God help me, I'm being bull-rushed into a Pathfinder game

[TheFlatline]

The topic says almost all of it. I have to do chargen tomorrow. What's more, the DM is more or less insisting that I play an alchemist because he thinks they're awesome.

I know next to nothing about pathfinder. I know it's based on 3.5 D&D. I haven't read any books. I really have stayed away from any threads on it because I don't care much. All I know about the party is that someone is playing a wizard who can cast magic missile 13 times a day at level one.

So what am I about to get myself into? Is there any advice? Is an alchemist a fucked up lame class? Any optimization tips?

My D&D style has always been to rogues and sometimes clerics. I don't dig traditional mages in D&D, and fighters got boring as they fell behind the power curve.

Should I just claim to have a case of the plague and duck out of the game?

[Avoraciopoctules]

I know little about Pathfinder. If my homies insisted that I play an alchemist in their Pathfinder game, I would in turn insist that my alchemist have a flamethrower and go into loving detail describing the fragile canisters of sloshing inflammables strapped to the character, as well as the horrific pyroclasm likely to result if one were ruptured.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Pathfinder is 3.5 with a bunch of meaningless rules changes. There are also nerfs to Rogues, Barbarians, Shapeshifting Druids, and Melee Clerics, and big boosts to Arcane Spellcasters. Flask Rogues were removed and replaced with Alchemists, which suck. It's probably best to just play a Wizard (now with more HP) or a Cleric, just like in 3.5. Expect your DM to do a lot of rules lawyering and talking about "only playing with Core Books" a lot, even as he/she ignores Pathfinder rules in favor of 3.5 rules or makes up their own shit up on the fly. If they are good friends or you know the DM isn't a fuckwad, you might want to play, but otherwise... meh.

[Slade]

The topic says almost all of it. I have to do chargen tomorrow. What's more, the DM is more or less insisting that I play an alchemist because he thinks they're awesome.

I know next to nothing about pathfinder. I know it's based on 3.5 D&D. I haven't read any books. I really have stayed away from any threads on it because I don't care much. All I know about the party is that someone is playing a wizard who can cast magic missile 13 times a day at level one.

So what am I about to get myself into? Is there any advice? Is an alchemist a fucked up lame class? Any optimization tips?

My D&D style has always been to rogues and sometimes clerics. I don't dig traditional mages in D&D, and fighters got boring as they fell behind the power curve.

Should I just claim to have a case of the plague and duck out of the game?

First, don't panic.
So are you playing at 1st?
The alchemist isn't bad per se. It has class feature to throw a bomb/assemble in same action: standard. It is a splash weapon: this is good as it hurts more than primary target. Drawback, unless you take fast throw discovery limited to 1 throw/turn.
You get to add your Int bonus as a damage bonus to any splash weapon so Dex and Int are your go to stats. You deal minimum damage as splash damage.
Granted it is a touch attack: you don't need that much Dex as most things have low Touch AC. You might need point blank shot/precise so you don't have extra -4 penalty to hit if enemy in melee though (up to you).
Sadly, Pathfinder nerfed splash weapons so can't be sneak attacked: so don't multiclass into rogue for sneak attack. Won't work.

You also get a mutagen: basically your Mr. Hyde juice.
You get +4 alchemy bonus to a physical stat for a while (10 min/lv), but during this time you get -2 to a mental stat based on stat chosen to increase.
Dex boosting lowers Wisdom and unless you face a lot of will save attacks
if best thing to increase. Con boosting lowers Cha (almost best choice except Dex improves hit chance).
Note: this mutagen isn't daily. You can make another after the battle
but need 1 hr downtime to brew it.

Issue with Raising Strength to emulate hulk: you are lowering your Int (your casting stat). Since normally if your casting stat is lowered you'd lose the bonus spell slots attached so that is bad. You could cast the bonus spell slot first than use Str mutagen though.

You are caster, but you are limited to buffs.

[K]

Pathfinder's business exists because most people would rather do some crappy gaming rather than no gaming at all, so you won't take a lot of crap for playing from most people.

That being said, it sounds like you'd like a Cleric. They got a power boost in Pathfinder, so they are still a good character to play. The Witch and Oracle are both functional as well, but they are more castery than I think you'd want.

The Summoner is also weird and unbalanced, but playable.

Magic item creation is an actual improvement since it only costs gold now, so being a Cleric with maxxed armor and weapons at half price is only good.

The Rogue got some additional abilities to offset the fact that all the good Rogue combos got stealth nerfed.... so if want to play a DD Rogue, then forget it, but if you want the other stuff you are still on course and slightly better.

Everything else is crap. The Alchemist is really awful despite sounding cool. The Magus is a joke. The rest of the core classes are still as badly balanced as before.

[TheFlatline]

I appreciate the input. The sad thing is that I played to death 3.x and am burned out on most D20, so I don't have many high hopes for this game.

I *think* another friend who is already playing it stated that it's a written campaign for 3.x that I played through years ago... with the same DM. So I'm going to have to slam a big thick wall down between what I know and what my character knows, and I kind of figure that my only way to actually enjoy this second take through the story is by having an interesting character build.

[Koumei]

Just do what I did: constantly insult both the MC and Pathfailure as a whole until they get the hint and quietly fold the game.

[Psychic Robot]

That being said, it sounds like you'd like a Cleric. They got a power boost in Pathfinder, so they are still a good character to play.

No, Jason Bulmahn removed their heavy armor proficiency. They're now totally balanced because medium armor only grants a +6 bonus to AC.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Just do what I did: constantly insult both the MC and Pathfailure as a whole until they get the hint and quietly fold the game.

Fuck that noise. The solution is to play a violent, racist Elven Leaf Blade that tries to murder people at every given opportunity. It worked out great for me!

[fectin]

Play anything that is a wizard and has command undead?

[Archmage]

I'm actually playing a PF summoner (in a non-PF game) and can attest that they're very solid. You can take a lot of potentially interesting routes with the eidolon, but the gist is that you're a battlefield control specialist who has a pocket fighter, and said pocket fighter is considerably better than a "real" fighter.

You don't really benefit from PrCs at all because your eidolon's strength is directly tied to your summoner class level and there are no PrCs that continue to improve it. You have cleric BAB, d8 hit dice, and a bard-like spellcasting progression, but your spell list is full of awesome shit--pretty much everything you would want as a caster off the conjuration list and a whole ton of other utility, including buffs.

If you don't want to emphasize being a caster, but you still want to rock face, I'd recommend it--if you look at it in reverse, it's like playing a fighter with your own personal wizard to throw around haste and glitterdust. The roleplaying opportunities are also potentially kind of entertaining.

[Juton]

People here really like to harp on the rules, but despite all the flaws every Pathfinder game I've seen seems to run as smooth as a comparable 3.5. With a good DM and a good group a group of Pathfinder is better than not playing.

[MfA]

Is an alchemist a fucked up lame class?

Yes it is, in that there is not a whole lot of flexibility ... just like most classes in PF there is one narrow path of progression. Which in this case is "fast bombs" at level 8 and effect riders (smoke bomb->stink bomb->fast bomb).

As for the summoner ... what a piece of work. A pet which can outdamage a fighter or barbarian at pretty much all levels and a pretty decent spell list ... just don't try to play it as a summoner.

[magnuskn]

Just do what I did: constantly insult both the MC and Pathfailure as a whole until they get the hint and quietly fold the game.

So, be a fuckwad and try to purposely and preemptively ruin everyones game? That's a good way to losing friends and playing with your wee-wee instead of with other people.

How about Flatline actually plays the game and sees if the campaign is fun, instead of you guys egging him on to destroy the group?

And some actual advice: Try an Inquisitor, they are actually a well-rounded class. They don't seem that good throughout the first few levels, but really come into their own when they get the Bane ability. Also, floppy hats.

[TOZ]

Also, floppy hats have nothing to do with mechanics.

[hogarth]

Is an alchemist a fucked up lame class?

It's similar to the 3.5 warlock class, sort of. So it's moderately entertaining at low levels, but drops off in utility at higher levels (just like every other non-full-caster class in existence).

[Molochio]

Do not bemoan the end of things you are comfortable with. Accept your fate with dignity and composure.

By most accounts, this system will actually prove rewarding to a well played mage so you need only flow with that current instead of against it if you wish to have a comfortable adventure.
Wherein lies the misery?

Did you really want to use a great sword?
Even if you do choose to be a fighter, your suffering and demise will add to the beauty of the stories' tapestry.

Surely you can appreciate such a thing, yes? Yes...

[magnuskn]

Also, floppy hats have nothing to do with mechanics.

And who cares why? I can give color commentary all I like why a certain class may appeal to someone, besides being able to kill things effectively.

[Username17]

My honest suggestion is to interact with Pathfinder as little as possible. Take a non-pathfinder class that works as-is like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler and simply ask your DM to convert it.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Well I nabbed the advanced character guide PDF for pathfinder and was... completely unenthusiastic. I don't find alchemist to be entertaining at all. You sort of can buff at higher levels, you can increase one physical stat (which is probably a dump stat) at the cost of a mental stat, making you... not much of a physical person still. I just dunno...

The other advanced classes don't seem particularly exciting either. The summoner sounds brokenly and vaguely interesting, but the rest just don't get me going. I mean, the Inquisitor sounds like a gimped cleric. I can proclaim judgement on someone and get a +1 to attack and damage. Isn't that Magic Weapon for the cleric, which is a 1st or 2nd level spell? The rest of the stuff feels similar.

I'd take Frank's advice but I gotta be honest... I'm so incredibly burned out on D&D that I was hoping for something that felt... different. Maybe I'll try to duck out of the game after all. I'm not excited at all about what I've seen in Pathfinder.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

If you're forced into playing an alchemist it's, as said above, a pretty simple progression. Be either a gnome (for more bombs) or Half orc (for more damage per bomb), throw fast/precise/stink bombs(assuming stink is round/level, like other effects), grab madness bomb/Dispelling bomb for situational riders, sticky/concentrate poison for all the poison attacks you'll be trying to make when not using bombs, extend and eternal potion for permanent haste or displacement, and the mutagen discoveries, ending with true mutagen at 20th. The alchemist class is one of the few not screwed over completely by using tenser's transformation, so go ahead and use it and the mutagen after you're out of bombs and pretend to be a fighter, using other buffs as needed.

It still is a totally shitty class.

[MfA]

I mean, the Inquisitor sounds like a gimped cleric.

Compared to a 3.5 cleric yes.

But the cleric spell list is still a bit anaemic if you can only use PF sources and with the removal of divine power/favor stacking you can't really bulk out very well any more either. The Inquisitor is much better at ramping up lots of stacking bonuses for melee, most with swift actions too.

I can proclaim judgement on someone and get a +1 to attack and damage. Isn't that Magic Weapon for the cleric, which is a 1st or 2nd level spell? The rest of the stuff feels similar.

It scales, and the bonus stacks with enhancement bonuses.

Really the inquisitor ain't that bad.

[tzor]

Floppy hats ... there is a Lankhmar adventure where the NPC group all wear odd headgear ... it's on the tip of my tongue.

[Molochio]

The basis if pathfinder seems to rest heavily in finding a class that does not suck.
So heavily, in fact, that playing a none pathfinder related class appears to be the most viable option for a gaming experience which is not defined by facets of misery and mediocrity.

[hogarth]

The basis if pathfinder seems to rest heavily in finding a class that does not suck.

The same is true for 3E.