What the hell is wrong with White Wolf's fluff writers?

[souran]

That's great, but nWoD doesn't use the cardinal virtues, it uses the Seven Heavenly Virtues from Catholic teachings.

The seven heavenly virtues are just aristotles 4 cardinal virtues plus the three theological virtues. The monks stole aristoles philsophical explanation of positive action wholesale because unfortuanely the new testament is heavy on doctrine and whose in/whose out and while it offers a metaphsyiscs (do it or god is mad) it offers very little epestimeology and only a nuiance of ethics.

Now don't get me wrong, there was clear Christian thought processes going into Masquerade. It just wasn't that in-your-face about it.

All I am really saying is that I think its a strech to say that the seven deadly sins/seven heavenly virtues are really that Christian. They simply aren't.

ESPECIALLY if the kind of christianity you are familiar with is one that isn't stuck in the 12th century.

The virtues/vices contain nothing about being batpticed. They contain nothing about the golden rule, which is actually the ONLY commandment that Christians are bound to that they can all agree on. There is nothing about Jesus in them at all. The deadly sins have no direct link to original sin, they were devised as a sort of medevil psychology of the ID. They don't have any refeences to biblical passages, they do not match any of the numerious passages in the old testament were god lists all the crap that makes him mad.

What they are is very OLD WORLD. It seems stale and chafing because its practically a pre-enlightment view of morality and sin. You might even call it a Gothic morality. I think that was part of the reason it was chosen.

This is not true. You can only lose humanity when you make a sin against the level you are on or below. And thinking about sex or violence isn't a sin at any point.

The table as usual for White Wolf is super subjective. Its hard to think of a way in which thoughts of violence are not selfish. They defiantly constitute premeditation which is at the low end of the table. The sex is not in Masquarde. However the table has enough weasle words that a storyteller can probably draw a line between it and something on the table.

The first thing to notice is that the enlightenment you get at the end of the path of Humanity is actually pop-culture Buddhism. You don't transcend gluttony, you don't accept Jesus, you escape selfishness.

Selfishness is really the antithises of all morality (unless you are nietzeche or Ayn Rand [who is little more than a second rate Nietzche]). Using the requirements you have there there is also nothing christian about the virtues/vices.

However, the OWOD book also discussed the idea of a possible state of vampiric enlightenment where you might even get to be human again that viewed the humanity scale as a "ten-step" program and assumed a higher power.

Infact, the OWOD books often felt like there were a lot of new agers on their writing staffs.

The second thing to note is this piece:

You should be aware, however, that vampire embraced in other cultures or other eras of the world will probably have a different view of humanity. This was just an example of what Humanity would be like for a average citizen of the world today. A vampire who used to be a Viking raider or Samurai in life would probably have a very different set of "morals" than those mentioned above.

And NWOD says that players are free to make up additional vices and virtues. So What.

And the third thing to note is that Humanity wasn't even mandatory. You were totally allowed to go apeshit and follow other moral codes that had been made up by power gamers. Like the Path of Typhon:

Yeah. If you can find the deep Christian message in that, I'll be very impressed.

-Username17

Um, in NWOD you get a BONUS for acting your vice. True you get a bigger bonus for acting your Virtue, but your vice is not a penalty. Hell your not even really supposed to sturggle against it. Your supposed to indulge it. Thats pretty much counter to the "christain" use of the vices.

Also I never read anywhere that humanity/OWOD morality scales were any more or less "optional" than NWOD vices and virtues. Now I think as an NWOD player you would want a vice and virtue because they mechanically benefit you and as an OWOD player I wouldn't want my character taken over by the DM because he can on a whim.

And now I am aruging for a game I don't even LIKE against another game that I also don't like.

But while I really don't like a lot of things in NWOD "the overt and heavy handed christian message" is not one of things I find annoying becuase I can't freaking find it. And I hate that crap, I don't like Narnia for exactly that reason.

[Username17]

Souran, what the fuck are you arguing?

Are you arguing that the 7 deadly sins and 7 heavenly virtues aren't taken from Christian theology? Are you arguing that they aren't immediately recognized as being Christian theology by absolutely everyone? Are you arguing that the oWoD morality structure was recognizable as Christian dogma from anywhere? Because if you're arguing any of those things, you're wrong. Totally and unremittingly wrong. And if you aren't arguing any of those things, you aren't even arguing against my point, you're just typing walls of text.

Infact, the OWOD books often felt like there were a lot of new agers on their writing staffs.

Yes. Exactly. New Age moral ramblings. Counter culture. Not Christian. The kind of thing that actually appeals to young women who rebel by wearing black lipstick.

-Username17

[talozin]

I'm pretty sure the only time the Christian God thing was explicitly hammered down in oWoD was in the "Time of Judgement" horseshit.

Yeah. The "Gehenna" book for Vampire had like four different scenarios for the end of the world, one of which was explicitly Christian -- you got locked in a church for 40 days and 40 nights, or something, and if you survived you were literally judged by God as to whether you deserved to live or be destroyed. Now that I think about it, I think one of the others had Caine featured as an actual participant who was recognizably the guy from the Cain and Abel story, so there's some Christianity there, too.

But the book also had several other perfectly good (well ... it had several other) scenarios, one of which involved the Gangrel Antediluvian merging with the Earth and having the planet swallow its enemies whole. So even then, if you didn't want any Jesus peanut butter in your vampiric chocolate, you didn't have to.

[souran]

Frank;

I realize that for you white wolf games are all about getting a little bit of tail. However, if you think that the reason there are fewer goth chicks wanting to play spanky time vampire games with you is because the morality of NWOD is to christian you are wrong.

Seriously: What the fuck are you complaining about. Just show me how the vice/virtue system is so fucking overtly christian that it is driving people out of the game.

I mean, surely you can point to some aspect in the text that reads as a coded come to jesus message or SOMETHING other than "monks wrote these out so its christian". You know what Mills and Kant where christians too. Does that make there philsophy christian?

You argued that the humanity system let you function with a non standard humanity scale. Fine NWOD allows you to have alternate vices and virtues as well. So issue fucking solved.

You argued that OWOD was somehow way less christian than the current game except that people pointed out that in OWOD vampires are decendants of freaking CAIN and the only stated goal of the game in the core rulebook was to become the freaking vampire jesus.

Seriously, you are unlikely to find anybody as welling to jump on the "this is to much christian propaganda" than me and I think you are PULLING SHIT OUT OF YOUR ASS to find reasons to dislike NWOD. You don't need to do that becuase NWOD sucks without making up shit.

Like most of the people of my generation I associate these items LESS with church and MORE with kevin spacey killing a prostitute by making her John use an...aperatus. Which as I mentioned earlier appears to be the only freaking source text that the NWOD author's consulted to develop the entire moral system of their game about how angsty it is to be a vampire.

Yes. Exactly. New Age moral ramblings. Counter culture. Not Christian. The kind of thing that actually appeals to young women who rebel by wearing black lipstick.

Except that all those women also think that the healing power of pyramids and crystals is crap too. Occiasionally you find some that are into wicca but they are usually NOT into most of the new age mysticism that was in the white wolf crap. That is nerdy fan boy stuff for people who have read to much anita blake.

[Username17]

Just show me how the vice/virtue system is so fucking overtly christian that it is driving people out of the game.

Look, I know this may come as a surprise to you, but people who wear pentagrams on their neck actually usually don't have a comprehensive knowledge of what is in the bible. Nor do they have any real understanding of the subtle nuances of sectarian Christian dogma. They can't name the ten commandments (of course, neither can most actual Christians), and they can't tell you whether or not Purgatory is biblical (it's not).

But here's what they can do: they can recognize when something has had Christian names plastered all over it, and they don't like it. The origins of the seven heavenly virtues don't mean fuck all to people who listen to Cradle of Filth. They don't know that it is a merger of cardinal and theological virtues, and they wouldn't give a flying fuck if they did. They are not part of that club, they are proud of not being part of that club, they wear Bad Religion patches on their backpack, and they are fucking pissed when someone tells them that they have to wear a sorting hat and get put into some arbitrary Christian categories. Their knowledge of Christianity is entirely superficial, and that's sufficient for their needs, because they have no intention of using Christian stuff for anything.

And you know how I know that they are pissed? Because I talked to them, and they told me that.

-Username17

[Orion]

Kant's *moral* philosophy *is* christian. I know a handful of nonchristians who take him seriously, but only a handful.

[Spike]

Its equally valid to point out that by going to vices and virtues they also cut your choices to a third of what they used to be under nature and demeanor.

And since most people like choice, that that is a fat check in the 'bad change' column.

[souran]

But here's what they can do: they can recognize when something has had Christian names plastered all over it, and they don't like it. The origins of the seven heavenly virtues don't mean fuck all to people who listen to Cradle of Filth. They don't know that it is a merger of cardinal and theological virtues, and they wouldn't give a flying fuck if they did. They are not part of that club, they are proud of not being part of that club, they wear Bad Religion patches on their backpack, and they are fucking pissed when someone tells them that they have to wear a sorting hat and get put into some arbitrary Christian categories. Their knowledge of Christianity is entirely superficial, and that's sufficient for their needs, because they have no intention of using Christian stuff for anything.

Except that isn't remotely accurate either. Amazingly only about 1 in 3 of the roleplayers I know happens to be a total fuckwit and not shockingly that also applies to Goths and vampire wannabies and pretty much every other group. So while there are plenty of goths who don't know jack about anything there are also plenty of goths of can feaking parse milton and can figure out that a game that ENCOURAGES acting out your VICES is not trying to making them have a come to jesus moment.

And you know how I know that they are pissed? Because I talked to them, and they told me that.

-Username17

Oh noes! anectdotal evidence. I too have talked to goths, and other subculters that like to roleplay and LARP. You know what? Not a single freaking one of them said "Vampire the requiem is to CHRISTIAN and thats why I don't play it."

I have heard that its borning. That they removed somebodies favorite type of vampire (usually the fact that there are no insane malks anymore) that the game has no story. That people were to attached to their old characters. I have heard that without the masquerade there is no reason NOT to have a world of vampire overlords. I have heard combat is boring. I have heard the powers suck. I have heard that the new game is to angsty. I have heard it is to twilight. I have heard that its to Joss Wheedon (another complaint I don't get).

However, before your tirade I had never heard anybody complain that VTR, WTF, MTA, or any of their games was "too christian" or that people didn't want to play it because of the freaking vices and virtues system.

At least the complaint about not having as many is a real thing.

[Username17]

Souran, stop being a moron. Subtle points of theology don't mean anything in this context. The seven deadly sins and heavenly virtues are Christian themes. They were created by Christians, for Christians, and about Christians. People who are not Christian do not conceptualize virtue or vice in that way.

No one except the terminally anti-Christian zealot is going to object much to having the option to put Christian morals on your sheet. But only cultural Christians so bigoted that they literally cannot perceive the fact that other people don't think like they do are not going to be offended by being required to define their character in terms of Christian morality.

-Username17

[souran]

Frank,

quit looking for crap to be offended by.

Souran, stop being a moron. Subtle points of theology don't mean anything in this context. The seven deadly sins and heavenly virtues are Christian themes. They were created by Christians, for Christians, and about Christians. People who are not Christian do not conceptualize virtue or vice in that way.

The simple fact is that the seven virtues/seven sins are a EUROCENTRIC and ARCHAIC model of morality. I think that is why the authors chose it.

The idea that the system is OFFENSIVE to non christians because they don't conceptualize vice and virute that way is offensive to christians becuase NOBODY conceptualizes vice and virtue that way. Its a fairly arbitrary morality system much like alignment.

However, I am still waiting for whats so Christian about them as to be worthy of scorn. Who is seriously going to argue that the elements of the vices are not BAD. Also, if it was an out for OWOD to allow you to develop new humanity tables for alternate ideaologies then it should be easier to develop new vices and virtues based on how they "conceptualize" negative and postivie aspects of character. The rules are identical. Infact, if it is really true that non christians do not conceptualize the listed vices as vices or virtues as virtues then they would almost have to naturally develop alternate vices and virtues more inline with their moral outlook.

No one except the terminally anti-Christian zealot is going to object much to having the option to put Christian morals on your sheet. But only cultural Christians so bigoted that they literally cannot perceive the fact that other people don't think like they do are not going to be offended by being required to define their character in terms of Christian morality.

-Username17

So the issue is how it forces people to define their characters. If that is the case then players are REALLY obligated to define their characters by a more native morality. The concept of VICE and VIRTUE are not christian by any means. Every sysem of ethics, every culture, and every religion has characteristics that they extol and others they abhor.

However, the fact is that most cultures revere courage and most find excessive anger to be a flaw of character. Most cultures and moralties argue that envy and greed are unhealhty while wisdom and compassion make a person a better person.

Now its easy to argue that some of those are more dramatic than others.
Which is why it seems to me that 80%+ of male vamps end up with virtue of courage and vice of anger. While 80%+ of women are compassion and Pride or Envy.

[Username17]

Also, if it was an out for OWOD to allow you to develop new humanity tables for alternate ideaologies then it should be easier to develop new vices and virtues based on how they "conceptualize" negative and postivie aspects of character. The rules are identical. Infact, if it is really true that non christians do not conceptualize the listed vices as vices or virtues as virtues then they would almost have to naturally develop alternate vices and virtues more inline with their moral outlook.

Are you really saying that there is identity between something that has more than 20 different options with new options being produced all the time in splat books, expansions, and even packaged adventures; and something which has exactly seven different possibilities and which is never expanded upon even after over a hundred books have been brought to print?

oWoD specifically had not only alternate moral paths to choose from, and a build-your-own moral path system, but it even had a specific rule to allow you to add or subtract specific taboos from your character's personal culturally derived humanity. In contrast, this is literally the only acknowledgement that other cultures exist in nWoD:

The seven Virtues and Vices detailed below are ostensibly drawn from Western, Judeo-Christian beliefs (e.g., the Seven Heavenly Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins), but it's important to note that nearly all cultures value these ethics and revile these sins.

Yeeeah. This is Judeo-Christian, but if you're a Roman Centurion or a Chinese Bureaucrat, you still have to select from the Judeo-Christian list. Because Judeo-Christian values are valued by everyone. It seriously says that.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

It's worth noting that vices & virtues aren't in oWOD, and have no direct analog. You had nature and demeanor, which was a philosophical outlook that you held (nature) and that you presented (demeanor).

Vices & Virtues aren't even comparable to Humanity in Vampire (which is the big game, from which all other WOD settings are derived). Humanity in oWOD (and I guess in nWOD) was the effort of a dead, alien creature to control predatory instincts and avoid going batshit crazy and killing/eating everything.

Only, in Requiem, that's all that you get. In oWOD, some vampires could reject that notion and follow a path (or a road if you were an ancient vampire), and forge a completely alien moral code that you clung to in order to keep from going batshit monster crazy.

In Requiem, you get groups like the Ordos Dracul, who specifically explore the capabilities of vampirism and try to become as inhuman as possible, and you have the Lancea Sanctum, who say "fuck it, we're monsters, we should act like monsters", and yet offers no alternate morality code for these two groups. You either cling to your humanity and fail at your covenant, or you explore your covenant's philosophy and fail at unlife sooner than you might have otherwise. That vices & virtues don't even tie into this morality system is stupid and really a missed opportunity. Tieing in regaining willpower to reinforcing your morality system for whatever supernatural you are, or risk damaging it for a quick boost, is a great conundrum.

[K]

I'm pretty sure the only time the Christian God thing was explicitly hammered down in oWoD was in the "Time of Judgement" horseshit.

Yeah. The "Gehenna" book for Vampire had like four different scenarios for the end of the world, one of which was explicitly Christian -- you got locked in a church for 40 days and 40 nights, or something, and if you survived you were literally judged by God as to whether you deserved to live or be destroyed. Now that I think about it, I think one of the others had Caine featured as an actual participant who was recognizably the guy from the Cain and Abel story, so there's some Christianity there, too.

.... and no one sees the connection where "making Christian values true" scenarios also happen to be "destroy the setting" scenarios?

It's like the writers knew that explicitly making Christianity the one true religion was the fastest way to destroy the franchise.

[talozin]

.... and no one sees the connection where "making Christian values true" scenarios also happen to be "destroy the setting" scenarios?

In fairness, even the scenarios that didn't make Christian values true were intended to destroy the setting.

To my mind, the most annoying part of the book was not that some of the canonical end of the world scenarios were explicitly Christian, and more that how "serious" a scenario was seemed to be directly related to how Christian it was. You could almost hear the editorial nod of approval when you read through the low-key Christian ending, and the sigh and muttered "well, fine, if you munchkins insist" for the crazy high-powered entirely non-Christian one.

[TheFlatline]

You could almost hear the editorial nod of approval when you read through the low-key Christian ending, and the sigh and muttered "well, fine, if you munchkins insist" for the crazy high-powered entirely non-Christian one.

Yeah... subtle... You mean the part in the book where they say that Wormwood (the God ending, as it were) is the "official" ending to the setting, most thematic with Vampire, but the others are all able to be used?

However, I'm going to say that even Wormwood isn't necessarily a "Christian" theme. It's Old Testament. The story of Caine and Abel is Old Testament, and has nothing to do with the Gospels talking about Jesus. The Christian God is patient, rewarding, loving, and forgiving. The Old Testament God rains fucking fire and brimstone down on you because your neighbor was secretly a dick.

A lot of modern self-proclaimed Christians don't give a fuck about the teachings of Jesus and instead stroke a metaphysical boner over Leviticus and the Old Testament wrath of God shit. Which is what oWoD was based in. I mean shit, you're some schmo who happens to be used as a foodbag and turned into a vampire, probably against your will, and suddenly God has cursed you forever. For what? Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's totally Old Testament.

[souran]

Are you really saying that there is identity between something that has more than 20 different options with new options being produced all the time in splat books, expansions, and even packaged adventures; and something which has exactly seven different possibilities and which is never expanded upon even after over a hundred books have been brought to print?

You mean a system where every virtue/vice is already defined with multiple names in the core rulebook. (See world of darkness core rulebook pages 100-105.)

Is your problem with the vice/virtue system itself or with the concepts they chose to include as vices and virtues?

If the system was called character Main trait/ Main flaw and WORKED THE SAME would you be less pissed?

The vices are negative character traits but in WOD you get a BENEFIT from playing to them. It is very hard to see how a system that rewards vice is trying to play to the "christian" interpretation of those vices.

Also, which vices/virtues are inappropriate for the Roman Centurion and the Chinese Bureaucrat? What vices/virtues need to be added to make the game less offensive or christian centric.

[K]

Is your problem with the vice/virtue system itself or with the concepts they chose to include as vices and virtues?

It's fun to see that you can't be bothered to read the thread.

If you had a longer list of available virtues, that included crap like Ren and Liberality, it probably could have gone over well. But I have lost count of how many Vampire fanboys/fangirls I have had ranting at me about how they didn't want/believe in Christian virtues and vices and were deeply offended that they were being asked to select one for their character.

That explain it for you?

[Orion]

The Old Testament is Christian. If it weren't Christian, it would be the Torah. Seriously, in Vampire you are someone who has been cursed by god because your very state of being is offensive to Him. There's nothing you can do or not do to escape the fact immorality pervades every available action or life choice.

That's already how being a *human* is, according to many Christians. That's not a Jewish idea.

[Prak]

The old testament is the Torah.

[K]

I don't even understand how WoD vampirism is even considered a curse. Vast powers and immortality in exchange for a restricted diet and a need to stay indoors during the day is hardly a bad deal. Considering that most of the world needs to stay on a restricted diet and needs to stay indoors during the night, it means the only "curse" is that you need to stay indoors for a different part of the day than other people do (though nothing stops you from spending more time indoors if you want to be with other people).

[Koumei]

The ST for our Mage game flat-out said "I prefer the nature/demeanour system of old, don't feel constrained by just the Christian stuff they're listing. Run it past me if you think it's more relevant."

And I think nearly everyone had a better idea for one, the other, or both. Which suggests the Christian list is less than useful. Even for them to go by.

(Mine became Vice: Bitterness/self-blame and Virtue: Innocence)

[TheFlatline]

The Old Testament is Christian. If it weren't Christian, it would be the Torah. Seriously, in Vampire you are someone who has been cursed by god because your very state of being is offensive to Him. There's nothing you can do or not do to escape the fact immorality pervades every available action or life choice.

That's already how being a *human* is, according to many Christians. That's not a Jewish idea.

Judaism disagrees. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. You know: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

In Jewish they are called different titles. But it's the same thing.

I mean, you *do* know Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi right?

Check it out:

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

[TheFlatline]

I don't even understand how WoD vampirism is even considered a curse. Vast powers and immortality in exchange for a restricted diet and a need to stay indoors during the day is hardly a bad deal. Considering that most of the world needs to stay on a restricted diet and needs to stay indoors during the night, it means the only "curse" is that you need to stay indoors for a different part of the day that other people do (though nothing stops you from spending more time indoors if you want to be with other people).

I have two answers. One mythological from a setting standpoint and one practical.

The mythological standpoint is God cursed Cain to live forever and be apart from humanity. The "mark" he placed on Cain is supposedly three curses from three angels, being the stereotypical vampire weaknesses. Later he supposedly met Lilith, who taught him to use the power of the blood he had to drink and the power inherent in the curses to do all the neat supernatural tricks. So by the myth, all the cool shit you get isn't part of God's curse, in fact it's probably a large part of the hubris that perpetuates vampirism.

From a practical, game mechanic standpoint, the Beast is a very real drawback. Giving into the predatory nature of a vampire eradicates the vampire's personality and pretty much ensures that someone sooner or later is going to hunt your ass down and kill you off. There are two ways to fight the beast: stick to your morality/convictions really, really strongly (which consists of either faking your own human empathy that you've lost or adhering to a totally alien set of beliefs), and feeding yourself a lot. Feeding yourself keeps the Beast from going batshit as easily, but it also runs the risk of you eroding your morality, which makes the Beast stronger.

So from a practical standpoint, sooner or later, and it may take centuries or weeks, you're going to lose your personality and become a mindless monster that will be put down. Which sucks.

[Orion]

Sorry, I meant to say, "if it weren't christian it would be the *tanakh*".

Yes, the Christian bible includes the Pentateuch. But lets get real here. The Christian Old Testament has a different set of books than the Jewish bible (tanakh). The shared books are in a different order. They're translated differently. And, of course, they're interpreted differently.

"Old Testament" religion is not necessarily the same as "Jewish religion." A lot of what goes in Vampire is Old Testament, very little of it is Jewish.

[FatR]

Besides what TheFlatline said, you just got hooked up on heroine forever. You will violently murder random people if you ever suffer withdrawal and someone is around. You also got a horrible temper. You also became prone to lighting up like firecracker from something that is extemely easily to encounter in everyday life. The criminal syndicate/ancient conspiracy that did this to you is fairly likely to murder you, if you let your newfound addiction or temper get out of control, or if you fail to leave your old life behind completely. Worse than that, it is crewed by people just as immortal as you are, so the only way to get any real power within it, barring lucky chances, and not be a lowly footsoldier/errand boy anymore, is to plot and murder your way up. Everyone knows that, so your superiors (who are way more magically powerful by the virtue of long life and inherent advantages you can't duplicate without eating souls) are inherently paranoid and tyrannical towards you. Depending on location and which ancient conspiracy got you, it is very possible, that your actual average life expectancy just went way down.