Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Maxus]

What irks me is portraying Powergaming and roleplaying are opposite of each other.

Honestly, they'd be something like Good/Evil and Law/Chaos. You can have an extremely well-played reality-rewriting wizard. You can have a very badly-done fighter who's trying to portray them as a flawed character.

I personally prefer playing a mechanically strong character because I tend to get invested in my characters after a while. I don't play them at full-speed unless it seems dramatically appropriate to do so, or the party is in a tight spot. But after spending a few hours sorting out a character's mechanical and fluff details, I don't want to do the work again for someone new. I try to make sure I have a few big guns that come out when needed. Whether it's provoking a billion AoO's to deal massive damage with Blitz (in a tome game) or breaking out a few of the more kickass Cleric spells in an SRD game.

[tussock]

Classic that Paizo thread.

Stated problem: all players are weak and defensive, but one newer "problem" player is high damage.
Fact: "Problem" player started out using a tower shield and one-handed weapon to fit in with that, as a Barbarian no less, wasting the feats and everything. But the DM hit him with endless touch attacks until he gave that shit up. Now he's using a Vicious Greatsword while being buffed by the other PCs, and the DM's sick of modifying all the monsters to make that not work.

Because fights are supposed to all last 7 rounds, or something. It does look like the DM just doesn't like the guy and is looking for more ways to screw over his character (and, by the thread title, any other character he might try). Maybe the more regular players have learnt that you're not supposed to kill this DM's pet monsters too quick, and push the heat onto the new guy by buffing him.

[fectin]

What irks me is portraying Powergaming and roleplaying are opposite of each other.

They're completely orthogonal. Though, it's a little weird because every character is pursuing power, and the player is apparently supposed to sabotage that?

[CatharzGodfoot]

What irks me is portraying Powergaming and roleplaying are opposite of each other.

They're completely orthogonal. Though, it's a little weird because every character is pursuing power, and the player is apparently supposed to sabotage that?

Nah, adventurers are supposed to be wandering obliviously about, terrified of every shadow, trying to deliver a mcguffan. Any gain is personal power is incidental.

[Maxus]

Or blindly hallucinatory about their actual capabilities.

My favorite incident I heard of disabusing this with a notion is where a level 6 Paladin did a Smite Evil on a Kyton in an SRD game and the Kyton went..."That's it? That's the power of a paladin? I've had more pain from getting stung by a hellwasp. You're out here trying to slay fiends and THAT is the worst thing you can do to us? DANCING CHAINS!"

Apparently the Paladin player had been obnoxious is how awesome Paladins are and the character himself had been "I shall overcome all evils, because I serve the forces of good!"

Don't get me wrong, Paladins -are- awesome. I like the flavor of a holy warrior. But by all accounts, the player was rather dismayed when he did 1d10 + 8 damage (rolled sorta poor on the bastard sword swing) for his last smite of the day and the devil in question said "That stung a little. Can you do it again?" and ascertaining that the Paladin cannot, the Kyton then would have chain-raped him had the rest of the party not been there.

[mean_liar]

I read that thread. The OP got called out for his bullshit. He's an idiot, but most of the posters thought so too.

[tzor]

What irks me is portraying Powergaming and roleplaying are opposite of each other.

It's not like they are the "opposite," but rather that they do not meet at the extreemes. A lot of power gaming routes involve a lot of sudden changes at strange intervals in order to accomplish the power gaming goal.

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

[Manxome]

It's not like they are the "opposite," but rather that they do not meet at the extreemes. A lot of power gaming routes involve a lot of sudden changes at strange intervals in order to accomplish the power gaming goal.

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

That's not a failure of roleplaying, it's a failure of game mechanics (if it is a failure at all).

No one in real life thinks it's weird if you leave your home for years at a time and spend huge amounts of money and effort just to study skills that are required for your desired vocation. If quantum economics is an actual vocation that people know about, and your character wants to become one, it is perfectly rational and in-character for him to study the prerequisite skills.

Once the designer has decided accounting is the fast track to quantum economics, it is an actual rule of the setting that reasonable characters in that setting will observe and utilize. It would be bad roleplaying not to become an accountant.

[A Man In Black]

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

That's nonsensical. They're both skillsets that involve abstract, computer-assisted math and translating the results of that math for laypeople. They are complementary in many ways.

Plus, weird shifts, even with a synthesis of the two skillsets as the final career, happen in the real world all the time: take Steven Levitt, for example (please!). I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who was interested in a career that involved the synthesis of two separate skillsets would first master one, then the other, then concentrate on combining them. Because you probably already know at least three people who've done just that.

[mean_liar]

I'm with tzor. At the far extreme, its pretty ludicrous.

For example:

Monk 2 (oriental variant)
Fighter 2 (exoticist variant)
Barbarian 1 (urban brawler variant; lion totem barbarian)
Warblade 1
Cleric 1 (cloistered, Wrath domain at the least) - OR - Archivist 1
Swordsage 1 (caster variant)

...is a pretty goddamn eclectic chassis to work your way through with roleplay. You can, there is an answer, but it definitely is the "I travel the world learning exotic fighting styles and then moving on" variety, which may not exactly dovetail with what's going on in your game at the time.

It IS a failure of the game, too, since the Druid 8 with no options or prestige classes waltzes forward to power and glory.

[Slade]

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

Maybe you say you lost your job or you need money and you don't think you can make the money as a professor yet. So you do more studying (levels in Physics) than qualify for quantum economics allowing you to combine this.

Really simple. Look at real life. Not everyone who wants to be a physics professor ends up that way.

[K]

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

Maybe you say you lost your job or you need money and you don't think you can make the money as a professor yet. So you do more studying (levels in Physics) than qualify for quantum economics allowing you to combine this.

Really simple. Look at real life. Not everyone who wants to be a physics professor ends up that way.

Yeh, it's a failure of roleplaying when you can't come up with a good reason for your character to have the stats you want.

[Judging__Eagle]

Trouble is.... the best optimizers, are also the ones that can spin a mad yarn that explains why their Orphaned [Class 1], was taken in by a [Class 2]; given over to a kindly [Counter Type Class] for tutoring, and studied not [Counter Type], but rather [Archetype 3] styles of the [Class 3 Type Species]. Eventually, they decided on a real job, and decided that being a master of [Class 4] was the best course of action after a [Enemy] horde conquered their adoptive parent's [Stereotypical Home]. Now, they have set out to mete out non-[Counter Type] vengeance upon those that stand against them, or their goals of survival, training, power-growth and vengeance.

I did that up to explain the "why" of one of my mult-dip builds is built the way they are. Granted, I wrote the build first, then told the story after, but honestly there's no such thing as having "one" process in storytelling. What matters is that you can tell a story that makes people not lose their suspension of disbelief.

Seriously, the story for Roland, Bear of the North is more interesting than the crap-stick story I've heard for any "big roleplayer" ever tell. I find it's both sad, and telling. In general, Powergamers will work harder, since Powergaming is hard; giving them an opportunity to throw their inferior "roleplayer" bretheren a storytelling bone will usually make people happier.

Alas, this aforementioned group is mentally deficient. On so many levels.

I've had my own fair share of inept MCs who thought that making the game harder on me would..... somehow make the game "harder" for me. Usually.... I only just work harder, and end up with a more optimized character than I did before the MC decided to try and make the game more "challenging" for me and the other players. Mostly, because D&D is so damned full of "good combos" that no one can possibly take them all into account; least of all inept MCs.

I'm not sure how that group will work out. If the player was any good at gaming "tables" (not the game); they'd constantly talk "in character", and make the other characters feel bad "in game"; telling them that he might give them some scant advice, since they're obviously not very more than barely capable hobo-warriors.

[A Man In Black]

I'm with tzor. At the far extreme, its pretty ludicrous.

For example:

Monk 2 (oriental variant)
Fighter 2 (exoticist variant)
Barbarian 1 (urban brawler variant; lion totem barbarian)
Warblade 1
Cleric 1 (cloistered, Wrath domain at the least) - OR - Archivist 1
Swordsage 1 (caster variant)

...is a pretty goddamn eclectic chassis to work your way through with roleplay.

It's also the protagonist of Highlander. And Bruce Lee. These are not unreasonable archetypes to want to play.

[Fuchs]

That is if you actually take the fluff of those classes, and not just the mechanical benefits. You don't need to consider your character a monk, or having been trained by a monk, just because you've got a few monk levels. That can easily be sorted under "learn to hit stuff better".

[K]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've always seen warrior crap to be the easiest to justify. Each adventure is an excuse to learn or experiment with new fighting techniques.

"And then we were thrown into the gladiator pit, and that's why I have a level of Fighter even though I was raised a Barbarian."

[RobbyPants]

If your goal is to obtain X levels of class Y and then more levels of a completely different class, a role player will want to know why. Yes I know you have just spent 10 years as a physics professor but you need to suddenly become an accuntant. (HUH? Why it's the only path to the quantum economics PRC!)

The thing it, a typical power-gamer will likely have a build planned out levels in advance. So, it's not so weird if he tells the DM in advance. So, if he wants to be some sort of gish with fighter and wizard levels, and he starts out at level 1 as a fighter and then takes his second level as wizard, you don't assume that he magically just becomes a wizard. You figure that he already has his wizard training, but for some reason (the limits of a system that breaks classes into discrete levels), he just isn't good enough to cast his spells.

No one complains about a fighter 1/wizard 1 being able to cast spells and use a sword. It's just that unless you start out at level 2 or play some other class or a variant class (battle sorcerer or something), then you can't pull it off. The system basically reveals its inherent weakness during the leveling process. It's not a matter of roleplaying vs. rollplaying.

[RobbyPants]

I'm with tzor. At the far extreme, its pretty ludicrous.

For example:

Monk 2 (oriental variant)
Fighter 2 (exoticist variant)
Barbarian 1 (urban brawler variant; lion totem barbarian)
Warblade 1
Cleric 1 (cloistered, Wrath domain at the least) - OR - Archivist 1
Swordsage 1 (caster variant)

...is a pretty goddamn eclectic chassis to work your way through with roleplay. You can, there is an answer, but it definitely is the "I travel the world learning exotic fighting styles and then moving on" variety, which may not exactly dovetail with what's going on in your game at the time.

It IS a failure of the game, too, since the Druid 8 with no options or prestige classes waltzes forward to power and glory.

This reminds me of Frank's old rant (possibly back in the days of 3.0) about a "swashbuckler" who has levels in something like paladin, ranger, fighter, and rogue (or monk?). He goes to explain what class features you get, and how they pertain to being a swashbuckler.

Sure, the idea of Divine Grace adding +Cha to saves doesn't seem very swashbuckler-like, but if you retool that as protection via sexiness, then it makes sense. So the point is, all of those abilities on the character sheet really point to being a good swashbuckler. If at any time when you gain a level, if you aren't advancing yourself to being a better swashbuckler, then you're failing at roleplaying your character (in the level-up sense of the word).

Remember: these classes you write on your sheet are handy reminders and easily categorized sets of abilities. Other than that, a character isn't aware of his class(es). A character can do things, and those things happen to be granted by classes, but the actual classes written on your sheet mean fuck-all, except for multi-classing penalties, which I personally hate.

[TOZ]

This reminds me of Frank's old rant (possibly back in the days of 3.0) about a "swashbuckler" who has levels in something like paladin, ranger, fighter, and rogue (or monk?). He goes to explain what class features you get, and how they pertain to being a swashbuckler.

I remember that. Anyone know where it is?

[RobbyPants]

Here it is

I found it by Googling the phrase: buckling more swashes FrankTrollman

I remember him saying that, and I hoped it was relatively unique.

[TOZ]

Much obliged. I thought it was around here somewhere.

[Cynic]

I'm with tzor. At the far extreme, its pretty ludicrous.

For example:

Monk 2 (oriental variant)
Fighter 2 (exoticist variant)
Barbarian 1 (urban brawler variant; lion totem barbarian)
Warblade 1
Cleric 1 (cloistered, Wrath domain at the least) - OR - Archivist 1
Swordsage 1 (caster variant)

Here, I made a rather quick background for you. Took me 10 minutes. Obviously could do much better. Haven't checked for spelling.

So, here I was sitting at the Rat's piss. One of the more "exotic" titty bars in Sigil. That's when I saw her walk onto the stage. Red mohawk, pert small breasts, and well, extremely proficient at the esoteric needs of this establishment. Jacintha was her name. I was out of coin but I figured there had to be a way to impress her enough to bunk with me for the night. After her stage time, I talked her up a bit with a drink and learned that she was an ex-adventurer. Looking at my scars and swellings, she promised sweet nothings and more if I told her about my adventures. Mentioning something about her current job had more security than being adventurer. I snorted at this inane proposition but, hell, I was willing to talk myself up enough to get her into bed.

The best place to explain what I am is from the very beginning.

In one of the more remote plains of Asgard was where my life really began. I was dumped there in a tiny basket covered with a thick cloak and a pure gold and darkwood bo-staff. Left there to die or be eaten, fate decided that wasn't to be the case. A monk from Balder's temple was passing through looking for an ingredient for his cloister's ale. He found me there and took me in. I spent 20 years there. Fasting, ale-brewing, trying to woo Valkyries. The life of balder's monk wasn't just fun. We were entrusted to go across the plains in search of better beer. I found that in these travels, there were monsters. And monsters meant fights. Fights meant I kicked their asses or got some of them drunk enough to leave me alone.

Somewhre near my twentieth birthday, I fell through an open portal that took me into a strange plane that was hellish to say the least. With only my bo staff at hand and not the sharpest wit to my name, I tried to fend for myself. Two years of staying here hardened my body enough and taught me tricks and ways enough to survive. I was finally found by a passing nomadic tribe that captured me and took me in as a slave. Working with a collar around my neck and wandering the planes, I learnt that my anger was a sole companion. As it fed me, I took whatever ways of escaping into me. This meant engrossing myself into their cat worship and rituals. A couple years in, my temper got the better of me finally. I erupted out of the chains and destroyed half the tribe. In a loincloth and holding a torch, I ran as far as I could and found myself somehow in sigil. I believe the Lion god took care of me. I had decided by then to fuck balder and all of Asgard. What had he done to take care of me?

I wound up in the underground gladiator arenas of sigil, and slowly worked my way through to almost being the champion before one of my foes, that bastard Magnos, a kyton wrapped his chains around my arms and ripped it off.

Bleeding, I was thrown into a gutter outside of the arena. Illegal fighting was tolerated but such damage as done to me would have had to be noticed. Somewhere someone was watching over me. All I know is, that I was back on Asgard at the cloister of my youth. All that was told to me when I woke up, was that I was given a second chance. No matter the coercing, the best I could dredge up as information was that Balder was to be the one I was thankful to. The head monk/abbot called me in one day and I was told that he could restore my arm to its' old state. But I would have to become a priest to Balder. I fought it and I hated this "healing with a price" from the God loved by all. But the reward of a restored body was worth a priesthood. After several years of "service", the abbot finally restored my arm.

At the first instance available, I left the monastery. I missed my Bo staff. I travel the planes now with a vow to be the most proficient fighters around and through practice, and deep thought one the ways of the weapon, I shall be complete. I still search for that bo staff. It is the only sign of my parents.

-
These were the words I told the girl with the mohawk and beautiful...skin. Yes, skin. After several drinks, she finagled her way out of sleeping with me. Mentioning something about a sick child to take care of, she walked away. Thoroughly annoyed and frustrated, I decided to skip out on my tab. I stood up, stumbled, and promptly fell onto the table. As I tried to regain my balance, I found a message on a piece of paper on the table.

--- Sef the weaponeer has some of the more exotic weapons to sell in the land. He resides on Yoerth, the desert world -- Jacintha.
--

[mean_liar]

Coming up with a background for it isn't difficult - my favorite example isn't Highlander or Bruce Lee, it's Samurai Jack. But doing it in the middle of the game as you level up is awkward if you retain fluff.

Oriental monk? Urban brawler Lion totem barbarian? Arcane swordsage? Cloistered Wrath domain cleric?

If you maintain fluff, that shit is a jumble. If you strip fluff and focus on what those classes DO - fight unarmed, fight unarmed and pounce, minor fightin' magics, more minor fightin' magics - it's fucking easy to cobble together.

That's the divide. There are gamers that view classes as distinct cultural elements, and would make you go to the Lion people in-play and study with them in order to be a Lion totem barbarian (and trying to shoehorn in the Urban Brawler bit would be a tough go), because the Lion totem people are over there and you're over here, and maybe there are serious cultural issues having to do with your oriental monk background. Maybe becoming an arcane swordsage requires you study at a specific temple or something.

Like I said, working it through with RPing, as it happens in-game and not with a decent just-so story can be difficult, which is why I consider it a failure of the game.

[Cynic]

Look another part of rp can be DM cooperation. Explain out of game your intentions to take said class and what might be the best way to go about it or to fit it into the game. I mean, shit, you could have the lion totem warrior be that the warrior was put to sleep with deep slumber and when they woke, in the grogginess, they thought they had a vision about a Lion doing circus tricks.

[tzor]

Yes I do agree, that you can always "backfill" a character's history espeically if you are starting a character at level X. My problem, or rather my nit pick is that if I am currently playing a character at level X, I need a real good in character reason why he is going to do Z instead of the Y he was doing previously. I am also not going to rewrite all his story to fit the new class in the progression.