Core Principle: Your Fantasy Economy is Bullshit

[violence in the media]

Towns don't try to fend off dragons. They try to placate them. Basically, a dragon can come and kick over your town at no real cost to itself, but there isn't a huge incentive to do so. So what a town tries to do is attract a dragon and make it want to keep them alive rather than kill them for 'lulz'.

So, you know, virgin sacrifices, tribute of fine craftsmanship, cattle, and servants.

When a hero comes and 'liberates' the village, all she's done is ensure that the next time a band of gnoll bandits happens by, the town gets razed. So at that point the hero has the responsibility to replace the dragon--unless she's an evil 'hero', in which case she stabs the dragon in the face, takes its stuff, and tells the town to go fuck itself.

Ok, that's good, but that's the sort of thing that isn't typically mentioned, even though it probably should be. Hell, a single moderately-powered dragon probably has several villages like this, and rotates between them so he doesn't deplete any one of them of cattle or virgins unnecessarily. None of these settlements answer to a Baron or Duke in the traditional sense, they're all a part of the nation of Sharpfang the Rapacious.

D&D land should be constructed with this sort of thing in mind. This is the sort of thing PCs should know and not be surprised by. Dragons aren't rare and mysterious in this paradigm, they're the thing that swoops into town every year and eats someone's sibling. As a corollary to this situation, if the dragon wants virgins, how is it decided who gets to fuck?

[PoliteNewb]

As a corollary to this situation, if the dragon wants virgins, how is it decided who gets to fuck?

I think the default is that at any given time in a given population, SOMEONE is going to be a virgin...so it's less about who gets to fuck and who is unlucky enough to be virginal at the time the dragon shows up.

Of course, if you're positing regular visits by the dragon, then naturally people are going to have sex as young as possible to avoid this. It has some unfortunate implications, unless (as you suggest) laws/traditions are put in place to prevent this.

The town might simply have a flat rule "no sex until you are XX age", to insure a good pool of virgins. And then they'd have to enforce it...somehow.

[mean_liar]

Why virgins? They're going to want gold. And/or magic items. Not virgins. At least, I'd imagine, not as the primary commodity.

[sabs]

Well first you have to answer the question:

What does the Dragon do if there's no Virgins in the village?
Does he kill everyone? or does he shrug and move on.
Does he have a 'detect Virgin' spell/spell-like-ability?

[Molochio]

Your observations are brilliant.
However, I suspect that a large portion of the populace simply does not care about whether the economy works or why a masterwork dagger is worth more than it's weight in gold.

Many simply want to sit down, roll some dice, break into the homes of sentient creatures, and kill them to take their stuff.
To this brigand mind set, the concerns of a functional economy are a distant, if not nonexistent thing.

[tzor]

One of the problems is that it is difficult to agree on what we are discussing. Are we discussing the specific 4E campaign world in general (which has a number of problems that make it a problem, not necessarily the “points of light”) or are we discussing the notion of “points of light” in general?

I mean really an ocean full of Nemo’s?

If we are talking about 4E in general, I can use one of 4E most absurdist principles to make the whole thing work. It’s the odd notion that the characters only encounter things of their level. I know that this thing doesn’t make a damn bit of sense, but follow me for a moment. Imagine if that was a universal constant. You never encounter anything above what you can reasonably encounter but you will always find something out that that might possibly kill you.

Now you might think that such a world isn’t dark at all, but if you don’t know that, it’s damn dark indeed. You sit in your village where you think you are safe (well you nearly broke your leg the other day chopping that tree down but that doesn’t count). Your brother, that “adventurer” told you about how he almost got killed by a monster out there. Sure the grain merchant never really had much of a problem and never saw the monsters your brother described, but when the gold merchant told him about the dragon that attacked his heavily protected caravan he doubled his own security and that was when the problems began. The more protection he added the worse his problems were.

And the guards who helped the gold merchant are talking about selecting some virgins to appease the dragon. (You realize the whole thing about virgins really is a bunch of men saying “take any female but our wives … please!” It also allowed ugly men a way to get wives because it was better than the alternative.)

The world outside is “dark” not because a Monty Python foot is going to fall on you, but because anyone who goes out is going to be challenged in their own way and most people will tend to fear the absolute worst story they heard. So since the gold merchant is always getting attacked by dragons, there are dragons everywhere! There are Nemo’s everywhere … if you are that protected gold fleet … but Joe the deep water Fisherman has only encountered a small group of …

[RobbyPants]

The town might simply have a flat rule "no sex until you are XX age", to insure a good pool of virgins. And then they'd have to enforce it...somehow.

Of course, we all know how well that works IRL, and we don't even have murderous dragons as the reason.

Why virgins? They're going to want gold. And/or magic items. Not virgins. At least, I'd imagine, not as the primary commodity.

I guess that depends on the dragon. Heroes of Horror suggests a scenario where the dragon wants pure breeding stock for his army of half-dragons. This would probably take forever to build up, and maybe "army" is a generous term, but it could be that sinister. I wouldn't want to do that with every dragon, however.

I suppose, if nothing else, it could either be as a status symbol, or perhaps out of pure spite. Maybe he does that just to remind the town how badass he is.

[fectin]

The town might simply have a flat rule "no sex until you are XX age", to insure a good pool of virgins. And then they'd have to enforce it...somehow.

Of course, we all know how well that works IRL, and we don't even have murderous dragons as the reason. :D

IRL also hasn't had to enforce inspection or punishment. It's an unsolved problem, but not necessarily unsolvable. That line of thought gets really distopian though.

[violence in the media]

Why virgins? They're going to want gold. And/or magic items. Not virgins. At least, I'd imagine, not as the primary commodity.

Because they were in Catharz' original point. Also, they're traditional. That's all.

@Molochio--With all due respect, a lot of players also want to be "roleplayers, not rollplayers" and panic at characters that can do 25 damage per attack. I don't really think we're here to limit ourselves to that mindset.

Now, that pastoral fantasy Europe thing with monsters patched in I mentioned earlier is something I grew up with. It's something I absent-mindedly do when not consciously avoiding it because there aren't a lot of sensible alternatives presented. I know I tend to make things (demi-)human centric, purely by accident, because that's what every published thing does.

How many people regularly portray hippogriff/griffon riders in their world before the PCs get to the point where that's a thing they could do? Despite the fact that the monster descriptions specifically call out some economics regarding the breeding and domestication of such creatures? That's not even supposed to be a super fantastical thing in D&D land, yet I've never visited a griffon stable in any game I've ever played in.

Hell, until this very thread, I hadn't even considered "going to petition the local ruler about the fucking gnoll problem" as sending a delegation to ask the dragon you're paying tribute to for help and having him dispatch the party of PCs. However, in a world with powerful dragons, that sort of thing is probably pretty common.

So, I'm putting the general question towards the Den as a whole--primarily as a thought exercise, but also with the idea that people could use these ideas in their games. Keep in mind that, like Frank and K did regarding the 40' of material blocking Scry and Die, there are some things that would probably need to simply be changed to make things workable.

Should I start a new thread?

[tzor]

Actually fantasy worlds have an even greater problem than the real world. In a world where that sword gash to your side can be cured without leaving a scar ... how easy is it to cure a less than one hit point tear on your flesh?

[CatharzGodfoot]

The whole dragons issue makes for an interesting sort of points of light/points of darkness. When you kill the ruling family of a goblin metropolis, you end up with a bunch of people who pretty much just want to live their lives in peace. If you play your cards right, you've just turned a major point of darkness into a major point of light.

If, on the other hand, you abandon the now defenseless goblin city, you most likely create a ruin and a bunch of pissed-off goblin adventurers who will eventually come looking for your blood. Which means, in a few game-time years, more interesting face-stabbing encounters and another spooky place to kill oozes and wights.


Pretty much any major civilization is surrounded by nomadic barbarians who will kill you and take your shit as soon as your rulers show weakness. A lot of which happens will depend on how powerful the barbarian leader is. If she's a bad-ass mother like Genghis, she can probably hold the territory and enjoy life at the top. If not, her best bet is to take what she can and head for the hills to raid another day.
Sometimes you end up with the Khanate rule of the Middle Kingdom, and sometimes you end up with the sack of Rome.

---

As for "virgins", I used them as an example because it's classic, but what I really meant is "people trained from birth to serve the purposes of the overlord". In the case of a dragon, maybe they're attractive (DCIW) and really good at scale cleaning and painting. In the case of a mindflayer, they probably just have a big head.

[fectin]

Actually fantasy worlds have an even greater problem than the real world. In a world where that sword gash to your side can be cured without leaving a scar ... how easy is it to cure a less than one hit point tear on your flesh?

Healing doesn't revert your kidneys to metanephroses, and doesn't eject grafts or tattoos, so it must be doing something weird already. Heal is a bit pricey too; cure spells explicitly don't regrow arms, so probably don't mess with virginity either.

[Molochio]

Only regeneration can restore your damaged virginity and even that does not deal with the psychological impact of having lost it in a way that was not of your choosing.

[tzor]

Actually fantasy worlds have an even greater problem than the real world. In a world where that sword gash to your side can be cured without leaving a scar ... how easy is it to cure a less than one hit point tear on your flesh?

Healing doesn't revert your kidneys to metanephroses, and doesn't eject grafts or tattoos, so it must be doing something weird already. Heal is a bit pricey too; cure spells explicitly don't regrow arms, so probably don't mess with virginity either.

Organs are hard. Tatoos are artificial substances placed under the dead skin layer. Arms are hard. Virginity is a patch of skin over an orifice. (This patch of skin can stretch and tear from a number of sources including active horse riding. It is also possible that sexual intercourse may not tear this patch of skin.) This is, therefore easy.

About as easy as the healing of any wound that required stitches to avoid a scar. In fact easier.

[sabs]

Although, if the dragon needs virgins for something
Are you sure he's using something as blatantly silly as the finger test?

Might he not be using Divining Magic to tell him "Has this person lain with another" Y/N?

[Midnight_v]

Although, if the dragon needs virgins for something
Are you sure he's using something as blatantly silly as the finger test?

Might he not be using Divining Magic to tell him "Has this person lain with another" Y/N?

How did the economy thread get here!?

There are any number of valid explanations for half-dragons in literature but mostly its just because of humans and rule 34.

[Molochio]

Goes back to my earlier point about a large number of the populace not really caring about having correct or functional economies in a fantasy realm.

In the end it all boils down to dice rolls to see who's running this, violence, and some young girl's virginity.

That is the crude truth of the matter.

[tzor]

How did the economy thread get here!?

You don't want to know. Well perhaps you do, but you won't learn how here. You see, if you really want to learn how, the same forces that drove this discussion from economu to virginity (sometimes known as the "Bevis and Butthead Discussion Migration Effect") will be applied and God knows what we would be talking about.

Speaking of which, is this the best time to mention Larry Niven's famous Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex

[Gods_Trick]

Unless theres some BoED or BoVD reasons, the dragons a perv with issues. Of course, it might be a pride thing; organic non-altered meat anyone?

Would adventurers have started out as quasi-mercenary caravan guards? Commerce is needed for civilisation, and by hook or crook sapient races are going to try. A quasi military group of pathfinders/decoys would be necessary till magic evolved enough for teleport spells.

[Daiba]

Demanding virgins, additional sexual privileges, etc. is pretty much in line with what human overlords do. In the real world. Right now.

And banging humans is probably a lot safer than going after other dragons who can plausibly pose a threat to life and hoard. Actually, Sharpfang the Rapacious is probably more worried about that comely wench being a mid-high level assassin than whether her virginity is intact. It's not like virgins are any fun in bed, anyway.

[Molochio]

The sacrifice of beautiful young virgins is customary to many things of power and their significance can not be played down or diminished as it is a well known fact that dragons demand them in tribute.

However, it's not just dragons...

In human history, the sacrifice of young virgins has also been used to placate volcanoes, facilitate magic rituals, and appease dark gods. It goes beyond their sexual acumen.

Such a thing is of no importance to a volcano afterall.
But people would throw a young virgin into the lava pit anyway.
A dragon should demand no less.

[Gods_Trick]

You know guys, it may not be rishhatra as all. Its status. Historically in the Bad Olde Times, women were commodities to be traded, and were valued for traits like beauty, cooking, wtc.

A virgin can be anything from the minimum standard to a prized commodity depending on the culture. Maybe the dragon just expects the best, so he'd rather have a cow really, but if the thing most people want is a beautiful virgin woman, the dragons going to demand one!

Of course his ideas on beauty maybe fuzzy, plus its a lot harder to figure out whos a male virgin. So we end up with fantasy status quo: sacrifice a virgin female.

[cthulhudarren]

So... has anyone come up with a system that works and make sense that we can use in a FRPG?

[mean_liar]

There are dozens. The problem is that most folks at TGDMB like to navel-gaze about a lot of shit that most players don't find interesting, at all. So there are lots of systems that make sense so long as you don't drill too deeply, and there's merit in that.

There's merit in deriding systems that don't try, and in having the opinion that you like games that go deeper, but every additional personal requirement to be implemented without a diminishing of verisimilitude and mechanical coherence diminishes the pool of available games. Even your own personal heartbreaker, the result of thirty years work, will not work/not make sense when it is tossed into a pit with the TGDMB crew who will pick it apart with their own personal requirements you never even thought of.

The idea is to pick a system whose incongruities don't distract from your group's play experience, and have fun. People aren't taking Koumei's games (Dungeon Crusade, for example) and trying to model economics with it, they're killing shit and having a blast. Does that game not work? Does it not make sense?

[Spike]

Well, the first step is to ignore Frank's rant. He has obviously never heard of Commodities Money, which persisted up until the last, oh, century or two as the standard basis of economics, and yet we weren't all piss poor dirt farmers staring mournfully at our piles of worthless shekels that some asshole dropped off in return for our barley and women... and that we have no earthly use for...

Never mind that its still used today, arising spontaneously in prisons, among other places.

If you actually want to worry about your economic system... instead of just assuming its running just fine in the background regardless of the presence of angry hobos who stab fuckers in the face for their shinies... then you'll want to determine a real value to your unit of wealth. What will a copper coin (be it a penny, a yaun or even a blandly generic "Copper Piece") buy? What do you have to do to get one?

You might even research the "Terra", and use that as a basis for a monetary system, basing the value of coinage off of the commodities people actually want, thought this has always proven difficult to implement in the real world.

But commodities are step two. What is available locally? What do they have to trade for? How far away are these trade goods coming from? What happens when the local warlord invades trade-i-stan? Of course, you are looking at raw materials here, food stuffs, ores, lumber... shit like that. Is the local kingdom a net importer or net exporter of food?

Building a complete, viable, economy that makes sense includes all of that, for every nation in the trade network and accounts for changes to the political landscape and to the status of resources. Of course, you now have to consider the possibility of a tin shortage wiping out all of civilization for a thousand years (the Bronze Age Collapse) until alternatives show up...

... and we haven't even gotten into magic yet.