What the hell is wrong with White Wolf's fluff writers?

[sabs]

That, and Age onset Torpor, and hiding from the Damn Sabbat.

[FatR]

But how is it a curse?

Well, the last time I checked both addiction factor and murdering random schmuks for a fix is not something that sane people want in their lives. Assaulting people and hurting them to maintain your lifestyle is also not considered a good way to spend your time nowadays, never mind that you'll risk degeneration (and to feed in other way you either need to fight your addiction and restricting yourself to drinking shitty-tasting animal blood, or to be integrated in the vampire society, so that you won't get ganked when your harem of blood dolls or whatever - oh wait, this is also not really moral and will likely cause you to degrade - draws their attention).

By the RAW, they should have almost no chance of flipping out almost all the time.

1-3% add up really fast when you roll every time anyone taunts or harasses you, or whenever you see a source of open fire. Just GMs tend to not bother.

Heck, you can just spend a Willpower whenever there is a chance you might flip out. As long as you aren't trying to be a dark superhero who gets shot at every day, you should have more than enough for the once-a-year time that you need it.

Within this year alone I can remember at least two cases when I, should I have been a vampire, would have been forced to roll for frenzy. Maybe four, depending on how liberally my GM is willing to interpret physical provocation. A couple more, if being really, really fucking annoyed with people (in RL, not on Internet) counts, and individual sources of aggravation like this are encouraged to count by preface to the frenzy rules. Of course, I cannot make the same count for red fear, because, as I'm not a vampire, I don't pay attention to people that smoke on the streets, or something. And I'm pretty much a homebird. So, an obvious hyperbole is really obvious.

But how is it a curse? I mean, you can just leave. Curse over.

Well, assuming you can leave... that's a pretty fat assumption by itself, you know. You cannot use any normal mode of transportation without blowing up, there is a very strong possibility that you don't have any legal, non-degeneration inducing ways of earning money without blowing up, and you likely cannot even interact with either your social circle or authorities enough to not be considered legally dead, without giving away your condition or/and blowing up. So, moving away is not actually an easy task for those who haven't established their unlife anyway. And if you did, you presumably kissed enough asses already, for the possibility to start all over again to be too alluring.

I mean, you can assume that there is some Auspex 6+ vampire who tracks down all the new vampires who don't show up to clan meetings, but the game doesn't assume that.

Or there is some Presence 4+ vampire who is tasked with keeping dumb-ass neonates in line. And the game does assume that. Moreover, there is an overwhelming possibility that either your sire has some sort of obsession with you, or you were emraced to serve as a goon. In either cases quitting won't be received well. Oh, and if you fail to get away the first time, they most likely will fuck with your mind to preclude repeated offenses.

Well, and while finding random newcomers in a city is not so utterly easy, the game strongly assumes that the resident vamps have contacts and influence in place to find those of them who aren't well-prepared spies within weeks or months. And then they will dust you for intruding and possibly being a spy. Unless you hook up with a bad enough bunch of anarchs or something, but anarchs do not really have high life expectancy as well.

All in all, its a pretty good deal.

Well, of course, if you arbitrarily ignore every bad aspect, it's a pretty good deal.

[TheFlatline]

By the RAW, they should have almost no chance of flipping out almost all the time. It really is only the ones who are being attacked with flame-throwers who might have a chance to run away.

Well... Degeneration is a real issue.

Every time you feed, you're supposed to make self-control rolls. Which can never exceed 5 dice (even for elders), and is limited by how many blood points you have left in your blood pool. I forgot what the difficulty is, but I think it's six if memory serves. If you fail, you more or less drink your victim dry.

So. Assuming that you aren't burning blood to use nifty tricks, you're blowing 7 blood a week. I remember vaguely that 3 points is the most you can really take from a person without risking real injury (since draining a point of blood inflicts a level of lethal), which means on average you're draining 2-3 victims a week. That's 150 rolls a year. Forever.

Statistically, you're going to fail those rolls sooner or later and catch a degeneration roll, which sooner or later you're going to fail. Pure and simple. Hell, at humanity higher than 7, even *feeding* off of a person is a degeneration roll since you're injuring them willfully.

If you're actively using blood to fuel your nifty abilities, you're feeding nightly or multiple times a night. Aside from the increased risk of getting caught, you're now rolling 350 times a year for as long as you're active. With a TN of 6 and a full 5 dice, you have roughly a 97% chance of success. Which means statistically, on the slim side you're looking at 4 or 5 failed self control rolls which result in degeneration rolls, and on the high side around 9 or 10. Just from feeding. And each failed self-control roll is a corpse you have to deal with.

Now if you have self-control of 3 (which is average for a starting character), the numbers work out to about 18 corpses a year minimum, and around 40 per year if you're feeding nightly.

Of course, once you hit humanity 4 or 3, this stops being an issue, but by then you're a pretty bestial fucker.

Also, unless you're an elder by generation, you'll never see protean 6. You'll also never see protean without getting taught (and possibly blood bound) from a Gangrel or you're a Caitiff/Gangrel. Even if you get taught out of clan protean, 6 means you have to have someone with protean 7 teach you, which is a 6th generation vampire (probably a Gangrel). The only way to reach 7th generation (which gives you level 6 disciplines) is to diablerize, which flat out costs you humanity points each time you literally consume another vampire's soul, which is one of the few crimes that warrants an immediate death penalty among vampires.

Otherwise, you're going to spend a lot of your spare time drinking up animals.

Oh, and rules as written, blood from blood banks isn't very nourishing.

[angelfromanotherpin]

TheFlatline, why are you even feeding on humans in the first place? Nobody cares if you flip out and guzzle down a dozen rats or chickens. If you keep your diet to animals nobody cares about in the first place, you will never produce human corpses from failed self-control rolls in feeding.

[K]

TheFlatline, why are you even feeding on humans in the first place? Nobody cares if you flip out and guzzle down a dozen rats or chickens. If you keep your diet to animals nobody cares about in the first place, you will never produce human corpses from failed self-control rolls in feeding.

Basically, yeh. Go to town on those rats.

Then spend Willpower for other forms of Frenzy. People who aren't getting shot at every day should have more than enough.

That being said, you really can drive cars at night or even get night jobs. This whole "but you can't do anything without exploding!" nonsense is just nonsense because the whole game is predicated on the assumption that it's possible to live a mostly normal life at night and to do so without any help from other vampires.

As for the "every territory has a guy with Presence 4 who is tasked with keeping neonates in line", that was never spelled out in my manual. On top of that, it was never spelled out that they were supposed to screw with you other than preventing Masquerade violations or keep you chained to any territory. That's just nonsensical.

I mean, some people might have sires who wanted them as lovers and mooks, but at the end of the day who in the court is really making sure you punch a time-card or bring treats to your sire? Every book I've read has neonates being full members of vampire society who can do whatever they want as long as they don't break the rules. I mean, if they didn't count then everyone would just start with an auto-Blood Bond.

The entire "but animal blood tastes bad!" argument is equally foolish. Taste is never going to be a deciding factor in life or death situations to any but the most selfish people.

On a personal note, if this conversation is causing anyone to spend Willpower to avoid Frenzy, I suggest they seek out a mental health professional for treatment.

[K]

Also, unless you're an elder by generation, you'll never see protean 6. You'll also never see protean without getting taught (and possibly blood bound) from a Gangrel or you're a Caitiff/Gangrel. Even if you get taught out of clan protean, 6 means you have to have someone with protean 7 teach you, which is a 6th generation vampire (probably a Gangrel). The only way to reach 7th generation (which gives you level 6 disciplines) is to diablerize, which flat out costs you humanity points each time you literally consume another vampire's soul, which is one of the few crimes that warrants an immediate death penalty among vampires.

Like I said, there are lots of ways to get Blood Points. By the time you get to an age where you can't feed from animal blood, you should have at least one of those sorted out.

[Orion]

Actually taste can be a pretty big deal. There are a number of foods I will literally starve myself into unconsciousness rather than eat. Now, this is largely because I'm mentally ill, but then again I feel like there are a number of americans who would have serious trouble if they had to live on insects or some crap.

And re: mental illness; who's to say vampires aren't? I've never read a WoD book, but I always got the impression that just being a vampire is supposed to be a mental disorder. You're supposed to have compulsions and anxieties. If you don't know anyone with a mental illness you might find it hard to empathize, but trust me, it's quite possible to live a "cursed" life even if it looks good from the outside.

I have no trouble believing that vampires find animal blood so disgusting that they can't bring themselves to eat it until they are on the brink of madness, meaning that your actual choice is between draining humans or a perpetual, anorexic cycle of starvation and binging.

[K]

Actually taste can be a pretty big deal. There are a number of foods I will literally starve myself into unconsciousness rather than eat. Now, this is largely because I'm mentally ill, but then again I feel like there are a number of americans who would have serious trouble if they had to live on insects or some crap.

And re: mental illness; who's to say vampires aren't? I've never read a WoD book, but I always got the impression that just being a vampire is supposed to be a mental disorder. You're supposed to have compulsions and anxieties. If you don't know anyone with a mental illness you might find it hard to empathize, but trust me, it's quite possible to live a "cursed" life even if it looks good from the outside.

I have no trouble believing that vampires find animal blood so disgusting that they can't bring themselves to eat it until they are on the brink of madness, meaning that your actual choice is between draining humans or a perpetual, anorexic cycle of starvation and binging.

I could see that as a vampire trope, but the rules don't say that.

I mean, there is a Derangement system and you can free yourself from them by spending Willpower. This means that vampires are, in many ways, more mentally stable than normal people.

I mean, if the rules said "you can't feed on animal blood unless you are in a hunger frenzy or you spend Willpower", then that would be an issue. As it stands, animal blood is what all the cool kids with Humanity eat.

[Prak]

There are also clubs full of attractive young people who totally get off on having their blood drank, hobos who no one, other than maybe ratkin and bone gnawers, gives a shit about, criminals, that are somewhat expected to get in fights or killed, whether on the streets or in prison, and entire hidden societies with extra potent blood that people like police don't know about.

If you're dead set against human blood, you don't even need chickens or rats, you go to a good butcher and get pig or cow blood

[Ancient History]

I brought this up with Frank at one point, but there are a boatload of different powers that basically amount to "Doesn't need to drink blood" - and that's before you get to some of the really obscure shit. Necromancers get to drink the blood of corpses (or, in nWoD, eat their bone marrow) and drain the spiritual juice of ghosts to survive and fuel themselves. There are magical rituals for making fake vampire blood that works just as well, and for turning X blood points into X + Y synthetic blood points. There is a power - and I love this - where you get a portion of the blood points that some bastard spills on a particular square of ground.

[Orion]

Hmm. If I were a designer, I would say that vampirism just plain gave you major depression. Problem solved.

[Prak]

Hmm. If I were a designer, I would say that vampirism just plain gave you major depression. Problem solved.

That's a terrible idea and you should feel bad. Characters would basically sit around and do nothing, and you wouldn't have a game.

[Ganbare Gincun]

There are also clubs full of attractive young people who totally get off on having their blood drank, hobos who no one, other than maybe ratkin and bone gnawers, gives a shit about, criminals, that are somewhat expected to get in fights or killed, whether on the streets or in prison, and entire hidden societies with extra potent blood that people like police don't know about.

Blood is *everywhere* in the oWoD. If it wasn't, the Camarilla would step up Tamanous-style and ensure that all of their loyal subjects were well-fed. And the disloyal ones... well, they would have to either murder the poor or drink from animals.

[Prak]

That's my point. Hell, you could open up a fucking daycare, and so long as you can make kids forget, there's some blood for ya!

[Koumei]

Hmm. If I were a designer, I would say that vampirism just plain gave you major depression. Problem solved.

Aside from that being the worst idea since Mr. and Mrs. Hitler decided "We don't need a condom, rhythm method works!", what exact problem does this solve?

The bit where it's not a curse?
The bit where you can just pack up and leave if the area is shit?
The bit where you have to/don't have to drink the blood of humans?
The bit where you can spend Willpower to be more sane?

No really, I'm not sure what problem you're talking about.

[Maxus]

Well obviously you'd want a vast pool to draw from, to minimize the damage to an individual enough it can be put down to temporary weakness/tiredness.

Actually drinking one person dry and leaving the body where it can be found is probably a Masquerade breach, because some jackass out there is going to go 'Vampires!' and start digging into the case and that story does not go well for Team Vampire. Just draining someone dry is probably heavily frowned upon anyway, because you just killed someone.

Hell, vampires probably try not to kill humans if they can help it anyway. Most homicide or murder investigations can be fixed/covered up/made to go away, but eventually there will be one that can't be and then they have to brute force it.

To date, all of these determined investigators have either been disappeared, or persuaded to relent. Possibly by executing the one who committed the breach or by threats of harm against their family or maybe being introduced to the Supernatural society at large. But your local vampire community leader is acutely aware that each time that happens, it's dodging a bullet. You try not to make a habit of it because you can't count on being able to dodge the next one.

[Koumei]

And thus, you go to a Twilight club twice a week and fill up - and still not all of them get a turn to be part of your buffet every time.

[Prak]

And thus, you go to a Twilight club twice a week and fill up - and still not all of them get a turn to be part of your buffet every time.

Finally, a use for Twilight fans. At least until one of them points out that you're not supposed to have fangs.

[Maxus]

Well, it encourages vampires to have an active social life and try to meet humans and stuff. Probably a lot of casual sex is used as a vehicle to put the bite on someone and mind-blank them so they just remember they had a good time. And their neck hurts.

[K]

I don't know why people are fixated on human blood. You don't need to drink it, you can lose sanity if you frenzy and kill someone, and hunters will come after you.

Drink animal blood, and literally all the social problems with being a vampire go away.

It's even more convenient considering that you don't have to spend time cultivating social relationships based entirely on feeding. In the hour it takes to drive down to the club and find and convince a Twilight fan to let you take a nip, you could have just spent twenty minutes to go to the pet store and filled up without risking a hunter set-up, Humanity loss, or cover charges and drink money.

Heck, the fact that the club is dead on Wedsday and you won't even find someone to bite is a great reason to stick to an animal diet. It is at least consistent.

[Gods_Trick]

Hmm. If I were a designer, I would say that vampirism just plain gave you major depression. Problem solved.

That's a terrible idea and you should feel bad. Characters would basically sit around and do nothing, and you wouldn't have a game.

I see what you did there.

[TheFlatline]

I don't know why people are fixated on human blood. You don't need to drink it, you can lose sanity if you frenzy and kill someone, and hunters will come after you.

Shit you don't need to eat meat to survive either, yet most of us dearly love a steak.

Feeding on animals is supposed to be akin to basically eating reconstituted ass-flavored tofu paste for the rest of your life. Yeah, it'll sustain you, but it tastes like shit to your (now) refined palate, while feeding from a human is supposed to be like the best heroin of your life, mixed with the only way you're going to feel anything even approaching an orgasm again. Ever.

That, and if the other licks catch you sucking on rats, they're going to torture you... because they can.

And if you're Ventrue, you're supposed to have such refined tastes that you gain so nourishment from it.

Not to mention that drinking a few gallons of animal blood takes time, is inconvenient, and probably leaves you feeling bloated.

And finally, the number one reason only pussy vampires solely drink animals:

It's how the suckheads in Twilight feed, so that you can still masturbate to them without thinking about that getting killed thing.

[Vnonymous]

Being a vampire is something fucking awesome in pretty much every setting. The curses of vampirism, while inconvenient, are almost never as bad as the benefits are good. Twilight is an exceptional case though, where the human race would be better if we were all vampires.

[talozin]

Actually drinking one person dry and leaving the body where it can be found is probably a Masquerade breach, because some jackass out there is going to go 'Vampires!' and start digging into the case and that story does not go well for Team Vampire. Just draining someone dry is probably heavily frowned upon anyway, because you just killed someone.

Hell, vampires probably try not to kill humans if they can help it anyway. Most homicide or murder investigations can be fixed/covered up/made to go away, but eventually there will be one that can't be and then they have to brute force it.

Don't forget, too, that old Vampire was explicitly set in a World of Darkness. We (rightly) make fun of this a lot, but one of the things about it is that it's intentionally a much worse place to live for the average person. Literally "all of society's ills" -- ineffectual or corrupt government, corporate greed, gang violence, crime, drug abuse, cops on the take, venal and arrogant politicians -- are worse there than they are in the real world. And that's saying something.

If you insist on going out to the suburbs and draining housewives dry and leaving the corpses in their kitchens, yeah, you're eventually going to run into problems. But you're living (er ... unliving?) in a world where there are more socially negligible people, more drive-by shootings, more muggings gone awry, and less competent and motivated investigators. In the real world in which we actually exist, if you simply pick out a random homeless person you've never met before and murder him, you stand a decent chance of getting away with it.

In the World of Darkness, it's quite likely that unless you leave the body lying around in plain sight, the cops will just shrug and put up a missing persons notice and get back to the task of trying, unsuccessfully, to get a handle on the crime that the people who pay their salaries actually care about. They have less money, fewer officers, less interest in solving cases that don't directly relate to their next promotion, and more crime of every kind to solve -- the idea that there's going to be any sort of serious investigation if hobos go missing, or even are found dead with no obvious cause of death (the fang marks go away if you lick them), strikes me as unlikely.

[magnuskn]

I think the main reason why vampires and werewolves are supposed to be tormented by their drawbacks is so that emo goths can be emo. ^^

Well, I can see vampires seeing their unlife as a curse more than the werewolves. After all, you never get to see the sun, occasionally kill someone, even if you try your best not to and you are always being the pawn of someone more powerful than you.

Garou? Not so much. The curse is pretty silly and, well, you got anger management issues. On the upside, you literaly get to fight for mother nature and claw some evil mofos in the face, while being physically superior to about everyone. You are normally very well integrated into an emotional support group ( your pack and your tribe ).

And unless you are a lupus, there's no issue with dog-fucking either. <runs away laughing maniacally>