where magic has become the *only* story that gets told, the only topic that gets examined.

I'm more interested in how magic fits into a world that has developed technology to get around magic. The strange mixing of magic and tech. Immortal Elves and Dragons having to keep up with the Jonses, because state of the art changes by the nanosecond.

I don't personally give a shit about hunting down some ancient magical artifact that some NPC wants. I've played that, for 20+ years, in D&D. I want some researcher at Ares to hire the shadowrunners to go screw over the artifact finding team because the power in that ancient artifact is *just* what he needs to create the next version of the atomic clock or power Disneyworld or something really strange.

I want to see magic emerge, and then even magic users snort and say "shit, yeah we can do this with magic, or we can spend 10 nuyen and use tech".

I dunno, it just feels like I've seen this dog & pony show before, and I'm not feeling where the devs are going.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:32 pm

TheFlatline wrote:I dunno, it just feels like I've seen this dog & pony show before, and I'm not feeling where the devs are going.

Yeah. Not enough corps and tech, too much ancient magic shit. Of course some fanboys eat it up, they can't get enough of IEs and GDs acting as if it was the medieval age and the peasants only had pitchforks to oppose them with.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:05 pm

TheFlatline wrote:I want to see magic emerge, and then even magic users snort and say "shit, yeah we can do this with magic, or we can spend 10 nuyen and use tech".

That's the way you can play SR even now. Okay, so your mage has Astral Projection. You pay 2,5k for a surveillance drone. And you have the advantage of software. You can just let the drone's Pilot and softs do the job when you plan your strikes, or pick the enemies out with a sniper rifle. So, your mage can Levitate. You can call an air taxi, or buy a small flying vehicle... I know this sounds odd, but the balance is there. You can kill someone with a 10NY worth bullet as good as with a spell. Most of the things magic can do to interact with the world is a copy of what the tech can do.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:52 pm

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:53 pm

Yeah, I agree the balance is generally there in SR (That's part of what makes SR so cool to me), but I don't feel like the devs are trying to respect that balance. All their metaplot right now seems to be magic-centric. The whole thing about technomancers emerging seems to have gone by the board, and I was actually kind of interested in that. It feels like magic is being set up to eclipse tech by the devs and their discussions. If you read some of the previous postings about the conversations the devs are having, you can see they're basically saying "Magic is cool, so let's bring out more Harlequin and immortal elf shit."

I dunno. Maybe it's a pendulum swing. 3rd edition ended it's plotline on a pretty tech-centric note. But it's like all that shit involving technology went away: we have fucking AIs that players interact with, people who can impact the matrix as if they were spell slingers, and yet the devs are focusing entire books on super ancient magic MacGuffins, people-eating trees, and ghostly jew-busters.

You've got metaplot begging to be developed and explored and instead they're going with tired D&D tropes, tacky/tasteless adventure hooks, and magic wanking. It honestly feels like the Matrix trilogy. The first act was awesome and opened up all these questions, the second act has stumbled, and the telegraphs of the third act (since 4th edition is probably reaching the end of it's life) show that they're going to go into the toilet by focusing on shit nobody cares about.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:23 am

TheFlatline wrote:Yeah, I agree the balance is generally there in SR (That's part of what makes SR so cool to me), but I don't feel like the devs are trying to respect that balance. All their metaplot right now seems to be magic-centric. The whole thing about technomancers emerging seems to have gone by the board, and I was actually kind of interested in that. It feels like magic is being set up to eclipse tech by the devs and their discussions. If you read some of the previous postings about the conversations the devs are having, you can see they're basically saying "Magic is cool, so let's bring out more Harlequin and immortal elf shit."

I dunno. Maybe it's a pendulum swing. 3rd edition ended it's plotline on a pretty tech-centric note. But it's like all that shit involving technology went away: we have fucking AIs that players interact with, people who can impact the matrix as if they were spell slingers, and yet the devs are focusing entire books on super ancient magic MacGuffins, people-eating trees, and ghostly jew-busters.

You've got metaplot begging to be developed and explored and instead they're going with tired D&D tropes, tacky/tasteless adventure hooks, and magic wanking. It honestly feels like the Matrix trilogy. The first act was awesome and opened up all these questions, the second act has stumbled, and the telegraphs of the third act (since 4th edition is probably reaching the end of it's life) show that they're going to go into the toilet by focusing on shit nobody cares about.

If you consider that the line dev doesn't really understand the Shadowrun metaplot (or mechanics) very well, and considers himself a writer and an editor before being a developer, it makes sense.

The matrix is one aspect of the game that gets the short end of stick by tradition. Not everyone "gets" it, but the people in charge right now aren't even trying. Magic is ease as an excuse. Why learn the rules or the plot when you can say magic is the answer?

Issue:
Bogota is in the mountains, there can't be a carnivorous jungle around it.
Answer:
Magic! Amazonia made all sorts of magic shit, and alchera, so trees!

It doesn't even have to be a good story. As long as the cover says "Shadowrun" someone will defend it.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:28 pm

So, just pick a point of the storyline you are comfortable with and stay there. I did so with Earthdawn, and a few other games.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:02 pm

Did that years ago. I never really finished the Dunkelzahn Election, and since then only picked and chose whatever metaplot part I liked, discarding the rest.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:35 am

Otakusensei wrote:Magic is ease as an excuse. Why learn the rules or the plot when you can say magic is the answer?

Issue:
Bogota is in the mountains, there can't be a carnivorous jungle around it.
Answer:
Magic! Amazonia made all sorts of magic shit, and alchera, so trees!

This is my original point/gripe/complaint with the direction SR is heading. It's lazy and sloppy to say "MAGIC!" whenever you write yourself into the land of stupid.

I need to just break down, print up The Ends of the Matrix, and plug that into SR4 and say "fuck you" to the metaplot and get back to playing Shadowrun.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:51 am

TheFlatline wrote:
Otakusensei wrote:Magic is ease as an excuse. Why learn the rules or the plot when you can say magic is the answer?

Issue:
Bogota is in the mountains, there can't be a carnivorous jungle around it.
Answer:
Magic! Amazonia made all sorts of magic shit, and alchera, so trees!
This is my original point/gripe/complaint with the direction SR is heading. It's lazy and sloppy to say "MAGIC!" whenever you write yourself into the land of stupid.

I need to just break down, print up The Ends of the Matrix, and plug that into SR4 and say "fuck you" to the metaplot and get back to playing Shadowrun.

You're welcome to if you want. But the real issue is that, done well, the metaplot is a fun bit of back story to a street level game. In character you'd sound like a loony talking about the machinations of immortal elves, but otherwise it's fun to to know.

But the current publishers don't know anything about the metaplot. They don't care enough to research it, and they have driven away anyone who's aware of it. They support magic as plot device because they don't know the subtle details of the metaplot. They don't try to do better because they don't give a fuck.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:09 am

This is actually genuinely sad to hear, because Shadowrun was always the lynchpin of cyberpunk. Or at least felt like it. I'm not a huge Shadowrun guy, the only books I own are SR4E and Street Magic and I love Shadowrun's magic system, but it's a crying shame to hear the franchise pushed in that direction.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:31 am

Eh I've always been wary of metaplot. Some of it is good (SR used to have fantastic metaplot), most of it is shit (Vampire The Masquerade: I'm looking at you). It's a good spice, but you don't want the entire meal based off of it.

But you're right, the devs of Shadowrun are terrible showmen. The upper echelons of the SR universe should be mysterious and dangerous. Working directly for them is kind of like showing Jaws in the first 10 minutes of the film. It's just a letdown.

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:41 am

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:49 pm

I sure hope that is not a drone from That Old Drone.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:33 pm

Fucks wrote:***CG pic***

Let me preface this by reminding people of the US cover to Augmentation and stating for the record that I am aware that Shadowrun does not have the best track record for covers. That said:

The fuck?

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:23 pm

They have guys like Raben-aas on paycheck and use that kind of low-end graphics. A shame...

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:29 pm

Otakusensei wrote:
Fucks wrote:***CG pic***

Let me preface this by reminding people of the US cover to Augmentation and stating for the record that I am aware that Shadowrun does not have the best track record for covers. That said:

The fuck?

OK, Milspec Tech is an upcoming .pdf-only release like Missions or Th Digital Grimoire. It's a few pages of military equipment, like a Battletech update pamphlet or something. Actually, it's telling for several reasons.

First of all, War! is 186 pages. If they had a few more pages of equipment, why not put it into War!? Well, the answer is twofold. The first is that it was solicited separately and pdf authors aren't paid as much as people writing for books (assuming that CGL gets around to paying them at all). So actually Jason can't put the Milspec Tech crap into War! without authorizing additional paychecks, which he cannot do. The second part of course, is that they just don't fucking care. Jason actually believes that few extra pages of discussions about specific NPCs who you don't give a fuck about is A-grade material that people want to read and need to own in dead trees format, while guns, planes, and tanks are filler that you dump randomly at the end of the book to make page count come out right or slap into a PDF that will be every bit as canon as a 10 Jackpointers or a Missions adventure.

But secondly, it's telling about what gets put onto the solicitation schedule and where. The book about Drones is Pdf-only. The book about military equipment is Pdf-only. The book about random ideas of how to have some adventures involving the Dragon Ballesque artifacts that Frosty is searching for is a dead trees product that gets advertising. That's seriously the priorities here. A loose collection of ideas about wanking to powerful magic artifacts the players can't have or make gets a book, and lists of technological equipment that players could acquire or even start with are relegated to the non-canonical afterthought pdf pile.

-Username17

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:50 pm

But you're right, the devs of Shadowrun are terrible showmen. The upper echelons of the SR universe should be mysterious and dangerous. Working directly for them is kind of like showing Jaws in the first 10 minutes of the film. It's just a letdown.

This is one of the first things said by anyone in a while that I unequivocally agree with, man. This is the difference between Harlequin (the adventure) and Dawn Of the Artifacts. And it is a huge difference. Do not put the big reveal at the beginning. Seems simple enough, right?

But secondly, it's telling about what gets put onto the solicitation schedule and where. The book about Drones is Pdf-only. The book about military equipment is Pdf-only. The book about random ideas of how to have some adventures involving the Dragon Ballesque artifacts that Frosty is searching for is a dead trees product that gets advertising. That's seriously the priorities here. A loose collection of ideas about wanking to powerful magic artifacts the players can't have or make gets a book, and lists of technological equipment that players could acquire or even start with are relegated to the non-canonical afterthought pdf pile.

This IS mystifying. Especially because you know, the crunch is what people want to buy. Why are they not prioritizing what will sell? Or did I just answer my own question. Things like 10 Jackpointers, 10 Gangs, and This Old Drone were complete stealth releases. I was able to miss them entirely.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:41 pm

This is the difference between Harlequin (the adventure) and Dawn Of the Artifacts. And it is a huge difference. Do not put the big reveal at the beginning. Seems simple enough, right?

There is no big reveal for DotA. None. Somewhere in the distant past there was a vague conclusion in mind for DotA, but it's dead and gone. It's follow up is dead and gone. All we have left are "do whatever the fuck you want and call it magic."

Re: mini-PDFs
CGL has been wanting to do a monthly short pdf release for SR for at least a year now. It was explained to me at one point as a way to continue generating cashflow between actual releases. It makes good business sense: the writers are only paid about 1 cent/word (as opposed to 3-3.5 cents/word), there's no printing involved, and they can be sold forever.

The main problem is trying to squeeze those products into the already bloated and backed-up development schedule. The secondary problem is generating content, because people just don't know shit.

I can't speak for anyone else that worked on it, but I did my part of Digital Grimoire for free. Pro bono. It was the first mini-PDF, and was mostly some leftover material that just didn't make the cut in Street Magic, plus an excuse to cram some stranger shit in there. It was priced cheap and sold well.

10 Gangs I didn't give a crap about. I mean, hell, I submitted a rape gang for it. I had to go back and edit it for content because it was too blue. And 10 Gangs sucked. It was bad. There were things there that made no sense.

10 Jackpointers I argued against from the beginning. I really didn't want that product to go to production. I thought it was retarded. Then I read the drafts and I knew it was retarded. I begged for, and was allowed to, basically rewrite large sections of the drafts (under the guise of unpaid "proofreading") because they were obviously shit. It was entirely fucking obvious that the people writing it had not gotten the memo about what they were doing or why. Really simple obvious things like "if the megacorp knows X about jackpointer Y, then they need a source for that information" or "if megacorp X knows jackpointer Y did shadowrun Z and they know all of Y's aliases, addresses, and real name, why is Y not a bloody smear?" They didn't get that. It made me angry.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:29 pm

JAson HArdy is an aspiring novelist who, sadly, doesn'T really seem to understand that a novel's selling point is NOT the characters first, it'S the STORY. The characters are important, too,l but just dumpf in characters and you get a crappy fanwank. You need a story to move them around. Otherwise, the characters will be nothing anyone cares about.

Re: mini-PDFs

So the much-vaunted MilSpec Gear is a pdf only hack-job, as opposed to an actual book. Interesting.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:35 pm

Kot wrote:They have guys like Raben-aas on paycheck and use that kind of low-end graphics. A shame...

Ahem . . it seems he DID that picture . .

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:42 pm

I dunno, he usually does decent to very good art. Maybe they didn't pay him? Or maybe this is a WIP version?

Critas on Dumpshock wrote:And, in unrelated news, for those of you who are at the "Alright, they get one last pdf purchase from me!" stage of breaking up with CGL, do me a favor. Skip MilSpecTech, and buy The Adept's Way when it comes out, instead. It's my baby, cover to cover, so pretend you don't want more milspec gear and wait to make that your last-chance pdf buy, instead, would'ja?

Since here're people In The Know: Anyone know what that pdf is about?