Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Finkin]

Can we get back to talking about how Paizo is making firearms rules worse?

Oh god. What are they doing now?

Read the newest playtest rules.

Choke on your laughter and/or bile.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Read the newest playtest rules.

Choke on your laughter and/or bile.

Guns with no range, prone to explosion, and a bunch of stupid fucking Grit rules? What's not to like?

[CCarter]

Fuckin' grognards, always makin' shit up. Don't they know there are RULES?!

Nobody followed the rules in 2e. That made actually knowing them less relevant.

Hell, I had a 2e character with a negative Charisma, much like Kaelik (that last part is just a joke ).

There were rules for negative Charisma in 1st edition legends and lore...
Using them, I once had a 2nd ed. character with negative Charisma as well. Racial -2, and the GM thought it would be fun to roll stats with d20.

[Kaelik]

Hell, I had a 2e character with a negative Charisma, much like Kaelik (that last part is just a joke ).

Hey, dump stat is a dump stat. Where else was I gonna put that 4?

[K]

The firearms rules are a joke. With short-ranged shots being ranged touch attacks, they make all other forms of attacking meaningless. It doesn't even matter that you don't get Str bonuses to damage because you can just use Deadly Aim (Pathfinder's version of Power Attack for ranged) to add lots of damage. The guys making the firearm rules obviously didn't even make a sample character before they put out the playtest..... you know, because then they might find out how thier own rules interacted with the new parts.

But, with the stupid reload rules you are going to be carrying 10+ guns enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon and Quickdrawing like a fool (though maybe you only need the bullets enchanted?).

You are also going to be forced to say "grit" way too much. I expect that you'll hate the word sometime between your first and second adventure. We should all learn a lesson in this: naming a key and often used mechanic as a set-up for a bit of wordplay for a 20th level capstone power is lame.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The firearms rules are a joke. With short-ranged shots being ranged touch attacks, they make all other forms of attacking meaningless.

I totally missed that part, and I'm really looking forward to seeing people cheese out that shit.

[magnuskn]

The firearms rules are a joke. With short-ranged shots being ranged touch attacks, they make all other forms of attacking meaningless. It doesn't even matter that you don't get Str bonuses to damage because you can just use Deadly Aim (Pathfinder's version of Power Attack for ranged) to add lots of damage.

No, you can't. Read the feat before complaining.

Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this
feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

[Username17]

I find it modestly annoying how many pathfinder rules involve arguments about whether a weapon attack which is resolved as a touch attack under certain circumstances counts as a touch attack for purposes of things that trigger on touch attacks.

There are people who believe that it does, which means you can't use Deadly Aim on a close range firearm but you can use it at longer range and that firearms bypass all DR (but only at short range). And there are people who believe it doesn't because that's totally retarded.

-Username17

[magnuskn]

I find it modestly annoying how many pathfinder rules involve arguments about whether a weapon attack which is resolved as a touch attack under certain circumstances counts as a touch attack for purposes of things that trigger on touch attacks.

There are people who believe that it does, which means you can't use Deadly Aim on a close range firearm but you can use it at longer range and that firearms bypass all DR (but only at short range). And there are people who believe it doesn't because that's totally retarded.

-Username17

Well, the rules are the rules. Functionally, it's not much more retarded than a 200 HP guy being as combat-ready at 200 HP as at 1 HP. It's an abstract game system, after all.

[virgil]

That's one way for a rogue to get their flasks back, at least in the opening round of the fight when they have the surprise.

[K]

The firearms rules are a joke. With short-ranged shots being ranged touch attacks, they make all other forms of attacking meaningless. It doesn't even matter that you don't get Str bonuses to damage because you can just use Deadly Aim (Pathfinder's version of Power Attack for ranged) to add lots of damage.

No, you can't. Read the feat before complaining.

Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this
feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Actually, it says "resolves against the touch AC" in the firearms section. The words "touch attack" don't actually appear in the firearms text, so you can make a strong argument that Deadly Aim does apply to firearms (and that firearms are specifically worded in such a way to allow it).

But, if you can't use Deadly Aim at close range then it actually is a nerf to firearms of greater harm than if they got it. As a character completely inclined to go full Dex since you aren't adding Str damage, the fact that you can't Deadly Aim for more damage means that you can still be doing substantially more damage at close range by tossing shuriken.

Guns..... in all ways worse than throwing little pieces of metal.

Still, people are going to take Deadly Aim so that they deliberately miss for Gunslinger powers that only work on misses. You'll need it because getting your close range shots to miss is going to be wicked hard even if you close you eyes.

Nothing like spending a feat so that you can fail harder for power.

Basically, firearms are the new flasks.... only a Rogue is actually benefiting from their unique mechanics.

[hogarth]

Guns..... in all ways worse than throwing little pieces of metal.

As far as I know, that has been the explicit intent of firearms rules in every edition of D&D, ever.

[Wyzzard]

Wow.. that Grit bullshit is fucking crazy, especially the "daring act" thingie.

Seriously, less than 50% chance of success? Are you joking? Apparently, Russian Roulette just isn't daring enough for the Gunslinger? Or maybe Paizils use automatics for that?

[virgil]

You're just not a grizzled cowboy unless you're falling and tripping like you're in a slapstick.

What I'm trying to figure out is this damn hard-on developers have for misfire rates. Is it to appease the equally aroused sphincter they have for making bullets ignore the rules (touch attacks, exploding dice, etc)?

[Maxus]

See, this is something a lot of people fall prey to because, on one level, it makes so much sense to limit the technology in a setting like D&D. Make it unreliable, and risky because "It's so crude!"

But it leads to overcomplicated crap. I like Dragonmech as a setting. The actual mech rules are convoluted pieces of crap. The idea of "Pilot a giant robot!" is cool. The idea of "Okay, which way are you facing? Oh, hey, you're facing the wrong way. What your Mech's maneuverability? Oh, okay, you'll take two rounds to turn and face your attacker. And you get a -4 penalty to attack when when you do, because you're firing hurriedly. Also, holy crap, I just noticed your mech's steam-powered cannon takes up too much of your PU so your mech is unbalanced and falling ov--oh, you shelled out for the extra capacity? Let me see that on your sheet...That doesn't look right. Let's calculator that up"

When it would be better to just do a character replacement and not have so many exceptions to the normal rules.

In the same vein, it's so tempting to make D&D-style firearms unreliable and risky and crude. But it's so much better for the game that someone can just say, "Yeah, I quickdraw my gun and shoot him because he's obviously gearing up to attack...Woohoo! I rolled a 16!"

[DMReckless]

None of it matters after 11th level anyway, because

Gunfighters retire at level 11

This is not giving me a very favorable impression of Steven Radney MacFarland's first foray into Pathfinder Design (he is the primary responder on Gunfighters and apparently the class' designer/author.)

As it has been pointed out elsewhere, the gunslinger's ammo is expensive--more expensive than any other class.

We want to playtest this feat as an interesting and thematic way to allow the gunslinger a slight discount on ammunition. We also wanted to make it a hard choice. Grit can be hard to come by and I’m not convinced this is the best use of it.

That said, I’m also not convinced this feat lives exactly as this iteration. I’m very interested in the use of this feat in actual play.

What this feat is not meant to do (and maybe some future version needs to say this explicitly) is method of generating cash during down time.

That’s just silly. For playtests, please treat it as silly. The goal is to make a fun and interesting way to gain extra ammo when the chips are down, or to play an interesting character that seems to keep ammo in strange places.

No, Steven, your feat is the silly thing. The fact you published it- even for playtesting- well...

But at least you may be paying attention to some of the feedback...

As for Deadly Aim, I am of a mind to make it work in the first range increment, but as of yet we haven't really discussed the right way to do that. That's some work for next week.

Hey, look it may work!

[Psychic Robot]

Most classes suck in their first iteration. They're in the rough draft phase, and that's fine. The problem is that Paizo only does two iterations: the rough draft, and the slightly-polished draft. Revision in writing is about ripping the guts out of a piece, rearranging its limbs, and adding new organs where necessary.

The fact that they have a bad playtest class isn't damning. The fact that they'll publish a bad playtest class is damning.

[hogarth]

None of it matters after 11th level anyway, because

Gunfighters retire at level 11

OH MY GOD LEVEL ELEVEN CHARACTERS CAN MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!

[Roy]

The important thing to keep in mind is that stupid people have a real thing for seeing non stupid people fuck up and do stupid shit to look like a fool against their will. This is why "I like critical fumbles" is the same as saying "I am a terrible abomination of a person, who should have been swallowed, causing my mother to die of poison instead of birthing me".

This, of course is why the Paizils have a fumble deck, that they really like. It is also why they are making a class that is quite literally Powered by Failure. Anyone that plays the class is forced to look as stupid as possible, therefore giving the Paizils their kicks as they drag others down to their level. Crab Bucket Syndrome.

Oh and don't forget that they shove it to beatsticks by not letting you use the (gimped, nerfed) PA on touch attacks at all.

[Fuchs]

Any mechanic that makes you want to miss with an attack so you can do something better is so stupid it should never be printed.

[Roy]

Any mechanic that makes you want to miss with an attack so you can do something better is so stupid it should never be printed.

Paizil.

[Fuchs]

And "token" mechanics should be banned just because they add too much annoying bookkeeping even if they did not lead to players seeking ways to get as many tokens as possible no matter how counter-intuitive the actions taken are.

[Parthenon]

"I am a terrible abomination of a person, who should have been swallowed, causing my mother to die of poison instead of birthing me".

Just wondering, why is a person said to be the sperm and not the egg?

[Username17]

"I am a terrible abomination of a person, who should have been swallowed, causing my mother to die of poison instead of birthing me".

Just wondering, why is a person said to be the sperm and not the egg?

Because when ancient people were coming up with homunculus theories, sperm was available to be looked at and eggs weren't. On account of sperm coming out of the body and accumulating in actually puddles.

So observable evidence was that there was this white stuff that came out of men that would make a baby happen if you put it into a woman, and then there was this red stuff that came out of women that didn't do anything except be gross. Hence:

It's not completely stupid, it's just completely out of date. But now it's a figure of speech, so we're stuck with it. Even though we have microscopes now.

-Username17

[Roy]

"I am a terrible abomination of a person, who should have been swallowed, causing my mother to die of poison instead of birthing me".

Just wondering, why is a person said to be the sperm and not the egg?

It's simpler than what Frank says, but yeah. Eggs don't really come out on their own. Sperm does. And a common, if not very effective contraceptive measure is to pull out before climax. So yeah.