What the hell is wrong with White Wolf's fluff writers?

[fectin]

And unless you are a lupus, there's no issue with dog-fucking either. <runs away laughing maniacally>

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warrio ... renade.htm

Sounds like a dud.

[magnuskn]

And unless you are a lupus, there's no issue with dog-fucking either. <runs away laughing maniacally>

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warrio ... renade.htm

Sounds like a dud.

If I'd really like to throw a flame-grenade, I'd be a bit less obvious about it.

[sabs]

I never got why Garou was supposed to be Tragic. Other than, you're fighting a war that you're losing, because you're ancestors (and you) are arrogant fuckpricks who killed your allies in the war because they weren't wolves like you.

[magnuskn]

Well, I'll say that for me those would count as standard challenges for a roleplaying campaign, not unsurmountable obstacles that mean that "life sucks and then you die". But, hey, since it's the WoD, being cursed with awesome has to suck.

[tzor]

Actually drinking one person dry and leaving the body where it can be found is probably a Masquerade breach, ...

Well yes, and no. The first question is whether this is a frenzy induced drain? If yes, then it will probably be sloppy and violent. Those two strikes are going to get you right there. If it's not and the feeding was done without initial violence, you have a dead body with no visible signs whatsoever (one lick and those fang wounds go away ... like magic). The lack of internal bleeding and no internal blood might be something they spot in the autopsy but I'm sure someone has managed to ghoul the Corronor. In addition, the typical homeless joe on the street isn't going to get the expensive autopsy - death by natural causes. Even the mortician may never know because the corpse will probably be thrown into the crematorium without an embalming or a wake.

[CatharzGodfoot]

All it takes is one person to put two and two together. Remember that the WoD also has dedicated vampire hunters.

[tzor]

But what are they putting together? In 2005 you had 52 homeless people die in Chicago. In a "world of darkness" Chicago you might find ten times more homeless people dying on the streets. More importantly these Vampire Hunters already know vampires are out there; they want clues to where the vampire currently is. They are, in fact a significant minority in as much of a masquerade as the vampires themselves because if the vampires knew where they were, they would send attacks in masse, often indirect ones where they don't have to get involved. (That recent gang violence attack? Another Buffy just bit the big one.)

Vampire hunters in the WoD (at least in the original WoD before any vampire hunting splat books came out) had severe problems (just being human was a severe problem) but because WoD took out the viral nature of vampirism (and lycanthropy) it's not like every victim of a vampire is going to turn into a vampire and kill a dozen more victims ... vampires are no more and no less a "danger" than the average human gang.

[Prak]

I never got why Garou was supposed to be Tragic. Other than, you're fighting a war that you're losing, because you're ancestors (and you) are arrogant fuckpricks who killed your allies in the war because they weren't wolves like you.

Yeah, the tragedy is supposed to be facing inhuman threats as you lose your humanity and become one yourself. It's supposed to come from the fact that one of your most important combat stats, Rage, also makes you a terrifying mother fucker that, when high enough, people would actually sooner jump out a window than be in the same room as you, Loony Toons style. It's also supposed to come from the sheer hopelessness of fighting the war you can't win.

What actually happens is that a bunch of people relatively secure in their humanity or monsterdom who think it'd be awesome to be a wolf get together and curb stomp monsters and super soldiers from Team Evil.

[magnuskn]

What actually happens is that a bunch of people relatively secure in their humanity or monsterdom who think it'd be awesome to be a wolf get together and curb stomp monsters and super soldiers from Team Evil.

And that can be a fun time to spend the evening.

I will say, though, that the spiritual aspects and the pack interaction also make the whole game fun. IMO, the best way to play it is basically to ignore the personal emo horror aspects and focus on the evil done by the forces of the Wyrm ( and to a lesser extent, the Weaver ).

[CatharzGodfoot]

But what are they putting together? In 2005 you had 52 homeless people die in Chicago. In a "world of darkness" Chicago you might find ten times more homeless people dying on the streets. More importantly these Vampire Hunters already know vampires are out there; they want clues to where the vampire currently is. They are, in fact a significant minority in as much of a masquerade as the vampires themselves because if the vampires knew where they were, they would send attacks in masse, often indirect ones where they don't have to get involved. (That recent gang violence attack? Another Buffy just bit the big one.)

Vampire hunters in the WoD (at least in the original WoD before any vampire hunting splat books came out) had severe problems (just being human was a severe problem) but because WoD took out the viral nature of vampirism (and lycanthropy) it's not like every victim of a vampire is going to turn into a vampire and kill a dozen more victims ... vampires are no more and no less a "danger" than the average human gang.

Fair enough. I [think I] know more about the OWoD from computer games than anything else, which gives me a warped perspective.

[Prak]

What actually happens is that a bunch of people relatively secure in their humanity or monsterdom who think it'd be awesome to be a wolf get together and curb stomp monsters and super soldiers from Team Evil.

And that can be a fun time to spend the evening.

I will say, though, that the spiritual aspects and the pack interaction also make the whole game fun. IMO, the best way to play it is basically to ignore the personal emo horror aspects and focus on the evil done by the forces of the Wyrm ( and to a lesser extent, the Weaver ).

That's exactly how we played it. Though I do wish the GM had used pentex and fomori more.

[sabs]

I mean, the Sabbat have parties, where they starve a Garou, then release it in a downtown city and HUNT IT DOWN. And the Camarilla finds ways of covering that shit up.

I'm pretty sure you going all "frenzy" once a month isnt' really a big issue for Vampires. My problem is that.. given that I can potentially live for ever, as a neonate vampire my first round of business should be.. staying out of the way of anyone who can kill me. Which does not make for a good game.

[TheFlatline]

I never got why Garou was supposed to be Tragic. Other than, you're fighting a war that you're losing, because you're ancestors (and you) are arrogant fuckpricks who killed your allies in the war because they weren't wolves like you.

The main tragedy is that Nature (as in a personified avatar of nature) created you to protect herself, and your ancestors were so fucking arrogant that you killed off all your allies and very probably nature is going to die because the Garou were too fucking arrogant. And still are too fucking arrogant, because they just keep doing what they've always done, and are going down the tubes.

So it's not just "woe is me", it's "We fucked everything up... for everyone. Forever."

Generally though, Werewolf was an excuse to go curb-stomp 8-headed formori freaks and wyrm tainted shit and go down in an apocalyptic Armageddon. Angst was for the vampires.

And yes, it's always going to be awesome being a vampire because if it wasn't, nobody would want to roleplay the vampires. And with enough hubris, it's easy to see that you're not damned, you're awesome and you have a few minor drawbacks. That's kind of the point.

[sabs]

I ran a vampire game once, where the Vampire in question regretted having been turned into a vampire, and hated it. She was spending her unlife trying to find a way to undo it and die a good death, so she could return to the Karmic Wheel.

The cool part, was that the harder she strived to survive long enough to find a way to save her soul, the more inhuman monster she became. It was interesting, but it only worked because there was only 1 player, with a very specific background.

Most people when faced with the idea they can live forever, they just have to kill the occasional person will rationalize it for long enough to lose their humanity and not give a rats ass about other people.

[tzor]

My problem is that.. given that I can potentially live for ever, as a neonate vampire my first round of business should be.. staying out of the way of anyone who can kill me.

Actually the general response is "kissing the asses" of anyone who can kill you, specifically your sire. That's where it gets really interesting. oWoD VtM was very much a political game.

[Prak]

Ok, so here's a thought. Let's take a supernatural type from WoD and work around it.

Namely, he Possessed. I like the possessed, and with the fluff reworked a bit, it could work decently.

So, game design flow chart:

Possessed: the Superthings
In Possessed, the players are embodied spirits (or enspirited bodies, whatever) working together fighting monstrous creatures that Threaten the Tellurian and Umbra. It can handle Single-type groups, or groups that ostracize one or two types, but we'll here work on the assumption that the group is composed of members of all four types, Fomori, Drones, Gorgons and Kami.
Step One: Name the PCs Squad
Step Two: Write up a six person squad

• Chuck, a human kami. Chuck was a young african man who had taught himself basic medicine before receiving formal medical training. He was chosen by Gaia one day when he gave medical attention to a man who would, on any other day, in any other circumstance, shot him dead and raped his wife and sister. His devotion to healing was both an example to the wounded man, and a sign to Gaia. His gaes is Healing, meaning he cannot refuse medical aid to someone who asks it, and generally he is the party face, being cosmetically perfectly human, and not possessed of off putting vibes.
• Steve, a human drone. Steve was an introverted, agoraphobic computer engineer who, one day, untangled a line of code from the internet and experienced the Weaver's Onesong. The sound was calming and inviting, and he pursued it, untangling more of the strange code he was pulling down looking for it's source. As he worked, the pattern spiders wove the chrysalis around him and clarified him. He is one of few known cases where he was clarified while conscious and active. He came out of the process an avid drone, seeking to do his mistress' bidding, and aid her goals. He is primarily a the group's computer tech, and handy when security systems bar their way. However, he is also their liaison to the Weaver's children, smoothing over misunderstandings, and obtaining access where they'd otherwise be opposed.
• Gordo, a four armed, brutish, human fomor. Gordo was a gentle giant found by the Wyrm while working in an animal shelter. He wasn't particularly bright, but he handled the larger animals when they had to be put down, and was quite adept at calming them. Now Gordo is the squad's muscle and animal handler. He feeds on fear, either inspiring more in enemies, or removing it from innocents, as he feasts.
• Skippy, a sentient rock gorgon. Skippy is a largish stone granted locomotion, sentience, and a mouth full of large sharp teeth by the Wyld. No one knows why, nor, indeed, how Skippy sees. Maybe the Wyld thought it was funny. When Skippy isn't acting as sentient thrown weaponry for Gordo, he often reads Shakespeare, or confuses and unnerves intruders in the Squad's home, before biting them in the ass.
• Dante, a human kami. Gaia decided that the wolves werent' cutting it, and found a young man, quite adept with weapons, with a deep love of nature, and reached in, awakening his spirit. He is now a kami, with a gaes of barefoot (he cannot cover his feet, ever).
• Alfred, a human fomor. Alfred was a mafia hitman before a run in with a roving gang of surviving Spirals inspired such righteous indignation that non-humans delved to such depths of depravity, something which seemed so wrong, especially given how absolutely wrong it is when humans do it, could exist. He'd seen a lot of terrible things in his time, and always justified it by what righteous acts were also perpetrated by humans. After caving in the last spiral's skull and burning out the insides, the Wyrm brought him into the fold, impressed by his resistance to the delirium, and appreciative of his zeal in ending one of the Wyrm's remaining blights. After sprouting long, spindly legs and a spider's abdomen, he went and penned his resignation to his boss, primarily in his boss' blood, and left, being taken in by the Squad, where he acts as their problem solver and underworld inhabitant.

Step Three: Write up a Three Person Squad The six person squad has two people that can be faces (Chuck and Dante), three beaters (Gordo, Skippy and Alfred) and two minds (Steve and Skippy). Make sure the group has a face, beater and mind, and you're pretty set.
Step Four: Outline an Adventure Possessed seems to be a somewhat episodic, monster of the week type of game. Each week, the squad is notified of another creature that has broken from the balance and is threatening Gaia, the earth, the forest, whatever, by the genius locai kami dubbed "Charlie".
Step Five: Outline a campaign The squad learns that the monsters and rogue possessed they've been fighting for the past couple of months have all seemed to come from a single place. They fight their way in, and find that the whole thing has been orchestrated by a very old and very powerful bane spirit that does not like the new order. They have to run, or risk death, and spend the next month or so building up the power and allies required to return to the Malfean Well and confront the bane again, and end his horrible plan.
Step Six: Choose a Base System If I were to run this for my old werewolf group, I'd just go with Storyteller. I have the book, and they know the system, and we have enough fun that we can ignore the bad parts. If I were to run this for people who didn't know Storyteller, I'd use Mutants and Masterminds with a few sparse templates.

So how's that look? It'd require something a bit more than just "survivors of the wyrm's redemption and renegade spirits" but as a start it'd work, I think.

[JigokuBosatsu]

That fomori game we ran was great. Nothing like having a prehensile lightning penis to wash off the taint of being a stupid emo furry.

[TheFlatline]

My problem is that.. given that I can potentially live for ever, as a neonate vampire my first round of business should be.. staying out of the way of anyone who can kill me. Which does not make for a good game.

Except that it's a consious effort to make a vampire. Which means you have a sire that wanted you to be a vampire. And you're one step blood-bound to them from the act of making you a vampire.

So basically, you think your sire is the most awesome guy ever for a year or so unless you drink his/her blood again, at which point you're in love, and after the third time, you're utterly and completely devoted to the person.

The possibility of you avoiding Vampire society is decided completely based on your sire before you're even embraced. You're almost certainly going to go along with whatever your sire wants. You don't get much of a choice.

[Prak]

That fomori game we ran was great. Nothing like having a prehensile lightning penis to wash off the taint of being a stupid emo furry.

...

Thank you for reminding me why I've never ran a Fomori game...

[JigokuBosatsu]

Mission accomplished.

[Prak]

When I was allowed to crack open my book to make a character for an actual game, I tended to go with gorgons and kami. Fomori... ugh. They can work, just ignore that Freak Legions was ever printed and that Book of the Wyrm has rules for them...

[K]

I ran a vampire game once, where the Vampire in question regretted having been turned into a vampire, and hated it. She was spending her unlife trying to find a way to undo it and die a good death, so she could return to the Karmic Wheel.

The cool part, was that the harder she strived to survive long enough to find a way to save her soul, the more inhuman monster she became. It was interesting, but it only worked because there was only 1 player, with a very specific background.

Most people when faced with the idea they can live forever, they just have to kill the occasional person will rationalize it for long enough to lose their humanity and not give a rats ass about other people.

I think this is a good example. I mean, I can totally see how living by an untrue and bizarre set of assumptions will drive you crazy. I mean, she is trying to save a "soul" that doesn't even exist because think thinks she's cursed.... I don't even know how you try to do that.

Personally, as a new vampire I think you are only damned if you buy into the hype. I mean, they tell you that you have to drink human blood even though getting that blood makes you do things that put you on the moral scale somewhere between serial killer and serial rapist (even the one's with Dominate who can remove memories are just date rapists with rufies). The fact that you could just drink animal blood and still be a moral person, but you don't because some people tell you that you shouldn't is the kind of hubris that leads to damnation.

The same goes to getting involved in vampire society. Your sire might be totally awesome, but getting into vampire society because of that is like joining a violent street-gang because one the killers is really cool. Anyone with a bit of spine is going to leave town when the gangsters start asking for favors and grabbing you to go on crime and murder sprees.

Sure, you have rage issues, but it's not like you are going to automatically think "hey, now that I'm a vampire I should work in customer service."

[TheFlatline]

I ran a vampire game once, where the Vampire in question regretted having been turned into a vampire, and hated it. She was spending her unlife trying to find a way to undo it and die a good death, so she could return to the Karmic Wheel.

The cool part, was that the harder she strived to survive long enough to find a way to save her soul, the more inhuman monster she became. It was interesting, but it only worked because there was only 1 player, with a very specific background.

Most people when faced with the idea they can live forever, they just have to kill the occasional person will rationalize it for long enough to lose their humanity and not give a rats ass about other people.

I think this is a good example. I mean, I can totally see how living by an untrue and bizarre set of assumptions will drive you crazy. I mean, she is trying to save a "soul" that doesn't even exist because think thinks she's cursed.... I don't even know how you try to do that.

Personally, as a new vampire I think you are only damned if you buy into the hype. I mean, they tell you that you have to drink human blood even though getting that blood makes you do things that put you on the moral scale somewhere between serial killer and serial rapist (even the one's with Dominate who can remove memories are just date rapists with rufies). The fact that you could just drink animal blood and still be a moral person, but you don't because some people tell you that you shouldn't is the kind of hubris that leads to damnation.

The same goes to getting involved in vampire society. Your sire might be totally awesome, but getting into vampire society because of that is like joining a violent street-gang because one the killers is really cool. Anyone with a bit of spine is going to leave town when the gangsters start asking for favors and grabbing you to go on crime and murder sprees.

Sure, you have rage issues, but it's not like you are going to automatically think "hey, now that I'm a vampire I should work in customer service."

Dude, you're having selective memory and misinterpreting shit. Over and over and over again. It's getting tiring.

1. Animal blood tastes like shit, and requires fucking gallons of it to get you to the same point that feeding on one person requires. It's like subsisting on gallons of piss that you drink every day because you want to remain "moral", even though every instinct you have pushes you towards doing the opposite. Plus, feeding off of hundreds of animals a week is expensive. Going to the club and feeding on some college girl is free.

1a. Vampires stick to the city. Why? Their food source is there, but also, as soon as you leave town, lupines (werewolves, technically *not* garou) will shred your ass and turn you into dust. You have to specifically build yourself as a survivalist character to live outside a city.

1b. Which leads me to: If you're drinking dozens or hundreds of animals dry each week (depending on what you're drinking and how much blood you use), what the fuck are you going to do with all those animal corpses? Remember, you need blood hot from the vein, so blood banks technically don't count (even though every vampire video game ever uses blood packs).

2. You don't gain potential power as you get older. That's the new vampire game. The old vampire game, when you're embraced, you have a background called generation, which pre-determines your maximum power level you will *ever* acquire. In fact, the big thing for generations 12-8 is that you get a bigger blood pool, are immune to higher generation mindfucks, and that's it. It's not until you hit 7th that you start getting access to more powers. And to get to 7th gen in Vampire, you must drink every drop of blood dry out of a vampire who is lower gen than you, then keep sucking and literally consume his soul. And then you drop one gen. So if you're 8th gen, you have to diablerize once to hit 7th. If you're 12th, that's 5 instances. And, you flat out lose humanity, no roll permitted, whenever you diablerize. Which means there are a handful of ways to get around needing human blood that will ever be open to you.

3. Go read the rules for blood binding. You don't think that someone is just cool, you're automatically predisposed to *want* to make that person happy, even at the lower levels of blood binding. So picture someone you love telling you "I want you to meet some of my friends" and you saying, not knowing anything about this group "fuck you, I'm going to go do my own thing". If you're even step 2 bloodbound, you're not going to refuse the person unless you're going to be put into obvious danger. At step 3, even mortal danger isn't a big deal to you any more so long as you make your master happy. Plus, once the vampire society meets you *once* (or even just hear enough about you), most of the political vampires can summon you supernaturally in a way you absolutely cannot resist unless you're a lower generation, which requires diablerization. sometimes a lot of it.

So please quit splitting the same two hairs over and over and over again. While it is possible to achieve the ends you're talking about, it would take a character's entire devotion to such an end to be viable. And there's shit that will try to interfere with you during such an endeavor.

[Username17]

I have no idea where you're getting this blood from a vein shit. Drinking blood off the floor totally worked. Drinking th blood of cold fucking corpses totally worked too. The Giovanni clan disadvantage was that they had to do that, they didn't have a clan advantage that allowed them to. Secondly, I don't know why you think that drinking a lot of blood from animals was a problem. The rules said you had to drink a rat dry to get one blood trait. Excuse me, but so fucking what? Let's assume that you need XXL Rats to get a whole blood trait. That's still you paying about $2 a day for regular food and up to $20 to amuse yourself with super powers. That's cheaper than I eat, and I eat a lot of dried peas. And you can raise your own damn rats for even less.

Now the free floating rage and fear thing, that's a much bigger and more nebulous thing. While the rules allowed you to basically pop willpower whenever you wanted and never ever frenzy, it was obvious that people in the world didn't have player choosing when t would be most useful to spend willpower.

Bottom line: mastering your dark vampire urges ad living a normal life was easy if you were the protagonist. But for everyone else, it was only barely possible. Being an oWoD Vampire was certainly risky and unpleasant. But I'd still sign up for it in a New York Minute.

-Username17

[K]

1. Animal blood tastes like shit, and requires fucking gallons of it to get you to the same point that feeding on one person requires. It's like subsisting on gallons of piss that you drink every day because you want to remain "moral", even though every instinct you have pushes you towards doing the opposite. Plus, feeding off of hundreds of animals a week is expensive. Going to the club and feeding on some college girl is free.

1b. Which leads me to: If you're drinking dozens or hundreds of animals dry each week (depending on what you're drinking and how much blood you use), what the fuck are you going to do with all those animal corpses? Remember, you need blood hot from the vein, so blood banks technically don't count (even though every vampire video game ever uses blood packs).

Ok, here is a simple lesson in morality: if you don't do the right thing because it's inconvenient, or because it costs a little money, or because you won't enjoy it, then you are fucking evil.

An actual moral person is going to drink animal blood so that he doesn't risk killing people and because drinking someone's blood against their will is somewhere between rape and assault.

If you can't comprehend that, then you need to just stop arguing the point because it makes you look like a sociopath. I'm serious.

PS. A smart person is not going to do it because you risk vampire hunters and weird vampire territorialism and breaking the Masquerade.

1a. Vampires stick to the city. Why? Their food source is there, but also, as soon as you leave town, lupines (werewolves, technically *not* garou) will shred your ass and turn you into dust. You have to specifically build yourself as a survivalist character to live outside a city.

Leaving town doesn't mean you have to live in a cave. You can just go to a small town where they don't have vampires. I mean, there are a lot of vampires in WoD, but small towns are literally supposed to have like 0-1 vampires. You could be that guy.

2. You don't gain potential power as you get older.

Not entirely sure what you are talking about. Vampires gain actual power over time by learning new disciplines and paths and rituals. Heck, rituals don't even cost XP.

And who cares if Diabolism costs Humanity? You can get Humanity back with XP. Considering that, and the number of times you might want to gain Generation, it's actually acceptable amounts of XP to lose over several centuries.

Morally, taking serial killers out of circulation is not too bad either. Who cares if it's an auto-Humanity loss for the method you used?

Please explain what you are ranting about.

3. Go read the rules for blood binding. You don't think that someone is j

Actually, you should go read the part about Blood Bonds. Read the part where you don't have to do anything except some RP unless you were actually bound. Then read the part where even if you were totally Bound you could spend Willpower to do stuff like kill your sire (with some difficulty).

The one step Bond is something like "sometimes has dreams about them" and "occasionally frequents places where they go." Leaving town is not even an issue.

Lots of people leave people they love, for a variety of reasons. It's not even hard. People who can't do that are the mentally ill.