Sean K Reynolds: Feat Point System: Does it work?(DND, 3.5E)

[Ikeren]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/m ... ystem.html

My DM wants to use this. I immediately notice some awful logic (where weapon specialization, weapon focus, and great fortitude are used as the benchmark of a normal feat), but does anyone have anything better to illustrate how truly awful it is than "Nobody willingly takes weapon focus. Using it as your benchmark for costs is stupid"?

[Maxus]

Natural spell is listed at 5 points.

That's right, the feat that lets a druid cast spells while he bites you in the brain as a bear is only 5 points.

[Daztur]

Seems to just include core stuff, which'd either limit you to a core-only game or require lots and lots of GM headaches. But if you're limited to core-only, then after a while what other feats are you going to take?

But still, thinking that Improved Trip is worse than Weapon Focus seems a bit stupid and having extra fiddly shit balanced around stupid seems like a waste of time.

Edit: as Maxus point out, Natural Spell is only 5, dear god any system that says that Natural Spell is worse than weapon focus isn't even worth the time rebutting. Hmmm, and he helped write Savage Species. That explains a great deal about Savage Species.

[Leress]

Fuck SKR.

That is all.

Pretty much everything on his site is bad. Hell, on that page he pretty much puts a feat as a benchmark that breaks one of his rules.

All that remains are setting certain "benchmark" feats --feats which are considered the appropriate power level for their 1-featcost (10 feat points in this system) and by which we can use to evaluate the cost of other feats (much like how magic missile is a benchmark for spells because it's the best 1st-level spell, and how fireball is your typical 3rd-level area attack spell, etc.) .

This is how he makes the "balance" for this system.

[Jilocasin]

If pointing out that all the metamagic feats are only 5 points, augment summoning is 7, and as was said, natural spell is only 5 isn't enough to show how that system sucks balls I'm not sure what could convince your MC.

[Prak]

So, basically, while the fighter is picking up, say, Great Fortitude, the druid gets to pick up both Natural Spell and Extend Spell.

Yeah, this is a great plan...

[Username17]

I genuinely don't know what the point of that system was supposed to be. If you can't accurately judge how good a feat is supposed to be when they are all worth the same amount, how could you expect to balance them to a system where you needed to figure out fractional values?

It isn't like you're even expected to spend all of your points either. You get 10 points every three levels, and most things cost about 8. An average character is't going to see any difference from all this fucking accounting until level 12.

And lest we get too caught up in the theoretics of this catastrofuck, the specifics are batshit insane. Weapon Fucking Focus, the feat which is itself a shorthand for "a wasted feat slot" is taken to somehow be the gold standard against which things are measured? If that were really true, how could you possibly conclude that every feat except Run and Combat Casting were anything other than grossly overpowered? What kind of drugs would you need to take to conclude that the most powerful caster feats should come at double speed?

-Username17

[Maxus]

I genuinely don't know what the point of that system was supposed to be.

I could see the basic idea as a decent way to even up the melee/caster divide. I mean, if a metamagic is generally worth 10, and, say, you had feats like Weapon Focus and Specialization worth 2 points a pop.

It -could- hypothetically let the martial characters get more depth in an area, or more general breadth (branching into archery would be less of a pain).

You'd still have to do the accounting for all those feats, though.

[Ikeren]

Man I love you guys. I laugh out loud reading so many of these posts. The acerbic wit, the vitrolic hatred of stupidity. I'm just going to link the DM to this thread.

Let's look at some by-the-numbers breakdown.

Augment Summoning: Only 7 points
Metamagic Empower: 5 points
Enlarge spell: 5 points
Extend Spell: 5 points
Spell Focus, Spell Penetration: 7/8 points, Greater versions 7/8
Heighten Spell: 5 points
Maximize spell: 5 points
Quicken spell: 5 points
Crafting feats: Cheaper in general; 10/7/9/10/10/7/9/10
Improved Counterspell: 7 points
Improved Initiative: 8 points
Average: 154/ 21 feats = 7.3 (inflated by some crummy item creation feats (scribe scroll = 10, yeah, sounds bout right) (are there other feats casters would take in core I'm missing?)

I'm not entirely sure what other feats a caster would take in core.
Let's look at the good core melee feats for comparison:

Combat Expertise: 9 points
Improved Trip: 8 points
Combat Reflexes: 7 points
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: 9 points
Improved Initiative: 8 points
Power attack: 10 points.
Average: 51/6 = 8.5 points.
(are there other good feats melees would take in core I'm missing?)

Archery:
Point Blank Shot: 9 points
Precise Shot: 10 points.
Rapid Shot: 11
Manyshot: 12
Improved Precise Shot: 8 points
Average: 50/5 = 10 points.
(are there other good feats archers would take in core I'm missing?)

TWF:
TWF: 11 points
ITWF: 10 points
GTWF: 10 points
31/3 = 10.33 points.
(are there other good feats TWFers would take in core I'm missing?)

[Maxus]

I'm just pointing out that if, say, I went out of my mind and -wanted- to ruin a DM's game and the DM was using this?

I'd be a druid or a wizard and take two metamagic feats every chance I got.

Honestly, most of the combat-related feats should be a mix of 3's and 4's. By most, I mean "All of them except for Improved Trip, which could be a 6 at a stretch"

[K]

SKR.... it takes a certain kind of talent to use 4000 words to produce something worthless.

[Bobikus]

In what fucking backwards universe is Combat Casting twice as valuable as Quicken Spell and Natural Spell?

much like how magic missile is a benchmark for spells because it's the best 1st-level spell

This made my brain hurt. I need to go get some fucking Tylenol now.

[Maxus]

Use Advil instead.

Tylenol just screws up your liver. Only without getting you drunk like alcohol does.

[Bobikus]

Use Advil instead.

Tylenol just screws up your liver. Only without getting you drunk like alcohol does.

Good point. The alcohol does enough to my liver as it is, it doesn't need to take another one for the team.

[Daztur]

In what fucking backwards universe is Combat Casting twice as valuable as Quicken Spell and Natural Spell?

much like how magic missile is a benchmark for spells because it's the best 1st-level spell

This made my brain hurt. I need to go get some fucking Tylenol now.

The more I look at it, the more it seems like it's like a fractal of stupid, the main idea is idiotic but the closer you look, the more you realize that each individual part is as stupid as the whole.

Magic missile? Seriously?

[Shazbot79]

Isn't SKR the guy who used to provide rules clarifications on the WotC board?

And here's a follow up question:

Has he ever even PLAYED 3rd Edition?

[Psychic Robot]

Does it work?

Look at the author and the answer will be clear.

[Juton]

I skipped the description and went straight to the list, I thought the costs where supposed to be inverted. That's the only logical way Animal Affinity (9 pts) should cost more than Quicken (5 pts). I wonder if you changed the feat price to 13-(its listed cost) if the system can even begin to work.

[Starmaker]

In what fucking backwards universe is Combat Casting twice as valuable as Quicken Spell and Natural Spell?

In the same fucking backwards universe where an extra arrow is worth half again as much as a whole 'nother dude. Manyshot = 12 pts, Leadership = 8 pts.

[Ice9]

Wait ... Toughness is better than Natural Spell?! Toughness?! In fact, it's better than all the metamagic feats. And he concludes that if Toughness gave a whole five hp, it would be among the best feats out there. I have to conclude the Improved Toughness would have a feat cost of 20+, if he included it. Or maybe it would be 5 points, who the hell knows?

Ah, and I see that Leadership is just an 8, obviously not as good as powerhouse feats like Skill Focus and 5-hp Toughness.

... This is just mind-boggling levels of stupid.

[Darth Rabbitt]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[cthulhudarren]

Wow, lets have the melee classes suck even more!

[RobbyPants]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Laugh. You'll feel better.

[Kaelik]

So can you spend feat points whenever you have them, and save them up? I mean, you have to be able to save, because things cost 8 points, and that`s treated differently than 10, but I was always thinking Druids are so underpowered at level 5 because they can only cast spells and turn into a bear, but not cast spells while a bear. Would be nice if they could do both right at 5, instead of having to wait. Druids really needed that buff.

[RobbyPants]

Maybe you can only spend them on levels when you'd normally be able to get a feat. Who knows? Given everything else I've read, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he didn't even consider things like this.