The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

[talozin]

I kind of wonder whether, if you surveyed 100 people who bought a 4e PHB, you'd find even 10 who could identify and describe the relevance to D&D of Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, de Camp & Pratt, or Poul Anderson. The numbers would probably only be marginally better for 3e buyers, that's not a slam on 4e. These guys just aren't the source material for D&D any more and haven't been since before 2nd edition came out.

D&D is its own source material these days, with periodic infusions from whatever other fantasy tropes are popular at the moment. Inability to accurately reproduce tales of Fafhrd and the Mouser isn't a bug, it's a feature.

[Wallacism]

Grogfix: replace all instances of the word "Fighter" with "Swordwizard". problem solved

Grogfix: solve Yugo's lack of acceleration by renaming it "Corvette".
It's just that easy!

[Halloween Jack]

I kind of wonder whether, if you surveyed 100 people who bought a 4e PHB, you'd find even 10 who could identify and describe the relevance to D&D of Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, de Camp & Pratt, or Poul Anderson. The numbers would probably only be marginally better for 3e buyers, that's not a slam on 4e. These guys just aren't the source material for D&D any more and haven't been since before 2nd edition came out.

D&D is its own source material these days, with periodic infusions from whatever other fantasy tropes are popular at the moment. Inability to accurately reproduce tales of Fafhrd and the Mouser isn't a bug, it's a feature.

Quoted for truth; D&D is its own genre. You even see other games (like Earthdawn) being produced with justification for D&D's genre elements (dungeon delves, epic warriors, monsters with no plausible ecology) built into the setting from word one.

[MadScientistWorking]

Also, a late game daily that flat-out kills an opponent is what passes for balance in 4e. You sure as fuck wouldn't fight a late game 4e solo, because that would be boring as fuck. High level dailies that don't do a lot of damage to a large number of enemies or negate a large number of incoming damage simply aren't used.

But really I think we've seen the important thing about these 4rries. They come here to 4venge us, but they aren't even introspective about their own game. It's pathetic.

-Username17

Those dailies that actually hit for absurdly large values have a backfire mechanic on them. Otherwise they are balanced because hitting for a large amount isn't always the most effective tactic.

[FatR]

I don't know why you say this. The Mouser had GREAT skill with a dagger. It would have made more of a plot device to make him MISS.

The wizard in question was black-tentacling Fafhrd and Grey Mouser to death, and the same tentacles also protected him from ranged attacks, as our beatstick friends found empirically immediately prior to having the plot device dropped in their lap. (Also, I re-checked this scene - it's one from the story F and GM first meet - and Fafhrd actually throws the fateful dagger, but not that it even matters, their skillsets have rather cosmetic differences anyway.)

EDIT: Ninja'ed by Frank two posters. Oh, whatever. The point stands either way.

[FatR]

I kind of wonder whether, if you surveyed 100 people who bought a 4e PHB, you'd find even 10 who could identify and describe the relevance to D&D of Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, de Camp & Pratt, or Poul Anderson. The numbers would probably only be marginally better for 3e buyers, that's not a slam on 4e. These guys just aren't the source material for D&D any more and haven't been since before 2nd edition came out.

D&D is its own source material these days, with periodic infusions from whatever other fantasy tropes are popular at the moment. Inability to accurately reproduce tales of Fafhrd and the Mouser isn't a bug, it's a feature.

So... then why in Nine Hells then 4E decided to take a shit on the previous edition of DnD? Not only by rearranging stuff so it won't even be recognizable as the same game by someone who was drawn to DnD because he liked one of previous-editions CRPGs. But also by building its marketing campaing by deliberately distancing itself from 3.X and repeatedly slamming realities of the previous edition?

Also, we're aware, that 4E strives to imitate modern MMORPGs above anything else. Leiber and sword&sorcery were merely mentioned as an example of deception inherent in the concept of Vanilla Action Hero going against DnD-scale (and even significantly lower-scale shit). Someone from the troll team said above that Conan is somehow supposed to be badass because mundane humans can't take him down - save for a couple of relatively common circumstances. But in the game where you are supposed to walk up to the cosmic principle of greed and envy and attack her until she ceases to exist, feats like this are so insignificant that they aren't even worth mentioning.

Yet 4E insists, that doing basically the same shit Conan does, except better in some not-outwardly-manifesting-way, is sufficient to take down said cosmic principle. In other words, you are supposed to win a conflict that would have been one of the most, if not the most impressive victory in their entire lives for Superman or Dr. Strange, while not being observably better than Conan. This is fucking stupid. In fact, it actually insults my intelligence.

[violence in the media]

18-20 to start with, +1 every four level, +1/2 level to Strength ability checks.

Yeah and that tops out at 30 STR, which means that at level 28 a +2 STR bonus race that picked an ED that gave +2 to strength can deadlift 600 lbs..

Impressive, but nothing really special.

Seriously?

I mean, this guy is admittedly one of the strongest guys in the world, but he can deadlift around 400 kilos (880 lbs). I'd think that an epic level demigod should be able to surpass that, especially one with Strength as a focus.

[quanta]

We use the word verisimilitude to refer to things that are consistent with the expectations of the genre and things previously established about the setting, the events, and the characters. When we use the word verisimilitude, w are referring explicitly to that. We use that word instead of "realism" because "realism" is a word that is continuously confused with people's individually poorly understood ideas about physics and the limits of the human body.

We are not budging on this issue. We already had to get a new word because people were arguing that it wasn't "realistic" for a man to jump six meters straight up while having no apparent problems with a horse flying under the power of fucking wings. We are not getting a new new word. Verisimilitude works for our purposes.

You need a better word. A word that actually means what you mean. I recommend inventing a new, awesome word. This would be far more interesting than the retarded herp-derp "my inconsistent fantasy world where I pretend to be an elf is better than yours because SHONKYFROG!" bullshit of the last 4 or 5 pages. Half of the shit isn't true, and half the complaints are applicable to most of 3e and 4e especially when you consider how the vast majority of people actually play.

Also, a late game daily that flat-out kills an opponent is what passes for balance in 4e. You sure as fuck wouldn't fight a late game 4e solo, because that would be boring as fuck. High level dailies that don't do a lot of damage to a large number of enemies or negate a large number of incoming damage simply aren't used.

Anyways... You can kill about 3 high level 4e solos in like 3 turns with 4 characters, at least on an unrealistic flat plain. The main issue is figuring out at what distance the encounter starts which is pretty much completely terrain and adventure dependent. But if you get within 20ish squares, it's not even a challenge. I think only one character took damage, and it was a total of 30 damage out of 200-something HP.

But the amount of optimization and number of dice you have to roll is fucking insane (although it may not work as well now since the nerf to crits triggering additional attacks). You basically just spam like 10 attacks a round from a ranger, barbarian, or ranger|barbarian. And a taclord is by far the best choice of leader (I actually used a taclord and a wizard|taclord) to refresh the multiattack powers and give like +15 to hit to guarantee hitting on a 2. And then of course you just have a wizard who stunlocks the deities for the couple rounds you need (this can be done post OoI nerf). And the uber-punisher paladin who when ignored uses his DC, gets an AoO (I think it was the Champion of Order PP), and uses an encounter interrupt that blinds. If you don't win initiative, it's going to take longer though.

Against well-optimized players high level 4e deities actually don't have too much HP (ok, they used to not; maybe nerfs have seriously damaged the offensive ability I remember). They just can't put up a comparable offense despite having uber auto-daze, 50-square enemy teleports, minor action attacks, and shit (like demogorgon) because this isn't comparable to the PC's ability to just one round them.

[Roxolan]

Great. More 4rries.

edit: Basically it's a mess of a class that veers wildly back and
forth between being overpowered (a late-game Daily that flat-out kills an opponent) and being complete shit (having three different primary stats)

None of that is remotely true. It has three available builds that each hav 2 primary stats, not one build that has 3 primary stats. You can play it Dex/Cha, Dex/Con, or Con/Cha.

Also, a late game daily that flat-out kills an opponent is what passes for balance in 4e. You sure as fuck wouldn't fight a late game 4e solo, because that would be boring as fuck. High level dailies that don't do a lot of damage to a large number of enemies or negate a large number of incoming damage simply aren't used.

But really I think we've seen the important thing about these 4rries. They come here to 4venge us, but they aren't even introspective about their own game. It's pathetic.

-Username17

Wow, Frank still defends the Baneguard? I honestly thought he considered it an ugly early design by now, not something to be proud of. From the overall concept to the class features to the marking (even assuming it worked as intended) to most of the powers in obvious or subtle ways, it's hard to find anything in there that isn't Bad Design.

[Darwinism]

18-20 to start with, +1 every four level, +1/2 level to Strength ability checks.

Yeah and that tops out at 30 STR, which means that at level 28 a +2 STR bonus race that picked an ED that gave +2 to strength can deadlift 600 lbs..

Impressive, but nothing really special.

Seriously?

I mean, this guy is admittedly one of the strongest guys in the world, but he can deadlift around 400 kilos (880 lbs). I'd think that an epic level demigod should be able to surpass that, especially one with Strength as a focus.

Actually top end carry weight is 20 * Strength score, and that is how much you can carry and still walk around.

Ask that dude to walk around with his deadlift weight and see how far he can go, now compare that to a guy actually being able to move, albeit slower than normal, with 500lbs for as long as he wants.

Deadlift weight would just be pointless to make rules for; anything involving the most weight you could lift would be better represented by a strength check, anyway.

[Doom]

Certainly it's not the most amazing character class ever....but what one guy can do in a short amount of time *shouldn't* match what the WoTC team can do. Granted, there are some glaring problems, but nothing that can't be fixed in a few penstrokes.

On the other hand, there are several character classes/powers that are just plain *bad*, and they actually were made by full-timers and put in hardcover books, as opposed to one guy posting on a forum in his spare time.

The fact that the two situations are comparable says much for 4e.

[Roxolan]

Yeah and that tops out at 30 STR, which means that at level 28 a +2 STR bonus race that picked an ED that gave +2 to strength can deadlift 600 lbs..

Or without magical aid or some obscure racial ability/feat, they can get a maximum +25 bonus to strength checks at level 30. Then they have a 50/50 chance of breaking through a masonry stone wall (1 ft. thick).

Impressive, but nothing really special.

At level 30, a fighter can take 10 to burst adamantine chains or force open an adamantine portcullis.

That information comes from the same table where you found the stone wall, I guess you must have overlooked it.

[Roy]

I tend to regard the contemptible in contempt, yes. You should too. It's like someone trying to sell a Model T at new car prices. The Model T was nice. As a starting point. Many years ago.

As for a 3.5 bashing thread, it has plenty of problems too, and unlike 4rries, I am quite willing to go into those problems. The thing is, it's less flawed than 4.Fail, and less flawed than most everything else out there. Mostly because tabletop gaming is really fucked up.

Self hate is never pretty Roy. You should probably see a therapist about that and your irrational hatred to the point of making up pejoratives of a gaming system.

Oh and please point us to the parts where we're unwilling to discuss 4E's problems because I'm pretty sure that's just you making up a strawman so you can seem to be reasonable only in the same paragraph you prove that you're not willing to be reasonable by throwing out what you obviously consider to be an insult.

edit: ohhh I bet you mean the parts where people point out that the 'flaws' of 4E that are largely presented in this thread boil down to just opinions and blatantly false accusations, yeah we actually are unwilling to accept, "the system is broken because you can't break down doors," or, "there is no player agency even though that's literally impossible," or, "there are no meaningful choices because I say so." Because those are really dumb arguments.

Paizil Fallacy, and more 4rries.

You get Low Stronged because you lack the skill to partake of an actual fight.

Fail, Hi Welcome, and all that jazz.

Seriously, Roy? Breaking through doors? That door is scenery, nothing more. If the DM had wanted it to be more than a retextured wall, it would have been open to start with. Besides, if the players don't need to go find the blue key, what's going to force them to fight those orcs he statted up?

As for a 3.5 bashing thread, it has plenty of problems too, and unlike 4rries, I am quite willing to go into those problems. The thing is, it's less flawed than 4.Fail, and less flawed than most everything else out there. Mostly because tabletop gaming is really fucked up.

Have you considered berating it by using a catchphrase that isn't almost old enough to go to high school? This is like listening to my dad tell me that all my base belong to his Tom Clancy books. Actually, I think Dad's pace with pop culture is a lot more recent than Hamsterdance at this point.

Low Strong. It can be addressed, and dismissed with a single short word or phrase. The age of said statement is irrelevant, only that it never makes it past the brick wall of being dismissed out of hand as useless irrelevant drek to be discussed meaningfully.

[Darwinism]

Mass of stupidity.

Look we know you don't have the ability to engage people in an actual argument you can stop proving it over and over.

Certainly it's not the most amazing character class ever....but what one guy can do in a short amount of time *shouldn't* match what the WoTC team can do. Granted, there are some glaring problems, but nothing that can't be fixed in a few penstrokes.

On the other hand, there are several character classes/powers that arejust plain *bad*, and they actually were made by full-timers and put in hardcover books, as opposed to one guy posting on a forum in his spare time.

The fact that the two situations are comparable says much for 4e.

No, seriously, it's the most amazingly bad character class. It's horribly imbalanced, horribly written, and horribly themed. It doesn't match anything but the same generic structure of classes.

At first I thought it was intentionally bad as some kind of mockery of people saying it was easy to make a class, but no... no, you're actually defending it.

[Roxolan]

Certainly it's not the most amazing character class ever....but what one guy can do in a short amount of time *shouldn't* match what the WoTC team can do.

But it, you know, doesn't.

Granted, there are some glaring problems, but nothing that can't be fixed in a few penstrokes.

You'd literally have to rewrite most class features and most of the powers. Out of the rest, yeah, some can be fixed in a few penstrokes.

(edit: upon re-reading, I don't think even 1/3 is salvageable.)

On the other hand, there are several character classes/powers that are just plain *bad*, and they actually were made by full-timers and put in hardcover books, as opposed to one guy posting on a forum in his spare time.

No argument there (although this is true of every game with a lot of supplementary material, even outside TTRPGs). I just think it's insane that Frank (and you!) still uses the Bane Guard as an example of even decent design.

[Halloween Jack]

Someone from the troll team said above that Conan is somehow supposed to be badass because mundane humans can't take him down - save for a couple of relatively common circumstances. But in the game where you are supposed to walk up to the cosmic principle of greed and envy and attack her until she ceases to exist, feats like this are so insignificant that they aren't even worth mentioning.

Yet 4E insists, that doing basically the same shit Conan does, except better in some not-outwardly-manifesting-way, is sufficient to take down said cosmic principle. In other words, you are supposed to win a conflict that would have been one of the most, if not the most impressive victory in their entire lives for Superman or Dr. Strange, while not being observably better than Conan. This is fucking stupid. In fact, it actually insults my intelligence.

I never said that Conan and a 30th-level D&D character are comparable to each other. I said that Conan and Batman are clearly unrealistic. Conan, as depicted in Howard's works, isn't going to be beating up Orcus by himself.

[MGuy]

Certainly it's not the most amazing character class ever....but what one guy can do in a short amount of time *shouldn't* match what the WoTC team can do.

But it, you know, doesn't.

Granted, there are some glaring problems, but nothing that can't be fixed in a few penstrokes.

You'd literally have to rewrite most class features and most of the powers. Out of the rest, yeah, some can be fixed in a few penstrokes.

(edit: upon re-reading, I don't think even 1/3 is salvageable.)

On the other hand, there are several character classes/powers that are just plain *bad*, and they actually were made by full-timers and put in hardcover books, as opposed to one guy posting on a forum in his spare time.

No argument there (although this is true of every game with a lot of supplementary material, even outside TTRPGs). I just think it's insane that Frank (and you!) still uses the Bane Guard as an example of even decent design.

I'm certainly not following your train of thought here. The Bane Guard is far from being the worse 4E class I've read (far from it) and (skipping over fluff I don't care about) seems to be pretty much par for the course for 4E. What I really am having a hard time hurdling over is that you criticize this class for being badly designed when I'd dare say 60% of 4E is designed to this grade or worse as far as I can tell. If you find this class so hard to swallow how can you look at most of the rest of 4E and not blanch?

[Winnah]

Mass of stupidity.

Look we know you don't have the ability to engage people in an actual argument you can stop proving it over and over.

Arguing takes no skill. It's why I'm so at at it while I'm drunk. Debate and Dialectic on the other hand, require that participants adhere to a certain set of guidelines. Once fallacious comments start flying, a clear understanding of the topic becomes overshadowed by people trying to 'win.'

Ignoratio Elenchi

Ad Homonim

Unfalsifiable Hypothesis

Single Clause

Ad Populum

Ad Nauseum

Google some of the above terms. Then read your own posts. Then you can explain to everyone what your actual argument is.

[Darwinism]

Mass of stupidity.

Look we know you don't have the ability to engage people in an actual argument you can stop proving it over and over.

Arguing takes no skill. It's why I'm so at at it while I'm drunk. Debate and Dialectic on the other hand, require that participants adhere to a certain set of guidelines. Once fallacious comments start flying, a clear understanding of the topic becomes overshadowed by people trying to 'win.'

Ignoratio Elenchi

Ad Homonim

Unfalsifiable Hypothesis

Single Clause

Ad Populum

Ad Nauseum

Google some of the above terms. Then read your own posts. Then you can explain to everyone what your actual argument is.

You're so cute when you think parroting terms makes a point

I'm certainly not following your train of thought here. The Bane Guard is far from being the worse 4E class I've read (far from it) and (skipping over fluff I don't care about) seems to be pretty much par for the course for 4E. What I really am having a hard time hurdling over is that you criticize this class for being badly designed when I'd dare say 60% of 4E is designed to this grade or worse as far as I can tell. If you find this class so hard to swallow how can you look at most of the rest of 4E and not blanch?

So you've obviously never actually played 4E because to anyone who has the Bane Guard's powers nearly universally are horrendously overpowered for their level, or for any level. The class description is very bland and the power descriptions are horribly uninspired and are rife with plagiarism. I mean Christ he has an Invader Zim power.

[Roxolan]

I'm certainly not following your train of thought here. The Bane Guard is far from being the worse 4E class I've read (far from it) and (skipping over fluff I don't care about) seems to be pretty much par for the course for 4E. What I really am having a hard time hurdling over is that you criticize this class for being badly designed when I'd dare say 60% of 4E is designed to this grade or worse as far as I can tell.

Then I'm sorry to say you can't tell very much.


To all who think the Bane Guard is easy to fix, a challenge: do it. Fix all of its powers and abilities up to level 5 until it's good enough to print in the PHB42.

If you're any good a designer, I can guarantee it'll take you a lot of work, and by the time you're done it'll look nothing like its current incarnation.

Arguing takes no skill. It's why I'm so at at it while I'm drunk. Debate and Dialectic on the other hand, require that participants adhere to a certain set of guidelines. Once fallacious comments start flying, a clear understanding of the topic becomes overshadowed by people trying to 'win.'

Some posters here are fond of making up their own fallacies though, then use them like the rest of the world is supposed to understand them or give them any sort of legitimacy.

[MGuy]

How about a challenge to you. Point out how the BaneGuard is worse than 50% of the classes in the PHB1.

Edit toward Darwin: Again as far as I can tell none of the page space for the BaneGuard is bad. Its "horribly overpowered" possibly because I don't see powers that are largely a waste of space say... like the paladin's utility ability to gain a +4 to diplomacy once a day.

Double Edit: Also see "Fluff I don't care about"

[Piell]

Reasons why Bane Guard is terribly designed:

1) It has three main stats - or, as Trollman has claimed, three builds with three different builds with three different main stats. This is poor design, since it means that 1/3 to 2/3 (depending on how the stats are aligned of a particular character) of powers are instantly going to be ignored. The Warlock, considered the most poorly designed PHB class, only has two main stats and it still has problems.

2) Shadow Warrior - adding charisma to hit is extremely overpowered - it's probably +4 or +5 at first level, and increasing gets higher. A high level bane guard with Shadow Warrior will literally always hit.

3) Cruel Overlord - also incredibly powerful. It's far more powerful than even the original Orb of Imposition, which has been greatly nerfed. A high level bane guard with Cruel Overlord means enemies will literally never be able to save, which greatly throws off balance of basically every power with a save.

4) Threatening Reach is incredibly powerful, as is what is basically Heavy Blade Opportunity. Combined, they are insane. A bane guard with a reach weapon and the Mole's Grasp power can never be approached in one turn, since if you try to move adjacent to him you will get immobilized.

5) Gaining extra at-wills for no apparent reason is bad design.

6) The marking mechanic, as previously mentioned, doesn't actually work since it is an immediate action. Assuming it is a minor action instead, it's still poorly designed. There is no reason for enemy you have marked to attack you instead of someone else, aside from the -2 to hit - they will take the same damage and have the same penalty to damage. You don't "draw fire" at all.

7) Many of the bane guard powers attack a secondary defense rather than AC, but are weapon powers. This means they are at +2/+3 to hit compared to any other class, and especially when combined with Shadow Warrior means bane guards basically never miss. A 14th level bane guard could easily have a +3 proficiency weapon and +7 to charisma - if a normal class would hit on a 10, he will always hit.

8) I could go through all the powers explaining why many of them are terrible, but I'll just stick to a few of the first level powers. Mole's Grasp, as previously mentioned, means nobody can ever move or charge up to you. Undercut can also be used to do the same thing. Simple trick, when combined with the save penalty, means you have a permanent blind at higher levels. As minor actions, most of the encounter powers conflict with the marking ability. Stifling Grasp means a permanent stun at higher levels.

[Doom]

It really seems like most of those are "as bad as official rules" types complaints, eh?

[Darwinism]

How about a challenge to you. Point out how the BaneGuard is worse than 50% of the classes in the PHB1.

It's worse than all of them; it's got a pre-Paragon power that deals 7W damage (as a Defender hahaha), it's got powers that force enemies to surrender if they're bloodied, or join your team if you've subdued them, it has a power to make anything you've marked lose all it's HP, and that was from a brief skimming of the power.

How do you defend this shit?

edit: hahaha it has an at-will that lets you spend a surge and get surge value + Constitution score oh man this class is so hilarious

[Roxolan]

How about a challenge to you. Point out how the BaneGuard is worse than 50% of the classes in the PHB1.

That would be cheating, it'd just make your challenge easier.

But here, I'll give you a hint:

Simple Trick
Bane Guard Attack 1
It's not complicated, but it hurts like hell.
Usage::Encounter ✦ Shadow, Weapon
Action Type::Minor Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature you have Marked.
Attack: Constitution Vs. Will
Hit: Target is Blinded (save ends).

I can think of, oh, four things wrong with this power. That's pretty standard for a BG encounter power.