Fleeing kobolds, morality, and the shit hole.

[Molochio]

A few years back one of my DMs took it upon herself to run The Worlds Largest Dungeon, which she described largely as was written from the box:

The World's Largest Dungeon is a Dungeons & Dragons adventure with 800 maps or so meant to run from levels one to twenty.
"The players can't leave the dungeon the way they entered because the entrance uses a one way wall of force effect. This means that all supplies must be taken into the dungeon with them. The campaign is designed to take four to six characters from first level to 20th or above over the course of two real-time years and at least a year of game time. The dungeon contains examples of every type of monster."

Upon asking if that included slimes, oozes, and puddings, and getting a yes, I resolved to play a cleric of the god of slime with the ability to turn such creatures because fighting "fuck you monsters" in melee is sub optimal.

However, the DM flatly refused to let me do this, so I rolled a rogue, and my party consisted of a second rogue, a ranger specialized in archery who fought with a great axe, and a mage (who was, in fact, a third rogue in disguise with robes, a book, and flasks of alchemists fire, who intended to level in wizard next.)

Since magic was largely ineffective in this gaming circle due to the monsters auto save propensity, I opted to go with avoidance of fighting undesirables.

Thus we were there as a second level party composed as described, and my human rogue, Lucien, entered the worlds largest dungeon with his good friend, the ranger, and their two associates.

Our first hour spent transversing the dungeon was empty.
We would pass by room after room of dungeon with mold on the walls, or a dusty skeleton, empty stone cairns, and a cess pool of fecal matter but no monsters.

We would find decayed burlap sacks or a rusty discarded dagger but no treasure. There was... Nothing.
It was maddening and after a while we began to bicker among ourselves and then I developed an idea.

Lucien carried a whistle that he might blow if the party was separated, so I decided to blow my whistle in hopes that the noise would summon monsters that we might set upon them and put them to death.

And I did this thing.

A short time after, we saw that my idea had worked as a number of kobolds came running down a hall towards us but to our surprise, they KEPT running. Not even stopping to acknowledge us.

It was at this time that the mage became involved with my friend, the ranger, in an argument about the morality of killing these kobolds, saying,
"Wait! They're running from something! They're afraid! We can't kill them, they need help."
To which the ranger responded,
"They're kobolds! They steal human babies and eat them. We don't save these things!"
Their morality argument went back and forth like this for some time while our other rogue stood by waiting on the decision of party leadership as to whether we kill fleeing kobolds or stop and ask them if they need our help.

In the meantime, I took aim with my crossbow and shot a fleeing kobold in the back, killing it.
The argument continued, and the ranger asked,
"What would you have us do! Stop and offer them water? Ask, what's wrong little fellow, did someone hurt you?"
And I reloaded my crossbow and shot a second kobold in the back.
My third bold missed and then line of sight was lost.
The argument ended with the mage saying to the ranger,
"Very well then. I can't stop you..."
An unspoken "yet" hung heavily in the air.

No agreement was met in the kobold murder morality argument and party continued on bitterly for a while thereafter.

More empty rooms and broken, dilapidated furniture. Another shit hole.
No treasure... No monsters...

Eventually, we came to a scenario in which we, or more specifically the mage was ambushed by an ogre and the only person in a position to do ANYTHING was the ranger.

So time stood still as everyone watched, agape, wondering if the ranger would take the ultimate "I told you so" and just let the mage die.

But after a moment of consideration, the ranger saved the mage.
Our party fought the ogre to a standstill and he surrendered to plead for his life.
I do not recall if we spared him or not.

Another senseless party argument came about and the other rogue spoke on the matter so I hit him in the back of the head with my sap, rendering him unconscious, and the ranger and I drug him to a shit hole and left him in it.

But really... Who was right?
We never did go back to the worlds largest dungeon.

[RobbyPants]

What do you mean "who was right"? Do you mean in some absolute moral sense, or just in that situation in that game?

If you mean the latter, I guess it depends on their alignments. Both of them could have been "right" (acting in character). If you mean the former, I'd say it's not good to be shooting thing's in the back that have shown no hostility toward you.

[Sir Neil]

In my D&D games, kobolds aren't always evil monsters, so the mage would have been right. YMMV.

[Midnight_v]

The annoying thing is that someone stopped in the dungeon to have a conversation about the morality of killing the monsters at all. Its just a damn drama play.
I think the problem was more one of what game are you playing, if you're playing in your head something akin to D&D tower of doom, team monster exists to be killed. Period. Really, there's not thing wrong with that persepctive, Kill the bad guys, take the loot, save the princess.
Also at the point where theres a guy literally "BLOWING A FUCKING WHISTLE TO SUMMON SOMETHING TO FIGHT" it becomes clear that there's a discrepancy in how these dudes want to play.
This is one of the reasons why you need to get on the same page about what type of game is being played, I don't think the WLD is supposed to be deep immersion roleplaying... but this varies by group.
Giving someone grief about killing "favorite compassion adjetive" Kobolds, is still just fucking griefing them period.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The kobolds were probably just trying to ambush you. Run by, run over a covered pit trap, heavier PCs fall in, and then they shoot you like fish in a barrel.

But it really sounds like the dungeon is just maps which the DM is supposed to place encounters in, and she...didn't.

[Molochio]

What do you mean "who was right"? Do you mean in some absolute moral sense, or just in that situation in that game?

If you mean the latter, I guess it depends on their alignments. Both of them could have been "right" (acting in character). If you mean the former, I'd say it's not good to be shooting thing's in the back that have shown no hostility toward you.

Who's example do you most agree with?
Would you?

A - argue the case of seeing if the fleeting kobolds need aid?
B - argue the case of slaying them as monsters?
C - treat them as "kill on sight" and shoot them without deliberation?
D - do nothing until your leaders decided which course was morally appropriate?

[Molochio]

@Midnight: You make a good point in the observation that my whole point of blowing the whistle was to summon monsters that we might put them to death.

@CatharzGodfoot: also an excellent view, as kobolds are known to use ambush tactics. The DM did appear to forget to stock the dungeon with monsters as well as any form of treasure.

[RobbyPants]

Who's example do you most agree with?
Would you?

A - argue the case of seeing if the fleeting kobolds need aid?
B - argue the case of slaying them as monsters?
C - treat them as "kill on sight" and shoot them without deliberation?
D - do nothing until your leaders decided which course was morally appropriate?

Me? Personally?

I wouldn't run to their aid because I'd be suspicious as hell. I would probably get all defensive and try to see what they're running from, so I wouldn't be shooting them in the back. I'd pretty much take a neutral, yet skeptical stance until provoked.

[Kaelik]

Actually, WLD is pretty ridic, and you could actually go through several hundred rooms without ever facing a single encounter, if you end up taking the right path. And treasure is so sparse, you basically never find any, and when I ran it for all of one level, I had to take random pieces of vendor trash, like a deck of cards, and turn them into magic items.

[RobbyPants]

I take it that it doesn't adhere to WBL in the slightest?

[sabs]

WLD is a beer and pretzel game of silly stupidity.

You play it with twinked out min-max characters, and you don't take it seriously. Actual roleplaying in WLD seems silly. It's a thought exercise and problemsolving/war gaming thing.

[Kaelik]

I take it that it doesn't adhere to WBL in the slightest?

I don't know. It gives you all sorts of bullshit vendor trash that might theoretically add up to WBL, but who the fuck cares because there are no goddam vendors.

Also, it specifically tells you to not follow the normal XP rules. It basically says "We don't care how you do it, here are some examples, but no matter what you do, just make extra fucking sure they level much slower than normal" so it's possible, what with all the vendor trash, that they follow the WBL for a slowed X progression.

So anyway, fuck them.

It is exactly what sabs says, but oh well. I wouldn't mind playing it, if I could ever convince a DM that the actual test isn't "wear them down with 400 shitty fights in a row" and let me play a character that is always at full Hp and has at will abilities, because fuck that other shit.

If I could ever get to level 3, I could solo the whole thing with a DFA.

[Molochio]

I take it that it doesn't adhere to WBL in the slightest?

I don't know. It gives you all sorts of bullshit vendor trash that might theoretically add up to WBL, but who the fuck cares because there are no goddam vendors.

Also, it specifically tells you to not follow the normal XP rules. It basically says "We don't care how you do it, here are some examples, but no matter what you do, just make extra fucking sure they level much slower than normal" so it's possible, what with all the vendor trash, that they follow the WBL for a slowed X progression.

So anyway, fuck them.

It is exactly what sabs says, but oh well. I wouldn't mind playing it, if I could ever convince a DM that the actual test isn't "wear them down with 400 shitty fights in a row" and let me play a character that is always at full Hp and has at will abilities, because fuck that other shit.

If I could ever get to level 3, I could solo the whole thing with a DFA.

This sounds very much in line with what I experienced during my brief WLD adventure. No treasure, no monsters, no experience.
Hell... No NPC's.

After 4 hours of it, we came to very much the same conclusion that you reached.
"Fuck that shit. Fuck that shit forever."

[Fuchs]

I can't really believe anyone would play an adventure called "World's Largest Dungeon" and take it seriously, not after reading the description.

[Cynic]

has anyone tried the world's largest city version? i'm curious

[TarkisFlux]

The singular amazon review of the city product is extremely encouraging... for some values of "encouraging".

[Spike]

I ran a party through the first section of the dungeon over a period of several months. Of course, I added wandering monsters of whatever was the local sort (Darkmantles, Kobolds and Troglodytes for the first chapter as I remember...).

It still wasn't as fun as a normal game, and the party eventually imploded from personal drama... because there wasn't enough going on to engage them.

[Prak]

Our first hour spent transversing the dungeon was empty.
We would pass by room after room of dungeon with mold on the walls, or a dusty skeleton, empty stone cairns, and a cess pool of fecal matter but no monsters.

We would find decayed burlap sacks or a rusty discarded dagger but no treasure. There was... Nothing.

I take it that it doesn't adhere to WBL in the slightest?

I don't know. It gives you all sorts of bullshit vendor trash that might theoretically add up to WBL, but who the fuck cares because there are no goddam vendors.

Also, it specifically tells you to not follow the normal XP rules. It basically says "We don't care how you do it, here are some examples, but no matter what you do, just make extra fucking sure they level much slower than normal" so it's possible, what with all the vendor trash, that they follow the WBL for a slowed X progression.

So anyway, fuck them.

It is exactly what sabs says, but oh well. I wouldn't mind playing it, if I could ever convince a DM that the actual test isn't "wear them down with 400 shitty fights in a row" and let me play a character that is always at full Hp and has at will abilities, because fuck that other shit.

If I could ever get to level 3, I could solo the whole thing with a DFA.

This sounds very much in line with what I experienced during my brief WLD adventure. No treasure, no monsters, no experience.
Hell... No NPC's.

After 4 hours of it, we came to very much the same conclusion that you reached.
"Fuck that shit. Fuck that shit forever."

Honestly, I think what happened is that your DM ran you through some supplemental rooms that are presented before the dungeon actually starts. I've been reading through, and the book starts by talking about general conditions in the dungeon, then presents 20 empty rooms to be dropped in at the DM's discretion. I think your DMs ran you through those rooms, because the first actual region of the dungeon has orcs that--it doesn't allow you to--but you could interact with beyond just fighting, a roving swarm of fiendish rats, fiendish darkmantles waiting to closet troll you and fiendish dire rats scrounging through the swarm's sloppy seconds. That's like the first twenty rooms.

[Kaelik]

Honestly, I think what happened is that your DM ran you through some supplemental rooms that are presented before the dungeon actually starts. I've been reading through, and the book starts by talking about general conditions in the dungeon, then presents 20 empty rooms to be dropped in at the DM's discretion. I think your DMs ran you through those rooms, because the first actual region of the dungeon has orcs that--it doesn't allow you to--but you could interact with beyond just fighting, a roving swarm of fiendish rats, fiendish darkmantles waiting to closet troll you and fiendish dire rats scrounging through the swarm's sloppy seconds. That's like the first twenty rooms.

Maybe that is what happened, but as someone who definitely played with a DM who didn't do that, it still feels really fucking empty in the first area. Think about it, does anyone fucking care about fighting rats? No. Everybody just treats that as the arbitrary filler it is. And the one group of orcs is pretty much nothing too. And Drakmantles, if you don't walk into otherwise empty rooms with nothing you want in them, literally never even attack you.

So... basically until you either go through the secret doors and run into the Kobold Barricade, or go north and run into the Ogre, it feels like you haven't done anything at all.

[Prak]

Yeah, reading more, I recant a bit. The start of the dungeon is "group of orc that want nothing to do with you, rats, darkmantle, rats, darkmantle, rats, darkmantle, ogre, nothing...." with some bullshit traps, oh and "1d4 con/round" stirges.