What if Evocation didn't suck?

[JonSetanta]

On fahrenheit vs celcius: which was D&D written in, beotch? Yeah. Thought so.

On destroying ecosystems: in some cases, this might be desirable.. but I'd prefer a massive Sonic (destroy trees, rocks easily) and Fire (destroy most everything else) Evocation spell to do a more specialized job.
Also, anyone know of a spell that can create an instant forest? Like... a gigantic tropical rainforest? I don't mean Genesis, but more like a massive Druid spell or Wiz/Sorc that's instant, massive area, and versatile.
Would that be Conjuration (Creation), Transmutation, or something else?

[User3]

Epic spells, and as such garbage, but maybe workable: verdigris and verdigris tsunami.

[User3]

1177548080[/unixtime]]On fahrenheit vs celcius: which was D&D written in, beotch? Yeah. Thought so.

On destroying ecosystems: in some cases, this might be desirable.. but I'd prefer a massive Sonic (destroy trees, rocks easily) and Fire (destroy most everything else) Evocation spell to do a more specialized job.
Also, anyone know of a spell that can create an instant forest? Like... a gigantic tropical rainforest? I don't mean Genesis, but more like a massive Druid spell or Wiz/Sorc that's instant, massive area, and versatile.
Would that be Conjuration (Creation), Transmutation, or something else?

Sounds like Transmutation (Unless you really want to say you pulled them all from somewhere else, and that's weird). I suppose it could be Conjuration (Creation). Probably depends on the flavor you want.

I'm working my way through the schools at present - sounds like a fun 9th level spell - i'll throw something in like it.

[Catharz]

1177549277[/unixtime]]Epic spells, and as such garbage, but maybe workable: verdigris and verdigris tsunami.

Wow. An epic-level fireball with a 1-minute casting time. I'm not impressed.

Maybe if you added a mechanical entanglement effect it would be worth using as a 3rd or 4th-level spell. The second one is more impressive, but the fact that all it does is deal damage despite the flavor makes me a sad panda.

[Brobdingnagian]

...

I want to cry, but...

There aren't enough tears...

[Draco_Argentum]

The reason its a crap spell is its using the epic casting rules to try make a normal spell. Anything good requires tomfoolery. Also its DD.

[MrWaeseL]

Damn I forgot how awful the epic spells are.

[bitnine]

1177563717[/unixtime]]Wow. An epic-level fireball with a 1-minute casting time. I'm not impressed.

You don't get it, it's an epic level fireball that lowers property values in a small area. The spell isn't meant to be about the damage, but for the real-estate savvy wizard who's trying to play the market. He can even use the overgrowth to negotiate a lower buy price and then just wait a day instead of hiring someone for lot clearing!

Okay, maybe not. But at least I tried to look for a light in which that spell didn't suck walnuts.

[tzor]

1177548080[/unixtime]]On fahrenheit vs celcius: which was D&D written in, beotch?

Réaumur! It's got to be Réaumur!

(Paid for by the "We love Réaumur" temperature scale fan club; life doesn't begin, and water doesn't boil until you're 80!)

Edit: Freud strikes again, it's life doesn't begin not live doesn't begin.

[User3]

OK, I'm the guy who made you cry so much linking - gasp - epic spells. When I said they could be workable, I meant something like: verdigris tsunami - 1 standard action, entangles people in the area. XP - what's that? Your thoughts?

[Brobdingnagian]

Make it a non-epic spell and sure.

[User3]

Yeah, I meant level 9 (if that's really needed, to be honest).

[MrWaeseL]

A mile-wide 10d6 damage plus entangle? That's like level 5, tops. Any range over the width of the battlefield is pretty much unnecessary, anyway.

[User3]

Waesel, verdigris tsunami deals 40d6. Which level does it look like?

[Cielingcat]

I dunno, maybe 9? Could be 8, though.

[Catharz]

1177605604[/unixtime]]OK, I'm the guy who made you cry so much linking - gasp - epic spells. When I said they could be workable, I meant something like: verdigris tsunami - 1 standard action, entangles people in the area. XP - what's that? Your thoughts?

IMO spells which deal damage in areas of over 500' shouldn't be standard actions to use. I know there are already plenty of violators, and it isn't much of a balance issue. My point is that anything which operates on a greater-than-tactical scale is a story effect rather than a combat effect. You can use it as a combat effect ('I know there are enemies within the 5-mile radius around me, so I'm going to hit them with an Xd6 attack every 10 minutes'), but mainly it's just 'all the squirrels, bugs, birds, and unnamed characters will die unless the players stop me in the next 10 minutes.'



That said, I can totally see a number of spells working off the 'waves of green' spells. Obviously it's druid flavored, but you could flavor it necromancer (hands burst from the ground and grab at you), conjurer (gate the plane of Ooze, earth, ice, whatever), or psionist (astral spooge) too

[User3]

Catharz, this one of the high-level spells least threatening to a setting; and, anyway, if someone tries to spam this at any place vaguely important, I think you'd either: a) admit they're better than everyone else, or b) make the really powerful people appear fast (don't try casting it in Sigil, for example); but maybe making its casting take a round makes things saner - besides, hurting things from so far away can have a definite combat utility, or, better, pre-combat utility.

[User3]

So i've been looking at the PHB spells, and there are some spells in really weird places. How would people feel about the following being evocation:

Mage Armor: Its a fricking force effect. Virtually every other force effect is Evocation.

Shield: Ditto.

Haste: You could argue for this to be in a couple places, but you *aren't actually transmuting anything*, so it certainly doesn't belong there. I could see it being in Enchantment, Evocation, or even Conjuration (though that would be weird, but explainable). For evocation - you're evoking time, duh.

Slow: Ditto

Timestop: I'd say ditto, except this should totally get the axe. This spell is too good to live.

[bitnine]

1177693968[/unixtime]]So i've been looking at the PHB spells, and there are some spells in really weird places. How would people feel about the following being evocation:

Hell, I'd go one step further. So many schools get damaging spells. After all, apparently everyone needs to be able to deal at least some damage with spells, even if they give up evocation. I say that for every such spell, a spell gets placed into evocation that contains an effect from the former's school. A dispel magic that does damage somehow? Great, time for a dispelling fireball. After all, that real thing is that people who specialize in evocation need to be able to do other stuff, especially given that dealing damage isn't even a particularly good idea. So I say that go with the elemental control stuff. Mage Armor? I dunno, a suit of morphic ice that leaves the wearer unhindered sounds like a good deal. Like the following spell. It sort of deals damage and maybe I'm a bearhugging gish, but the damage is probably just a ruse so I can turn arrows to vapor and swords to slag.

Blazing Soul
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 round/level
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Thick flames emanate from your body. These flames emanate all energy outward, neither hurting nor hindering you in any way. You gain concealment, as well as Fire and Cold resistance 20 as the flames absorb or negate heat and cold.

Creatures or objects within your square, apart from those worn or carried, take 1d6 fire damage/level (maximum 20d6). They take this damage every each round at the start of your turn and when entering your square, no more than once each round. Creatures attacking with handheld or natural weapons take half this damage. If this damage should destroy an object such as a weapon or projectile about to strike you, its remains are deflected harmlessly.

[Catharz]

1177693968[/unixtime]]So i've been looking at the PHB spells, and there are some spells in really weird places. How would people feel about the following being evocation:

Mage Armor: Its a fricking force effect. Virtually every other force effect is Evocation.

Shield: Ditto.

Haste: You could argue for this to be in a couple places, but you *aren't actually transmuting anything*, so it certainly doesn't belong there. I could see it being in Enchantment, Evocation, or even Conjuration (though that would be weird, but explainable). For evocation - you're evoking time, duh.

Slow: Ditto

Timestop: I'd say ditto, except this should totally get the axe. This spell is too good to live.

School is great as a discriptor for spells but terrible as a division. Mage armor is a great example: it's an abjuration, conjuration, and an evocation. Light could plausibly be illusion, evocation, transmutation, or even conjuration. Darkness could be illusion, evocation, or necromancy. Contact other plane could be divination, conjuration, or even necromancy.

You can come up with many logical (though arbitrary) sets of divisions for spells (psionics almost does it), but school isn't one of them. Schools are themes, just like spheres. A necromancer does spooky damage, an evoker does energy damage, a conjurer does elemental damage...


Conjuration/Summoning was once purely focused on caliing 'creatures' and 'objects' from other places, while Evocation/Invocation was all about channeling energy (light, darkness, fire, force, etc).

Then some smart guy said 'hey, I can conjure water, why not fire?' The rest is history.


I guess my point is, the schools would need some major reorganization for any logical scheme to work.

[Brobdingnagian]

Also, I believe this has already been discussed at some point in the past, but I felt it needed restating in this thread.

Healing spells should be Necromancy, or possibly Evocation. Conjuration for healing is dumb.

[Judging__Eagle]

Yeah, in Tome of Necromancy.

Healing being Conjuration is a 3.5 thing. Even in AD&D healing was part of the necromancy school of magic.

[JonSetanta]

Astral spooge... heheheeeee

And thanks, Squirreloid.

IMHO all Epic magic should be reduced to workable spells in the 1-9 spectrum, leaning more towards upper end, with delayed cast time (10 minutes+)/ special costs and requirements/ multiple casters/ environmental conditions/ lessened duration and/or effect from the Epic versions.
It's possible with more 'tomfoolery'. Maybe a stretch, but possible.

Then all post-20 spell slots can be better spent on thing like... more metamagic.
Sure, a Fireball is nothing at Epic levels, but how about FIVE OR MORE 20d6+ Fireballs cast in a single round? There are ways. "Enough splatbooks", enough of "the right feats", and it's possible. Or just make houserules for more spells-per-round, like D&D mages are meant to be able to do; 3.0 Haste?

Nothing to scoff at, I assure you.

[Brobdingnagian]

There's a problem with epic spellcasting, though; it assumes D&D is playable past 20th level. Hell, it's not even seriously playable past 15th.

[MrWaeseL]

A necromancer does spooky damage, an evoker does energy damage, a conjurer does elemental damage...

What's the difference between energy and elemental damage?