Thoughts on wiki Tome Ranger

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:57 pm

Recent Edits wrote:After hearing critique on The Gaming Den and some deliberations with some Tome-knowledgeable persons (most notable Tarkisflux), I have made some edits to this class that I hope are to the liking of viewers. These have included the changing of certain Favored Enemy benefits, the moving of the Big Game Hunter class feature to the Major benefit for Favored Enemy (animal), and a key change to the Combat Style class features (including removing the level 16 bonus feat and restricting the choice of what Combat feats could be taken to those that were more weapons-oriented. This makes the Combat Style class feature gained at all the same levels as the normal ranger, while also still covering all the archtypical ranger types.

I'm fairly happy with just about all of the Favored Enemy benefits at this point, but it anyone has any suggestions for how to improve them I'm willing to listen. - TG Cid 02:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Bobikus · Post by **Bobikus** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Ok nevermind, Big Game Hunter is still in, being moved doesn't change much.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:05 pm

It certainly changes quite a bit -- now it's something you have to specifically choose (and give up something else) for.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:32 am

Combat styles were restricted and fewer are handed out, big game hunter got moved into the animal favored enemy bonus (and moved up a level in acquisition) so it's no longer a straight powerup, and there was a shuffling and adjusting of other favored enemy abilities.

Edit: The changes are a minor reduction, and some things (like the SR) appear at a more reasonable level. It's definitely a later tome style work though, and if you thought it was power-creepy before these changes probably aren't going to change your mind much. I don't see much of a problem putting him in with a druid or soulborn though.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:37 pm

1) You ranger is tagged as Boolean's in the Community collection thread.

2) Your ranger is... okay.

I mean, so you are a warrior, and you get one of some stuff, until you get two of some stuff.

Stuff includes a swarm, or a minion, or a natural attack set up plus some other benefit for combat, or some defenses, or some perception, or some movement stuff, or some save or sucks.

So yeah... It's not bad. It's not terribly interesting to me, but it's fine. Honestly, I would consider that to be the Tome Ranger over any other choice, but it's a ten level class where it really should be a 20 level class with some greater aspects or something, like Monk styles.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm

Kaelik wrote:1) You ranger is tagged as Boolean's in the Community collection thread.

They're the same person. Collection thread probably needs to update that if the person who made it is around.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:21 pm

Quantumboost wrote:
Kaelik wrote:1) You ranger is tagged as Boolean's in the Community collection thread.
They're the same person. Collection thread probably needs to update that if the person who made it is around.

Thinks make more sense now.

Also, erik/clickml too. Was wondering why people disappeared.

Did Bigode name change too?

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:28 pm

Kaelik wrote:Did Bigode name change too?

Bigode did not name change, he just stopped posting here. I don't remember the exact reasons why anymore.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:51 pm

TarkisFlux wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Did Bigode name change too?
Bigode did not name change, he just stopped posting here. I don't remember the exact reasons why anymore.

The reason is that we're a bunch of assholes, and we don't provide good enough gaming info to make up for that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:39 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
TarkisFlux wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Did Bigode name change too?
Bigode did not name change, he just stopped posting here. I don't remember the exact reasons why anymore.
The reason is that we're a bunch of assholes, and we don't provide good enough gaming info to make up for that.

Weird, seeing as I recall that he liked me.

cthulhudarren · Post by **cthulhudarren** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:43 pm

How well have the Tome classes been play tested against casters? My DM is outraged at the power level of the Tome martial classes and can't be made to see why they need a power up.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:17 pm

I think it's more of a Same Game Test mentality. It's kind of hard to run them side by side and measure power. The people who win initiative might have a tendency to look better than others, for example.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:36 pm

Tome classes have been extensively tested compared with casters.

It`s ... tricky.

So tome monks and knights fit their roles quite well. Tome fighters/barbarians/samurais are too powerful. In combat, they completely destroy anything even close to cr unless it is a wizard, cleric, or other Tome martial.

So it depends. If you low ball the number optimization of those three tome martials, or use the other two, they can be right on par in comat with optimized but not overly cheesy casters.

For example, a Tome fighter going full power is going to be better than any none DMM Persist Cleric. So you choices as a cleric are:

1) be a useless bandaid cleric that uses nothing but dispel magic in combat, and the uses wands of restoration and lesser vigor outside of combat.

2) build a really good caster cleric and play it absurdly well. FYI, no one who has ever posted on WotC char op or BG knows how to do this. If you donLt already know it, just pick another option.

3) Use DMM Persist

4) Be a necromancer Cleric. compatible with any other option.

Wizards that straight BC and debuff and are really good at it can keep up fine with Tome martials in combat. But then Clerics and Wizards are mostly better outside combat.

Bottom line it`s a tough choice and really hard to balance well, but still easier than regular 3.5 to do so.

PS. anyone thinking about using Tome Martials should look at the Soldier of Franks. Its a great class, and should really be a mandatory read for anyone trying to find a better fighter.

VladtheLad · Post by **VladtheLad** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:41 pm

How about using Tome classes without tome feats?

I know normal feats suck balls, but it would go a long way into macking tome warrior classes weaker.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:51 pm

Again, what`s the balance point. Wizards are still literally infinity times better than Tome fighters with Tome feats because they can Planar Bind an army to murder the Fighter in his sleep . then raise him as a Dread Warrior and use him + Wizard against any Tome fighters he faces.

Yes, it is objectively true that Tome fighters without Tome feats are weaker than with. How much weaker? The right amount of weaker? I can`t tell you without knowing what everyone else in the party is going to look like and be doing, and what types of things they are fighting. Me personally? I let people play Tome fighters with Tome feats as is in my games, though I recommend soldier, because I know that I can challenge that appropriately based on how I structure encounters and how things usually go down.

YMMV.

Bobikus · Post by **Bobikus** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:08 pm

Is the Soldier of Franks linked here on the site or is it in one of the tomes?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 am

Bobikus wrote:Is the Soldier of Franks linked here on the site or is it in one of the tomes?

Here

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50 ... highlight=

Bobikus · Post by **Bobikus** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:22 am

Maybe I'll have to try that out too sometime, since apparently I auto-matically win the game when I hit level 20.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:58 am

They started doing that with most Tome classes a couple of years ago. I think the Stormlord even gets you a girlfriend at level 20, or a new one, free of charge if you already have one.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:02 am

RobbyPants wrote:They started doing that with most Tome classes a couple of years ago. I think the Stormlord even gets you a girlfriend at level 20, or a new one, free of charge if you already have one.

Actually, you have to go get it yourself.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:03 am

Bobikus wrote:Maybe I'll have to try that out too sometime, since apparently I auto-matically win the game when I hit level 20.

That comes standard with Tome classes. Don't leave home without it.

EDIT: Huh, two other posts in between when I loaded the page to read it and when I made my post.

Bobikus · Post by **Bobikus** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:38 am

Kaelik wrote: Tome fighters/barbarians/samurais are too powerful.

Yeah, these three look kind of ridiculous when you consider that they don't really need to worry about what spells to prepare or what PrC combination to work with. Just learn the obvious good feats for your style and use the great abilities they get. Wouldn't be hard for them to be overpowered in a game where the casters aren't optimizing themselves a lot too or don't really know the game well enough to do so.

Thing that really bugs me combat wise about those tome classes is that Barbarian ability to have a selective AMF.

VladtheLad · Post by **VladtheLad** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:44 am

Kaelik wrote:Again, what`s the balance point. Wizards are still literally infinity times better than Tome fighters with Tome feats because they can Planar Bind an army to murder the Fighter in his sleep . then raise him as a Dread Warrior and use him + Wizard against any Tome fighters he faces.

Yes, it is objectively true that Tome fighters without Tome feats are weaker than with. How much weaker? The right amount of weaker? I can`t tell you without knowing what everyone else in the party is going to look like and be doing, and what types of things they are fighting. Me personally? I let people play Tome fighters with Tome feats as is in my games, though I recommend soldier, because I know that I can challenge that appropriately based on how I structure encounters and how things usually go down.

YMMV.

True that.

I suppose everyones game is different.

That said things like infi-planar binding, celerity, liberal use of persistent divine metamagic and planar shepherds tend to be just about too destructive for most games (mine at least) and I think they shouldn't be used as a benchmark.
Not too mention simularcumed efreeti, gate and shapeshift tricks.

But doesn't tome fix some of these stuff? Like planar binding, cleric/druid spells known and polymorph tricks?

Wouldn't a tome warrior without tome feats fit nicely in such a game?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:39 pm

VladtheLad wrote:True that.

I suppose everyones game is different.

That said things like infi-planar binding, celerity, liberal use of persistent divine metamagic and planar shepherds tend to be just about too destructive for most games (mine at least) and I think they shouldn't be used as a benchmark.
Not too mention simularcumed efreeti, gate and shapeshift tricks.

But doesn't tome fix some of these stuff? Like planar binding, cleric/druid spells known and polymorph tricks?

Wouldn't a tome warrior without tome feats fit nicely in such a game?

How many times are you going to make me repeat the same thing?

What is the balance point?

My Tome Errata of metamagic feats nerfs DMM Persist. Tome itself nerfs Planar Binding, and sort of polymorph. Nothing yet nerfs Cleric/Druid spells known, which is actually fine, because they don't really need it. Planar Shepard is just trash, and Celerity is not as good as people claim it is, don't believe the hype.

All that said, Tome martials with Tome fighter feats can fit nicely in that game. Depending on the skill of the various players and the skill and style of the MC.

VladtheLad · Post by **VladtheLad** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:41 pm

Point taken.

Regarding Druid/Cleric spells known I am talking about Dungeonomicon, the Maginomicon part, "Druids and Clerics get broken with supplements". Says you choose one spell to know beyond those in the core every level. You can find others, but you don't have access to every druid/cleric spell published.

I also like the soldier, though the 8th level strike that lets you turn anything not immune to polymorph to mice scares the shit out of me.