Fixing the Fantasy of Fantasy Gaming

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:54 pm

A Man In Black wrote:
tzor wrote:Guns and fantasy don’t mix well, but not for the reasons you might think. and some other stuff
This is a great example of the sort of "Fantasy represents muscle-powered weapons well but not firearms because they are special" claptrap that leads to Optional Realistically Deadly Gun Rules that nobody plays with ever.

I don't see why it does. Dexterity based weapons can still hold thier own over strength based weapons. The small swords and the épée (both derived from the rapier and is in more tune with most role playing fantasy measurements) can function even though in many cases the real power of these weapons (the épée used a triangular blade because the wound created is harder to heal over than one created by a thin blade) is eliminated from the general rules.

The biggest problem is that "reality" has to be thrown out the window, every weapon has to agree to be using the same rules, and weapon worship is a no no. The problems with muskets are the same as the problems with the katana, too many fan boys want to make them the divine be all weapon when they were never anything than just another useful weapon.

Several years ago I hacked a quick set of rules for one of the D&D variants because I was working on a 18th century level fantasy novel and wanted something that I could hand wave as necessary. I didn't cover formation fighting, which is where muskets really start to get fun. (As in Fog of War effects.)

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:04 pm

sabs wrote:This is why.. close combat tended to look like.

I fire my preloaded pistol at you, and then anyone still alive I fight with a sword. Or, I'm Captain Jack Sparrow, and I carry 4 pre-loaded pistols on me, at all times.

Damnit, I can't find it now but there's seriously this 17th century satirical illustration of "Musketeers Duelling" or somesuch, where in the first panel they're firing at each other... then they charge, fight with swords, batter each other with sticks from a nearby tree, and then ultimately wrestle on the ground, first with daggers and then hand-to-hand.

Musket reloading times have been a joke for 400 years.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:36 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:As long as people insist on enemies that can be seriously inconvenienced by "a guy who totally has some training and also a sword", then a wagon full of gunpowder will always be "overpowered".

-Username17

What?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:44 am

Of course, a wagon full of gunpowder will also be expensive. Sure, you could have a wheel barrow full of kegs of gunpowder, and when the goblins pop out, wheel it into them with a sizzling fuse, or have the fire proof guy run at them with it laughing maniacally. But... so what? Yeah, you kill a bunch of goblins in one round. Or you actually fight them and kill them in two, maybe three. There's also the fact that... goblins, at least, probably have a decent idea that "maniacal laughter+wheelbarrow full of barrels+fuse" equals "doubleplus not good." To be honest, I would credit the goblins with pioneering that technique, sans fireproof guys (there's always one dumb Bob).

Besides, a wheelbarrow full of gunpowder is helpful for, what? One encounter. Or a string of them if you actually use it to reload. Yes, eventually people will be hauling around vast amounts of the stuff to blow enemies up, but at that point, they're probably hauling around wands of fireball, or whatever, too. I honestly don't see the problem if the pcs can, in a fit of desperation, waste all their ammo to blow up an otherwise unstoppable force. Regular guns are going to do normal damage, and people who bitch about it can suck my cock. A gun is no more, or less damaging than a sword, just perhaps ever so slightly safer to use. All this "Oh, (X) is the purest, most deadly weapon evah!" needs to stop. Weapons were designed to kill things by people who knew how best to do it. Honestly, if you want to differentiate weapons, a system needs to be created where various weapons ignore various types of armour. The fact that a gun must be reloaded and meticulously cared for is, to some extent, a balancing factor over swords which merely need to be kept clean and oiled, and can chop all day. A bow is vastly easier to reload than a gun, and a crossbow is even easier, while a muzzle loaded gun is... well not particularly hard, but uses a lot of accoutrement. Now, honestly, I think it's dumb to assume muskets and flintlocks would be the end all and be all of guns in D&D. Eventually some industrious and lucky goblin or gnome is going to invent the revolver, then the bolt action, then the shotgun, then the gattling gun, then the magazine holding semi-aut. And with D&D, it'll go probably pretty quick.

On the note of bolt-throwers. Yeah, sure. But if you're explaining them through magic, then magically augmented swords are going to be just as available. If a tk bolt-thrower costs 1000g, it's not much different than a flaming sword, now is it? If it cost 500g, then a flaming sword, which uses a much lower level spell, should be no more.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:04 am

I am trying to figure out how I should implement rocket launchers. The idea is that they are slow to reload and really inaccurate. They're anti-armor weapons, so they are good against slow and clumsy ogre-sized targets, but terrible against normal humanoids unless they are packed into a crowd.

Just a penalty to hit won't work. Maybe conditional modifiers based on size and mobility of the target? But that might unnecessarily complex.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:18 am

...Can't tell if troll...

A rocket launcher is probably on the scale of fireball and thus should be treated like a mid level scroll, I would think. But, sure, say -4 to hit, 3d10 fire damage. And take a good minute to reload, and of course you can always just make a giant box that fires twenty rockets and not care about reloading. And it costs like 200g for the launcher, 50g per rocket. That work?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:26 am

Over the course of the last couple years, I have repeatedly mentioned a Tome game where powered armor and guns are readily available to PCs in the big Magitek republic. If this is a troll, I guess I must be pretty dedicated. Maybe this calls for a new avatar.

Giant boxes that fire rockets would probably get put on vehicles. Pretty nice if you're going with a hit-and-run strategy, but if the PC's have them, they are probably either mid-level or part of a warband. Also probably in a situation where MTP could greatly simplify things.
--------------------------

I'm thinking that I'll price weapons in several tiers. So a magic sword or rifle would be 100 GP or Tier 1 Wepon, and a flaming sword or heat ray would be 1000 GP / Tier 2.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:42 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Over the course of the last couple years, I have repeatedly mentioned a Tome game where powered armor and guns are readily available to PCs in the big Magitek republic. If this is a troll, I guess I must be pretty dedicated. Maybe this calls for a new avatar.

Hey, it happens. I haven't caught those messages, I don't think.

Giant boxes that fire rockets would probably get put on vehicles. Pretty nice if you're going with a hit-and-run strategy, but if the PC's have them, they are probably either mid-level or part of a warband. Also probably in a situation where MTP could greatly simplify things.

Just throwing out things that happen in real life, I mean, the flame thrower is proof that someday, some one thought "I want to set those people on fire, but they're over there" and the box missile system is proof that some one once thought "I want to blow lots of shit up, but it takes to long to reload."

I could see a goblin or gnome making one, and possibly attaching it to their mount. Or the tank's armour, for that matter.

I'm thinking that I'll price weapons in several tiers. So a magic sword or rifle would be 100 GP or Tier 1 Wepon, and a flaming sword or heat ray would be 1000 GP / Tier 2.

Could work

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:16 am

Are you guys not familiar with the Gadgeteer?[/url]

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:22 am

Are you cognizant of the fact that we're talking about adding equipment, not a class?

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:04 am

The class makes equipment.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:13 am

The Gadgeteer is definitely a nice idea mine. It's part of what reignited my interest in the magitek game after I dropped the idea for a couple months.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:26 am

BearsAreBrown wrote:The class makes equipment.

That only he can use.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:39 am

Devices can be handed to other people to use, however they are not automatically considered proficient (anyone with "All Martial Weapons" proficiency should be considered proficient with weaponlike Gadgets), and the Gadgeteer must continue to maintain the items (as part of his "pool" of Gadgets) for them to continue functioning.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:48 am

alright, but they're still using his uses. I don't consider "here, you can use my smite evil today" making smite evil equipment.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:19 am

Backpedaling into a terrible analogy? More like, "hey, you can use my +1 Sudden Stunning Sword but it can only be used 4 times a day."

Like Avora said, it's a good idea mine for the type of thing you guys are talking about. It's not an end all system to equipment and no one thinks it is.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:49 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I am trying to figure out how I should implement rocket launchers. The idea is that they are slow to reload and really inaccurate. They're anti-armor weapons, so they are good against slow and clumsy ogre-sized targets, but terrible against normal humanoids unless they are packed into a crowd. .

Maybe something like this:

A rocket is an AoE weapon, that deals XdY TYPE damage to a Z' radius. All characters in the area may make a Ref save DC=?? for half damage. The explosive nature of a rocket means that it deals that XdY damage to each square inside that radius - if a creature or object is large enough to occupy more than one square, then they take damage for each square they occupy.

Pick or invent a damage type that isn't reduced by hardness, Set the damage on the low side of the meaningful range, remember that objects only get saves vs attacks when said objects are carried, worn or magical, and you have an attack that vaporizes sailing ships or stagecoaches, is only potentially lethal against dragons and purple worms, is only a nuisance to most PCs and is useless against the rogue.
.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:27 am

BearsAreBrown wrote:Backpedaling into a terrible analogy? More like, "hey, you can use my +1 Sudden Stunning Sword but it can only be used 4 times a day."

Like Avora said, it's a good idea mine for the type of thing you guys are talking about. It's not an end all system to equipment and no one thinks it is.

Back peddle? Terrible analogy? Hrm. Ok, smite evil is under whelming for the circumstance, but that doesn't make it back peddling or a terrible analogy.

Yes, your suggestion works. If the party has a gadgeteer. I think I'd rather see real equipment.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:56 am

you want equipment resembling GrimDark 40k type stuff, Koumei wrote an aweful good piece about how to do GrimDark d20, better than the .... actually better than most 40k based RPGs on the market. It's vaguely got semblances of balance (characters operate on the same power tier, yadda-yadda-yadda; we know what d20 stuff needs to look like) . Which is sort of sad, but sort of funny.

Anyway, yeah, Spess Merhns fight fiendish tyrannosaurs and shit.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:05 am

PoliteNewb wrote: Loading was somewhat slow (slower than a smoothbore musket, anyway), but wikipedia cites 1 minute, and I think it was faster with patched balls.

A skilled marksman could take around three relatively aimed shots per minute with a civil war era rifle.

You get pretty damn fast if you practice consistantly.

During the war of 1812, HMS Shannon could push out close on to 4 broadsides in 5 minutes, which is especially impressive because the loading process of those guns are far more involved and require shoving 2 or 3 tons of metal around.

Really though, firearms became the norm for warfare for a few reasons:

1. Volley fire is lethal, even against plate armor.
2. It takes only a few weeks to a couple of months to train someone to use a rifle effectively. It could take years to train someone to use a sword or bow effectively.
3. Once you get the metallurgy down, it becomes fairly easy to make bigger guns that hit harder.

My thing about fantasy that involves firearms is that it sort of ignores magic. I could see magical items allowing all kinds of limitations to be bypassed, especially in a D&D-esque setting. In that respect, a cadre of mages could outfit and train a host of soldiers in magically enhanced firearms.

It's something you don't really see. You'd at least expect some mage to create an auto-loading auto-cocking crossbow. Then you'd expect some other mage to figure out a way to speed that up, and you have a basic machine gun.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:25 am

TheFlatline wrote:It's something you don't really see. You'd at least expect some mage to create an auto-loading auto-cocking crossbow. Then you'd expect some other mage to figure out a way to speed that up, and you have a basic machine gun.

Look at Arms and Equipment guide. It has an enchantment and a special magical weapon that add up to your crossbow.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:20 pm

There's even a D&D novel (One of the series with "White Plume Mountain" in it, patterened after the adventure I believe) where the party uses an autoloading repeating magic crossbow like a civil war era gatling gun to mow down hosts of drow, complete with cranking to reload, and eventually overheating it.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:04 pm

Regarding gunpowder, D&D era weapons should use serpentine powders.

You need to mix the powder immediately before use not cart it around thinking it will still work. /Any/ vigorous shaking ruins it as an explosive. Basically, a few rounds of running or melee and it's stuffed. An hour of walking much the same. Having it make by Imps and Quasits would be thematically appropriate, or as a Sor/Wiz spell, as people thought it the Devil's tool. 10 rounds to load a muzzle gun, 7 for a breech. 30% shot failure, +10% each time you quick load and save two rounds cleaning. 50% failure if non-proficient. Failed shots may fire when being drawn (you can quick load over them, but that may cause the gun to explode in your face). Bullet-wise, 1d8/x3 damage would be right for a typical .60 hackbutt, War1 death was pretty rare without infection. Armour worked better against them than it did a good arbelast, so don't sweat it.

Cannons in that age were crazy dangerous, but only to the people firing them. They also couldn't be moved, so wall-breakers only really.

Petards and grenades, OK, but not silly amounts of damage. 6d6 petard (+2d6 in contact) and 2d6 grenade looks good against heavy wood and War1's respectively, fairly small AoE for both, 30' and 10' radius spread.

You can't stockpile serpantine powder, it eventually separates by gravity, so nothing bigger is really practical. Cost? As much as you want: the ingredients are all fairly cheap, it's just that the guys practised at mixing them in the field kept blowing themselves up.

So yeh, some crazy thing the goblins are doing, will never replace the skill of a hero and his longbow. Yada yada.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:09 pm

TheFlatline wrote: A skilled marksman could take around three relatively aimed shots per minute with a civil war era rifle.

Yup. Minie balls and percussion caps changed the whole face of warfare. Not as much as center fire brass cased ammo, but they were huge.

Black powder isn't that bad, in and of itself. It's when you get the tech that enables it to be more lethal that it gets ugly. Arquebus leading to muskets leading to Minie balls and percussion caps leading to black powder center fire rounds leading to smokeless powder leading to high explosives. Somewhere in there you stop playing D&D and start playing Morrow Project.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:58 pm

kzt wrote:Black powder isn't that bad, in and of itself. It's when you get the tech that enables it to be more lethal that it gets ugly. Arquebus leading to muskets leading to Minie balls and percussion caps leading to black powder center fire rounds leading to smokeless powder leading to high explosives. Somewhere in there you stop playing D&D and start playing Morrow Project.

But the slippery slope of tehnological progress is no different from the slippery slope of magical progress. Once you get into magical rocket tag and the wish economy many people would also insist that you are no longer playing D&D.

One of the biggest advantages of early gunpowder weapons is that is is not limited to a single porjectile. The blunderbus and various canon equivalents provided area attack systems up until the invention of the machine gun.