Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Koumei]

At the risk of sounding like a dunce, my experience with rogues on both sides of the screen is that they generally come across as inferior, frequently lower than the Fighter.

Firstly, they can make good use of UMD, which is certainly nice. Depending how far you want to take it, you could make them good at the right spells at the right moments, effectively casters, or ACTUALLY casters.

Sneak Attack can be very good. Rapidshot and TWF lets you throw heaps of acid flasks for heaps of touch attacks for Sneak-Attack (note: they still need to actually qualify for Sneak Attack, which is easy to do, making these attacks flat-footed touch attacks). At first level you throw two flasks with +1d6 Sneak Attack and even the flasks on their own are acceptable damage (it's first level, srs). Very soon it increases from there. By level 20 where IT ALWAYS MATTERS HERE for builds, you probably have 10 or so flasks with +12d6 Sneak Attack each (optional +20 from another feat at this point but you shouldn't need it).

Those special abilities at 10th and so on can be pretty damn handy, even without pointing out that "Bonus Feat" means any bonus feat ever, regardless of requirements. So "Perfect Two Weapon Fighting", for instance, or "Gape of the Serpent" (so you can swallow halflings).

Having seen exactly one person play a warlock I can't get why they are so low on the chart (with the monk). They even share the ability to UMD... which I'm guessing is the big 'winner' for the Rogue?

I wouldn't put them at Monk (Useless) level, but they're not very good. They get a few abilities that don't really do much, and it's hard to pump those abilities up with other sources or synergise them to be amazing, and the BIGGEST TJEESE build (singular) for it is basically just "pull out every trick you can think of ever in order to do a whole bunch of melee damage and other people are embarrassed for you". Or snagging a familiar, playing as Dvati, getting the "Share spells from up to a mile away" feat and then using UMD on scrolls to turn into fifteen dragons.

[Xur]

Ok, so this is my latest YouTube discovery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmb375ea ... age#t=222s

Now it all makes sense... because if it would be unbalanced, PF wouldn't have used it!

[Slade]

I sometimes like Tetsuo's videos, but he is a Pathfinder fan. So his bias might be showing.
Warforged get additional penalties (normally with a feat they have racial ASF).

And pun-pun breaks no rules to achieve the theoretical idea. Serpant Kingdom as written has a creature that does it.
Where do people get the idea that Pun-pun = breaking rules to achieve it?

[sabs]

The problem with Pun-Pun is not that he breaks rules.
The problem with Pun Pun is that he's completely fucking legit, he just breaks the game world.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Where do people get the idea that Pun-pun = breaking rules to achieve it?

As far as I'm aware, it doesn't involve actual rule-breaking so much as an extraordinarily generous reading of the Manipulate Form ability.

Pun Pun for example, can't actually do any of that shit. The entire loop revolves around convincing your DM that the line "or other abilities" can be used to give out literal god-like power when the example abilities are things like "sticky hands: +2 to climb!" While the absence of explicit limits does leave open the possibility of the DM allowing infinite power, this is a very low Veracity bug since in most actual games you're just going to end up with a prehensile tail and not the destruction of the moon.

[Roy]

Several people say as much.

You know... I'm one of those people and I forget that people are on both boards like me and Robby.
I also was unaware that Jaronk did that as an M.O., but it does explain a lot. LOL desmondu warbats.

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.

-Username17

That and:

The main difference between Tier 1/2 and Tier 3 is access to TO material.
Tier 3 is a clusterfuck, really, as it contains classes that both contain practical power not all that distant from say, a Sorcerer, and classes like the Warblade that in no way compare to this.

Now I reference Tiers often, mostly because it's a snarky way of mocking weak characters, and I'm a snarky dick but that doesn't make them good. It just makes them first. In other words, it's the AOL of the CO world.

And he wanks to Factorums way too much, mostly because he pretends skills are worth something.

Bottom line, Factotums are better than Rogues because if you get mad and throw a hissy fit whenever Rogues use the same things as Factotums better than them, and declare that they shouldn't be allowed to use them, the Factotum is still worse, but you get to pretend he's better by denying any tests.

Likely he didn't consider the ramifications of allowing that stuff. He made a mistake, but I agree he shouldn't throw a hissy fit.

He should have just agreed that allowing warbeast/etc was silly and you two should ignore those.

Nah, he knows better. I even specifically warned him once that if he brings the fucked up mount rules into it I will pwn his ass. He immediately follows by doing exactly this. I smite him with a Magebred Warbeast T-Rex, at level 5, because it's only like 2k or some bullshit low number.

...Actually, ya know what? I just remembered something.

I think I might have actually had Jaron in my party once, without knowing it.

Here's how it went:

Everyone makes level 15 characters. I'm an Artificer, with a beatstick cohort. Someone else is a Druid. Someone else is a Crusader. Someone else is one of those Ultimate classes that basically treats everything as if it has AC 10, ignores movement impeding effects, etc. This guy is a Marrulurk sneaky fuck of some kind. He wants a Magebred Warbeast Dire Elephant who somehow has like 280 HP or some bullshit. Everyone says "lol, no".

So the game starts, and people are talking and roleplaying and such. He's not there yet.

Some demons suddenly attack. The rest of the party starts fighting the demons. He decides it would be a better idea to sneak around, and try to steal shit. He then whines and flails when:

The party notices him acting suspiciously.
The party doesn't fucking trust him.
The party doesn't believe he is there to help.

He quickly ragequits. The game continues on for years happily without him.

The point is that JaronK will keep shifting goalposts until the distorted problem space forces him to be right.

This.

[Roy]

Also, regarding Tiers in general. As much as Jaron is smiteworthy, and as much as I am happy to see him beaten down by his superiors (everyone), pointing out differences in player skill is not a valid argument. After all, Tier systems have always assumed equal skill. This is why a noob with Metaknight can lose to an expert player with a mid, or even low tier character in Brawl. The purpose of Tier systems is to determine expected performance assuming equal skill, and while his system fails in many ways, that is actually not one of them.

So a Wizard with 6 Con, who thinks Fireball is the best thing ever and never casts anything else losing to a Fighter who has charging feats, Steadfast to reduce MAD, etc doesn't prove or disprove anything. About Tiers or anything else. A remotely competent Wizard still wtfpwning said Fighter does prove the Wizard class is remarkably better, but that's about it.

[RobbyPants]

...Actually, ya know what? I just remembered something.

I think I might have actually had Jaron in my party once, without knowing it.

Was that a RL game or online?

[fectin]

What does TO stand for? (meaning is obvious, acronym is not).

[Pendulass]

It stands for theoretical optimization.

[Roy]

...Actually, ya know what? I just remembered something.

I think I might have actually had Jaron in my party once, without knowing it.

Was that a RL game or online?

Online.

An example of TO is Pun-Pun. They aren't all this crazy, but they do go well beyond the bounds of practical optimization.

[Ferret]

(minor sidenote: Beguilers are Wizard balance point? Esplain?)

[K]

...Actually, ya know what? I just remembered something.

I think I might have actually had Jaron in my party once, without knowing it.

Was that a RL game or online?

Online.

An example of TO is Pun-Pun. They aren't all this crazy, but they do go well beyond the bounds of practical optimization.

Pun Pun is basically the same as saying "and if the DM handed me all these artifacts, I'd be invincible!" I mean, when the whole build is based on the DM giving you stuff and interpreting rules wildly in your favor, it's not even RAW.

It's just DM fiat.

[angelfromanotherpin]

But having gone through the Beguiler's spell list a little more carefully, I just have to say: Holy Crap! This is the best class that D&D has ever printed. Ever. You have as many spells per day as a Sorcerer, and you have a decent skill list and Trap Finding. And then instead of knowing just 2 spells at first level, you have every single good spell in the PHB except grease. This continues through your entire career. Every level it heaps new awesome spells on you. You don't really get class features at all until 20th level, but until then you're ompletely awesome.

Your first level spells include: charm person, color spray, sleep, silent image

That's literally missing only 1 spell off the grand slam list of 1st level attack spells.You also get the major utility divination spells from each level: coprehend languages for 1st, moving on to Clairvoyance and Arcane Sight. WTF?!

I seriously may not play any class again. It requires no explanation, no crazy builds, no special combos. You simply get more than half the spells in the PHB that are any good, and you can cast them all spontaneously. I can seriously list everything you don't get from every level.

For your fifth level spells, for example, oyu don't get:

Cloud Kill
Lesser Planar Binding
Fabricate
Teleport
Wall of Stone

Ouch. Those are five really nice spells that you don't get. I guess you'll have to either use your completely unnecessary feats to get those spells anyway or just struggle on with only Break Enchantment, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Dominate Person, and Sending whenever you feel like.

The only real question is: Is playing a Beguiler so good that it's cheating?

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

(minor sidenote: Beguilers are Wizard balance point? Esplain?)

I'm not a strong beguiler builder, but I think it has to do with them getting a lot of good wizard win spells, more spells per day, spontaneous access, and a better class chassis.

A lot of the stuff a wizard can do that a beguiler can't isn't the type of stuff that most MCs will allow, so it's a moot point.

That said, I do personally feel wizards are better in general, but a well played beguiler is pretty good too.


Edit: I totally missed that post above me.

[Spike]

Firstly, they can make good use of UMD, which is certainly nice. Depending how far you want to take it, you could make them good at the right spells at the right moments, effectively casters, or ACTUALLY casters.

Sneak Attack can be very good.
I wouldn't put them at Monk (Useless) level, but they're not very good. They get a few abilities that don't really do much, and it's hard to pump those abilities up with other sources or synergise them to be amazing, and the BIGGEST TJEESE build (singular) for it is basically just "pull out every trick you can think of ever in order to do a whole bunch of melee damage and other people are embarrassed for you". Or snagging a familiar, playing as Dvati, getting the "Share spells from up to a mile away" feat and then using UMD on scrolls to turn into fifteen dragons.

Thanks, though I did point out that Warlocks also have UMD, and by that light can function as full casters as well as rogues can.


Next question: Anyone have links to these uber Wizard builds? I'm rather curious since I've never seen this sort of thing actually done. I've always known Spellcasters were powerful, but that was mostly from seeing them more or less one-shot entire fights and mobs with blaster spells, and circumvent the 'game' with various utility spells.

Personally, the only spell caster I ever played at high levels was a summoning cleric and that game ended at 16.

[Ferret]

Warlocks are also the 2nd best crafters, after Artificers. Their level 12 ability lets them emulate any spell for the purposes of crafting an item. So a dip into Chameleon for floating feats is fucking stupdendous for a warlock. On active days, you use it for the Invocation of the Moment. On downtime days, you use it to craft anything, ever.

It's a great autopilot class, and very survivable.

[Spike]

I just commented because the D&Dwiki linked earlier has them listed under Monks... and the one in the game I'm hosting now is seriously powerful, if a bit inflexible.

[Kaelik]

Next question: Anyone have links to these uber Wizard builds? I'm rather curious since I've never seen this sort of thing actually done. I've always known Spellcasters were powerful, but that was mostly from seeing them more or less one-shot entire fights and mobs with blaster spells, and circumvent the 'game' with various utility spells.

Personally, the only spell caster I ever played at high levels was a summoning cleric and that game ended at 16.

There are different types of absurdly broken Wizards.

There are "I'm going to Planar Bind a CR 12 Monster at level 11 and give it the task of 'fight on my side to the best of your ability for the next two days' also I get all my own actions" and there cousins "Skeleton Ettin" and "Dominated, who the fuck cares army"

Then there's various PrC based stupid shit, for example, Nalthain, the generic Incantatrix who has a buff list of active spells that goes like this:

Hoard Gullet
Create Magic Tattoo +1 CL version
Create Magic Tattoo +2 competence to Attack
Heart of Air
Heart of Water
Greater Magic Weapon (on Dagger)
Heart of Earth
Dragonsight
Heart of Fire
Greater Anticipate Teleport
Cloak of the the Sun
Magic Aura to disguise Greater Anticipate Teleport Aura, Kiss of Draconic Defiance Aura, and Detect Scyring
Superior Resistance
Detect Scrying
Mindblank
Elemental Body Fire
Elemental Body Water
Elemental Body Earth
Elemental Body Air

Active Spells Persisted using Metamagic Effect, CL 23, 27 against dispels Duration of 24 hours:
Ray Deflection
Greater Blink
Greater Heroism
True Seeing
As the Frost
Energy Immunity Acid
Energy Immunity Sonic
Fiend Form into a Dretch
Kiss of Draconic Defiance
Ironguard
Ghostform
Superior Invisibility
Veil of Undeath
Foresight
Shapechange
Greater Dimensional Jumper

and lasts all day for all of them, and two days for about a third. Also absurd metamagic stacking on whatever you want, Fleshshiver, Orb of Fire, Enervation, ect.

Then you have more traditional "Absurdly broken, but in ways that are at least theoretically beatable by equal CR challenges" of the well prepared Wizard casting from a good list variety.

[Xur]

Kaelik's last one is especially important, because as long as you are having fun playing it... you know the drill.

Regarding the beguiler, I always sort of disregarded it because there was plenty of other stuff I wanted to consume, but this talking made me change my mind

[Roy]

The main problem with Tier 3 and lower classes is the lack of IP proofing techniques. If you don't know what that is, Google it. Third link, and the only one that has anything to do with D&D.

For example:

Only Bards can cast Greater/Superior Resistance.
As far as I know, you flat out can't get Conviction, Recitation, GMW, and Magic Vestment. Among others. And don't get me started on the immunities. Those are important regardless of class, as for example +1 Defending armor spikes and +1 Spellstrike Animated shield spikes are standard equipment for any serious character. With a Chained GMW that's a nice touch AC and saves bonus to the whole party for the reasonable cost of under 17k for both per person, not to mention beatsticks don't lose out on to hit, damage, or both. Magic Vestment is more for comboing with Ghost Ward, for touch AC as your normal AC will suck regardless. Your saves, of course will be terrible without those things. And we all know how well that will work out for you.

Now, Beguilers are still decent enough. But by itself? Not so good. Only with other not best classes? Not so good, due to the lack of access to those abilities.

[RelentlessImp]

Regarding Beguiler...

Between 1/3rd and 1/2 its spell list are [mind-affecting] spells. Sure, that immunity's hard to come by early on, but do you really want to play a class that has that many spells negated by an easy to acquire immunity later on?

[K]

Regarding Beguiler...

Between 1/3rd and 1/2 its spell list are [mind-affecting] spells. Sure, that immunity's hard to come by early on, but do you really want to play a class that has that many spells negated by an easy to acquire immunity later on?

Why not? You can cast all the spells of a level, so at worse you still have 2/3rds of your spell list that can be used. A Wizard or Sorcerer would love to claim that

[RelentlessImp]

Regarding Beguiler...

Between 1/3rd and 1/2 its spell list are [mind-affecting] spells. Sure, that immunity's hard to come by early on, but do you really want to play a class that has that many spells negated by an easy to acquire immunity later on?

Why not? You can cast all the spells of a level, so at worse you still have 2/3rds of your spell list that can be used. A Wizard or Sorcerer would love to claim that

This is true, but most of its save-or-loses are [mind-affecting]. Still, Beguiler makes an excellent base for Shadowcraft Mage, which alleviates most of its spell access problems. (Open for Versatile Spellcaster early entry, access to two Conj subschools and Evocation freely...)

[hogarth]

Regarding Beguiler...

Between 1/3rd and 1/2 its spell list are [mind-affecting] spells. Sure, that immunity's hard to come by early on, but do you really want to play a class that has that many spells negated by an easy to acquire immunity later on?

Why not? You can cast all the spells of a level, so at worse you still have 2/3rds of your spell list that can be used. A Wizard or Sorcerer would love to claim that

Not really 2/3 of a spell list; more like one or two decent spells and a lot of filler.

I'm playing a level 5 beguiler, and I find myself casting Glitterdust over and over and over again, with the occasional Color Spray or Invisibility thrown in for variety. Against mindless enemies, Color Spray is out. It's not really that exciting.