What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

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Lago PARANOIA
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What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

This is just a personal preference of mine. I'm not trying to state my opinion as fact or anything like I normally do, I'm just curious on what you think is an appropriate amount of complexity for a non-beginner to have with their characters.

Me, personally?

Base Statistics
Hit points should be in the double-digits even at maximum level. I'd much rather have a nearly-fixed hit point system adjusted for size personally, but I find scaling hit points acceptable if pathetic as long as the ceiling is kept low. Defense and attack scores shouldn't go higher than 30-35 on a d20 scale. I'd love to implement a Shadowrun-ish dice pool system, but I'm afraid that D&D scales too much to keep the dice pools at an acceptable level. As far as attributes go, I say still keep them in the game but they should be kept at the mostly 'useless' level. I mean even more useless than in 2E D&D. They affect things like skills, attribute rolls, etc.. Combat and power statistics use a totally different metric, meaning that a level 9 Fighter little girl with an 8 in strength is still going to do just as well in battle as a level 9 Fighter bulked-out orc with a 20 in strength.

Levels
I prefer a three-tiered approach. With ACTUAL tiers, not the 4E bullshit stuff. Something like:
Sub-Levels: This works exactly like the Black Forest system Frank has been kicking around. Sub-level 5 puts you at the level of a small child, Sub level 1 puts you at Squire-about-to-graduate-into-paladin. Past Level S1, you graduate into a full-fledged adventurer. Everything gets renormalized at this point and you only carry a few things over from your Sub-Levels (such as weapon specialty/stat placement). Pretty much the only real continuity you have is your background.

Levels: This works exactly like we've come to expect from D&D. I personally don't think that there should be more than twenty levels and I'm sympathetic to arguments that it should be shorter, like 10-15 levels. But you know how grognards get at bullshit minor changes, so keep it at twenty I suppose.

Epic Levels: At this point in the game, D&D resembles more of a wargame than squad-based combat. Everything gets renormalized again, though you're allowed to carry more things from 'regular' levels to 'epic' levels than sublevels to regular levels. You as the 1st-level Epic Paladin command entire paladin legions all riding silver and gold dragons. Epic levels end at level 10, when you're the overdeity who can make the Lady of Pain and Lord Yahweh suck your juicy balls. I'm not proposing anything specific, that would be an entirely new thread and in fact would be mostly incompatible with the rest of this list... just... you know, fan wanking. :cry:
Race
Race should be a pretty big deal at lower levels, but as time goes on it matters less and less. By the 1/3rd mark of the game, most mundane races like trolls and drow shouldn't have much of a functional difference between humans and dwarves. Racial stuff is almost completely internal to the race itself; there won't be such a thing as racial class powers, feats, backgrounds, whatnot. I'm still on the fence about racial equipment. While I think it's acceptable for a level 1 orc fighter to generically bash heads better than a level 1 elf fighter, at level 5 (of 20) it's stupid.

Skills
As far as skills go, I favor a three-tiered system.
A) All characters have a background profession(s) like Gambler, Farmer, Criminal, etc.. The more generically useful background professions will have a higher rating and you can collect more of them (so a Mathematician Innkeeper Gardener is worth about as much as Ninja). If you can find a skill where your background profession would help out, such as using your Blacksmith skill to look for a weakness in the iron bars, you can try to convince your DM to let you use it. This is explicitly supposed to only be a couple of steps up for MTP and is supposed to be a 'creativity' reward. Both players and DMs are told to balance their characters/adventures on the assumption that their background professions don't work--it's just a nice bonus to have.

B) The second tier of skills will be the dicepool system. Skill ranks are intentionally kept pretty low. Mostly because the second tier is supposed to be intentionally limited and having numbers max out at 12-13 keeps people from trying to shoehorn in skills at high levels. But anyway they'll work pretty much like Shadowrun. Skills in the game have a soft cap to them; after a certain point in the game people just don't get skill-boosting stuff anymore. We'll also have to put in a note about skills just plain not being useful past a certain point and discouraging players from investing or relying on them.

C) The final part of the skill system, which comes after a certain level of play, is the skill talent system. All that bullshit about making a DC 120 check to balance on a cloud or doing algebra to determine how well someone can swim in full plate goes away. Fantastical stuff from now on is done by skill talents. As in rather than upping up your Climb skill, you take the Athletic Mastery skill talent which lets you run up vertical surfaces, do double jumps, swim for an unlimited amount of time, etc.. Athletic Mastery 2 lets you balance on water, do infinite double jumps, and walk on ceilings as easily as on the ground. People are still allowed to use their background and skill points to solve challenges, but challenges from here on out are generically built on the assumption of someone having Feat Talents. If people are that in love with rolling I suppose that you could have an internal rolling mechanic as well. Maybe having some skill DCs marked 'Epic' and only people with the appropriate Feat Talents being allowed to make skill check rolls on it (roll Athletics to see if you can cling to the side of a fissure while a 12.0 Earthquake rumbles and you're pelted with lava). I'd rather retire skills altogether personally.
Equipment
I think the maximum amount of magical gear an individual player should have is 4 distinct items. But none of that '+1 Flaming Sword' shit; at the bare minimum magical items should be stuff like Holy Avengers. Magical gear should be completely random and the combat math should flat-out assume that parties don't have any magical items. Party items like flying carpets and immovable rods should be at around the level of 1 item per player. I'm okay with some magical gear being buyable or craftable (that way you could have Sentai-style parties where everyone had color-coded elemental armor), but the really good stuff should be random.

Action Points/Edge
Action points are dumb. They never have their intended effect of turning around a failing combat in a pinch and that's because it's generally more efficient to use them for a nova against a perceived difficult encounter. So fuck that. Characters should have Shadowrun-style Edge where you buy a reroll or extra points on the d20 roll after the fact.

Powers
D&D should, at least for the non-beginners, use Winds of Fate. No question. What should be the minimum and maximum size of the WoF matrix? I think it should start out at about 2x4 and they should be generically loaded so that people not interested in complexity would have access to a row of maneuvers that could cover a wide variety of situations (you could have them themed such as 'Medium Fire Blasting' or 'Unleash Rage which had things like Whirlwind Attack, Power Throw, etc.'), but also advanced players could pick-and-mix how they felt like. Forcing someone to always have a ranged attack is useful but it's also kind of dumb if the player doesn't actually want to have those attacks--though it should be emphasized that if a player fucks up at that point it's their own fault. The maximum size should be something like 6x6. I think that non-martial players should have a few 'extra' manuevers that they don't put into their WoF grid so that they can swap things around a bit if they don't like the feel of what they currently have.

Players should also have things like bullshit basic attacks, too--only we'll avoid the 4E pitfalls and go out of our way to make them the inferior option rather than allowing players to pump them up so that they're better than powers.

Multiclassing
I'm a huge fan of multiclassing. Unfortunately, I was very unsatisfied with the way 4E and 3E D&D did theirs. 4E's failings are obvious, so let's talk about 3E's for a brief bit.
I think the biggest problem with 3E's was that there was just too much goddamn granularity. I mean, really, what's the difference between a Warblade 6 / Fighter 4 and a Fighter 5 / Warblade 5? Not a whole fucken lot. So in case you didn't read my previous thread on multiclassing, here's how this should go:

All characters are divided into three classes: A Main Class, A Subclass, and a Minor Class. The Main class gives you about 50% of your powers and abilities, the Subclass gives you about 35%, and the Minor Class gives about 15% of them. In order to prevent bullshit like a Fighter 10 / Wizard 1 having access to just 1st level spells, the class features a Main Class/Subclass/Minor Class hands out are level appropriate. You can choose to make it so that each class division hands out unique powers or you can make it so that the class division tells you how many times you can dip into a list (such that a Main Class chooses three fighter abilities, while a Minor Class only gets to choose one) or you can do a combination. I recommend doing a combination to make classes feel more different but also to save on space. What you picked for your MSM classes also determines how many powers you can put from your class onto your WoF matrix. So for a 2x3 matrix, a Fighter/Wizard/Cleric can make, say, 3 powers come from Fighter, 2 come from wizard, and 1 come from cleric.

If you want to be single-classed, make all of your Main/Sub/Minor classes the same class.
Class Features
Personally, I found 3E and 4E's front-loading of class features extremely unsastisfying. So I strongly believe that at certain level breakpoints people should get more class features.

Feats
I believe that we should use the Tome System of feats. Meaning that all feats start off generically equal in usefulness, they just 'power up' according to your level at certain breakpoints. Feats that do bullshit things like '+1 to your attack' should be fucking banned. But since feats will do a lot more and they will also level up, the amount of feats that people get should be smaller. I think handing out feats at levels 1, 2, 7, 12, and 17 (for a twenty-level system) should be sufficient.

Narrative Control Options (Fate cards, etc.)
Should totally go into the game. But, but but but I'd like to emphasize that Narrative Control Options should:

A) Combat NCOs should affect the overall tactical situation, not minutae. Meaning that you use them at the beginning of combat Stupid shit like 'your next attack knocks the enemy prone' should be banned, stuff like 'your enemies were infected by a virulent disease and take penalties for the duration of combat' or 'your enemies are facing an ammunition shortage and can only make one ranged weapon attack before running out of ammo' should happen.

B) Have a pile of non-combat NCOs and combat-affecting NOCs and you're not allowed to trade them.

C) Should be random and awarded at the beginning of the adventure. If the PCs can't figure out a way to use a NCO either because they lack imagination or it really is that useless for this situation, their loss.

D) Is a party resource, not a player one.

Disadvantages
A) Should be mandatory and have a minimum.
B) You don't get anything for picking one. You also don't get anything for picking extra ones.
C) Should have players pick at least one 'physical' disadvantage, one 'personality' disadvantage, one 'history' disadvantage, and one 'luck' disadvantage.

Contacts
A) Contacts should level up alongside the player. Either that means that they get more connected (the barmaid of the most famous inn gets picked up by the King and becomes his queen), they just get flat-out more powerful, or you trade in an old contact for a few one (thief guild chump Gary for the assassin guild leader).

B) Should top out at three per player; one is a 'combat' contact and can be convinced to come alongside a player for more perilous adventures (either investigating something simultaneously or if the DM feels like it even fighting alongside the player) and the other two are 'noncombat' contacts.

C) Should have clearly-defined 'abilities' a player can schtup them for if they don't feel like roleplaying the encounter out. For example, you can try to convince the Chancellor in a session to send you some aid and some guards to help you on your quest. Or you can just use the 'Information Schtup' ability and learn what he knows or the 'Bureaucracy Manipulation' ability and have him put the screws to the thieves' guild or audit Baron von Vampire.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Archmage »

I have to say, I really like a lot of the ideas presented here. I'll post more when I'm not doing it from my cell phone.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by Swordslinger »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Combat and power statistics use a totally different metric, meaning that a level 9 Fighter little girl with an 8 in strength is still going to do just as well in battle as a level 9 Fighter bulked-out orc with a 20 in strength.
How would you pull this off? Are you just saying that your low strength fighter would just be a 4E style dex attacker or are you actually removing the effects of ability scores from combat entirely?
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

Disadvantages should be split non-combat and combat like the other abilities. Like you must take one of each type, and at least two must be combat flaws.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Swordslinger wrote: How would you pull this off? Are you just saying that your low strength fighter would just be a 4E style dex attacker or are you actually removing the effects of ability scores from combat entirely?
The latter.

BearsAreBrown wrote: Disadvantages should be split non-combat and combat like the other abilities. Like you must take one of each type, and at least two must be combat flaws.
I don't approve of having combat disadvantages, because they're just straight-up minmax bait that increases complexity without really adding anything to the game. 'Hair Trigger Temper' or 'Racist' are fun disadvantages that can add a lot to a roleplay experience, while 'Vulnerable 3 Acid' or 'Slow to Act' do not.

It's pretty much the same reason why I didn't propose an 'advantage' table. Unearthed Arcana 3E pretty much showed us what a big pile of fail those concepts were.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

I generally don't approve of mixing RNGs within a game. I love dicepools. I love them a lot. But to be honest if you are making a system that uses a d20, you should use the damn d20 to resolve skill checks too.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote: I generally don't approve of mixing RNGs within a game. I love dicepools. I love them a lot. But to be honest if you are making a system that uses a d20, you should use the damn d20 to resolve skill checks too.

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Just too much of a paradigm shift for players to wrap their heads around? Fair enough.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

@No Combat Disadvantages,
That's even better then splitting them. Good call.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by shadzar »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I'm just curious on what you think is an appropriate amount of complexity for a non-beginner to have with their characters.
The amount within their own threshold.

IF you take the concept that there would be more than one level of D&D, wherein a begging set of rules has everything needed to play and learn the basic parts of the game, and them "lists" expanded, and some more detailed functions presented in a non-beginner form, then it will all really matter as to what the player themselves wishes for.

Basic D&D is just that, a good place for beginners. The original Red Box then is not only a game for beginners, but can be played by non-beginners for many hours/years of fun. The addition of more levels might just be needed to continue and feel a level of accomplishment, but nothing much else is really required.

The levels could represent that things are changing and that the once near-death causing months are no longer a threat, and instant death monsters are now something that can be fought on par with.

So the maximum it should have, is only what is required to play the game. the maximum it should ALLOW, should be that which the players may wish to seek and add say Immortals, Expert, Companion, etc...

The PC needs really only a place to know whether or not them may continue, HP represents this. The ability to take a hit or deflect it since combat is present. This is represented by AC. The ability to hit back, the function of weapons, attacking, etc.

There needs a way to communicate with others and make contracts with them and agreements or disagreements in a society affecting manner. But it need only be simple to get the job done as HP is simple to show whether you can continue a battle.

You would also need a method of spending/exchanging treasure to get things you want instead of what you found.

This is about all the complexity a PC needs. The rest would be what the player wants.

All the player really needs is the information n the character that will guide choices made. HP being one of the very few mechanics a player could use, but still not required. Name, race, class, and equipment is all a player really needs to use a PC. Everything else can be supplied or requested (dice roll) when it becomes needed.
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Post by MGuy »

I agree and have actually come up with similar things as the stuff presented here but to try and go along with the overall question, what measurement of "complexity" are we using here? How many tricks a PC can have? How many separate "things" a PC can have/do?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

MGuy wrote:I agree and have actually come up with similar things as the stuff presented here but to try and go along with the overall question, what measurement of "complexity" are we using here? How many tricks a PC can have? How many separate "things" a PC can have/do?
Both of those things. My proposal would actually increase complexity for D&D characters over any previously seen edition, but it tries to increase complexity in a way to add functionality in areas D&D typically doesn't explore very much (such as magical tea party, the skill system, temporarily taking the story off of the rails, etc..)
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

Then I agree with what you have presente4d almost entirely. I had been fretting the fact that I may be putting too much onto a player's character sheet by having more options for PCs than 3rd but I don't see any objections here about it so this may give me the inspiration I need to forge ahead.

Personally: I prefer high complexity characters i the complexity is used to make the game enjoyable. MtG, Yu-gi-oh, DnD etc interests me because of the complexity and challenge. Extra complexity that doesn't add anything (I recently looked into Anima when I was mining ideas) makes me stop thinking and go fuck it, but having a hand full of options in a CCG makes me want to think about what I want to do. Option paralysis hasn't been a problem fo rme since I strapped a one minute time limit on decision making for players and on myself when I play.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by Emerald »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Disadvantages

C) Should have players pick at least one 'physical' disadvantage, one 'personality' disadvantage, one 'history' disadvantage, and one 'luck' disadvantage.
I'm not sure the idea of a "luck" disadvantage really makes sense here. Physical disadvantages are easy to come up with (and tons of people want to play the blind swordsman or the coughing-up-a-lung Raistlin-clone mage anyway), there are a bazillion Random NPC Personality Quirks tables to roll on, and you can express "My PC really pissed someone powerful off and he's fucked if his history ever catches up with him" in at least as many ways as the number of intelligent races in the game times the number of classes. On the other hand, there are only so many ways you can say a PC is unlucky before it starts seeming to be a stretch for every single PC to be unlucky in some respect; it's possible that I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a "luck disadvantage," but if so I'm not really sure where you're going with that.
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Post by Vnonymous »

I'd simply make attributes a function of level. If you are an adventurer, you are this tall, this charismatic, this strong. If you want to be fat or blind or clumsy that's just a disadvantage that you take.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by tussock »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Hit points should be in the double-digits even at maximum level. ...
Counting damage upwards would help. If you mix in some standard DR, you can keep HP smaller and keep scaling up damage too. Nice to stick with one number though, just have the common man with 3 HP and the gods with 66, and have a care with the damage options.

DCs are a poor dice mechanic anyway. Have a skill of 1+, a target modifier of 10 or less, and roll less than or equal to the total. Ftr6 vs Troll = 7+5 = roll 12 or less. Cap the numbers at total skill 20 and modifier -10.

OD&D has near-useless attributes. Basically the rolls only push you into a class, and it's a gentle push. If you go like that when you can choose your stats, you may as well not bother.

Races should be more than a bumpy forehead. Even the Dwarven god of war should be different from the Orc god of war. Not like magical tea party different either. Dwarves are walking statues, Orcs are emotionally stunted rage-zombies, Kobolds are the dreams of great dragons.

Gear should be awesome, unlimited, and fragile. Today you're flying with the wind, tomorrow you're travelling the astral seas, the next you're walking the path of shadows to the nightmare lands, where a magnet trap permanently destroys all your metal items and that doesn't matter because you have spares (and the fighter can kill and defend alright with that wooden chair over there).

Powers are shit, do not want. For reals. There are spells, which Wizards do cool shit with, and there is gear which Fighters do cool shit with. D&D. See also skills which Rogues do cool shit with, and gods which Clerics do cool shit with.


Multiclass. Hmm. Gestalts work, you've just got to get somewhere close to fair with the XP requirements.

Class options. Not so much. A Wizard's options are his spells, a Fighter's options are his gear, a Rogue's are his skills, and a Cleric's are the tempers of his gods. You don't really need another layer of options over that, when they will inevitably be full of traps.

Narrative control is what spells do, and gods, and skills, and gear. Your class determines which of those you're best with. Don't add another layer when that one works just fine.

Disadvantages are good to have on paper, so that bad things can happen to PCs. Not sure why I need to start as a gimp when the game world will happily make me it's bitch along the way.

Don't care about contacts, pre-adventure boxed text can cover that.
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Post by ckafrica »

Attributes

I hate them and want them to die a painful death. At most they should be like broad skills so Strength is limited to picking up things and carrying them. Really they should just be skills.


Damage

I like the idea of fractional DR even though it means more math. i simply like the idea that death from 1000 paper cuts means that wading through an army of Orcs might not be a good idea because each one hitting for 1 point of damage could eventually take you down. The alternative could be a mechanic for turning those individual orcs into units who would be doing enough damage to get the a set DR.


Multiclassing

A good multiclassing mechanic is important but I'm not sure the best way to go. You also have to account for those you want to go single class. I remember an earlier discussion where you'd be able to choose from 2 different classe power lists or pick all from a single list. This would require enough variety of powers in a single class that two single class fighters could be different from one another (though likely with some cross over)


Disadvantages:

I'm never sure I like these. Done wrong and it results in a bunch of sociopaths/psychopaths. I liked the tome background idea that you get something good with something bad. Perhaps a mix and match list where players could customize exactly what their disadvantages do could work.
Advantages are obviously not needed. They are called feats/powers/spells/talents/shticks/whatevers


Contacts

You should get new contacts as you increase your tier. Your village hero tier contacts probably become the new village heros when you move to the national hero tier. Perhaps your village tier patrons now become your national tier contacts. Being able to swap out over time is a definite yes.
Last edited by ckafrica on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by Username17 »

tussock wrote: Counting damage upwards would help.
Yes. Losing life points is evocative but it is really slow. Having your hit points stay static and have a separate damage total that drops you if it is equal or greater than your hit points would resolve much quicker and mor accurately.
DCs are a poor dice mechanic anyway. Have a skill of 1+, a target modifier of 10 or less, and roll less than or equal to the total. Ftr6 vs Troll = 7+5 = roll 12 or less. Cap the numbers at total skill 20 and modifier -10.
That is fucking terrible. Roll under systems are awful and should not be brought back. It is a really really bad way of handling anything. It's just like DCs except that by inverting several numbers you've made it really hard to have secret modifiers and to perform opposed rolls. Roll Under is exactly as ass backward as THAC0 and it should be eliminated from every festering hole it hides in.

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Post by Koumei »

ckafrica wrote:I liked the tome background idea that you get something good with something bad.
A long time ago I made a failed attempt at making my own game system. I knew of the Merit/Flaw system of White Wolf and didn't like it. I instead went with things you could pick that were basically "Backgrounds" and have something good and bad. So if you take Income, then you have money, but you also either have to fuck off to work a job (generally being "You don't get downtime to do stuff away from the group"), or you have a chance of police busting your meth lab.

That part seemed to work pretty well. It was nice to see a similar thing happening in Tome Backgrounds.

Warp Cult's Disadvantage system is pretty good too.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I don't like backgrounds for D&D other than for flavor because it's kind of bullshit that the fact you grew up in the slums still affects your combat effectiveness when you're a level 15 Demon Knight.

Of course you could just eliminate the bonus after a certain point in the game, but people get really attached to the numbers on their sheet. I figure it's best just not to bother.

Skills are a bullshit thing to have after a certain point; there's a reason why I intentionally tried to put in (clumsily I might add, as FrankTrollman pointed out) a mechanic that would cause skills to fall further behind as the adventure goes on. I think it's an insult and a waste of time for skills like Spellcraft and Survival and Athletics to matter after a certain point--even if people stick to their guns and actually give them epic effects after awhile, it invariably causes DCs to inflate way past a manageable level after a certain point. So fuck it, regular skills get retired in place, you need to do skill stunts or whatever after a certain point. Nothing comes to mind, I'm just too pissed off at people being married to this gaming albatross like the Brontosaurus and Pluto the Planet to think rationally about it right now. Maybe later.
ckafrica wrote: You should get new contacts as you increase your tier.
If you mean new as in you replace the old ones and the oldbies get kicked to the curb (or forced to upgraydde) then yes, but players should ditch the old ones as time goes on. Honestly having more than 2 meaningful contacts is too much to juggle, especially when one of those contacts is 'the Necromancer's Guild' or 'Archangel Metatron'.
ckafrica wrote: You also have to account for those you want to go single class.
If someone wants to single class then they pick their Main/Sub/Minor class to be the same class. So a single-classed druid would be Druid/Druid/Druid or just 'Druid'. A Wizard/Warlock/Wizard would be a Wizard with a Sub in Warlock. A Rogue/Monk/Monk would just be a Rogue/Monk.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

A few questions about your discrepancy with skills.

A) Why do you think skills are unnecessary after a certain point?

B) Why do you think that you cannot just get rid of the inflation?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

MGuy wrote: A) Why do you think skills are unnecessary after a certain point?
They aren't in abstract, it's just that:

A) Not all skills are created equal. Sure, some skills like Diplomacy scale pretty well, but most of them top out. Acrobatics is pretty pointless at around the time you get persistent flight. There's really no reason to have mundane perception skills once people get access to super-illusions. Hell, the Spellcraft skill gives up the ghost after a certain point and then it just becomes a skill point sink. What the fuck are you supposed to do with a +30 to your Profession/Mason skill that you couldn't do with superpowers? And worse, they top out at different points in the game. Perception becomes useless at around level 23, when not having all-day True Seeing is an embarrassment. Climb becomes useless at level 7. You could put off some of this obsolescence by combining skills, but the fact remains that Athletics and Nature becomes less useful of an investment than Influence as you gain levels.

B) If you wanted to avert A, you'd have to go really crazy with skills. Like Touhou-level crazy where metaphors become literal. Climb would eventually let you climb into portals into pocket dimensions, Survival lets you control all of the weather on the continent, Handle Animal lets you do mass-scale genetic engineering, etc.

Except that... people are going to throw a bitch fit if you actually let people do this with skills. See, skills are kind of fucked by allowing even commoners to take a whack at the Arcana skill, so a lot of people will insist on not letting them do anything cool or do so at a prohibitive cost. I mean, fuck, in the ELH didn't balancing on a cloud have like a DC of 120? How in the hell are you supposed to achieve that without some stupid broken combo before level 70? You're not supposed to, it's just there so that retarded grognards don't get a bug up their butt.
MGuy wrote: B) Why do you think that you cannot just get rid of the inflation?
You could if you used a different RNG (with the power scaling D&D does, a d20 would become unmanageable quite quickly), but I was warned that using two different RNGs is a bad idea. The only way it'd work is if you arbitrarily renormalized after a certain point but if you're doing that why not just use a different system and cockblock people in the above paragraph from sticking their 'swordpeople shouldn't do anything cool!' dicks into things.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

You seem to want to make a leap away from DnD as is, cutting off the lower tiers to essentially make a superhero game. Why not just drop the pretense of lower level adventures and make your own hero style game? You have several systems and enough ideas to put a working game together. Hell I'm like a sixth of the way to having a game I could put on the table and I'm spending less than an hour a week working on it at all. You can easily break away from the bonds of DnD as is and say fuck all to people who don't want to jump on board.
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Post by Username17 »

I think accumulating whole pages of lists of contacts that probably won't show up in future episodes but still could is an important part of having continuing characters. In season three you should totally have a reunion episode where you call in the mechanic and the tribal warriors from season 1 and a wrestler and a swamp shaman from season 2. In season 5 you should totally call on the demon singer from season 2, the conflicted evil lawyer from season 1, the monster hunter born to vampires from season 3, and the fallen demon goddess from earlier in season 5.

Doing big things involving characters whose lives have been touched by the player characters is an essential part of having a continuing story. I really deeply believe that contact lists should just sort of bloat over time.

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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by tussock »

FrankTrollman wrote:
tussock wrote:DCs are a poor dice mechanic anyway. Have a skill of 1+, a target modifier of 10 or less, and roll less than or equal to the total. Ftr6 vs Troll = 7+5 = roll 12 or less. Cap the numbers at total skill 20 and modifier -10.
That is fucking terrible. Roll under systems are awful and should not be brought back. It is a really really bad way of handling anything. It's just like DCs except that by inverting several numbers you've made it really hard to have secret modifiers and to perform opposed rolls. Roll Under is exactly as ass backward as THAC0 and it should be eliminated from every festering hole it hides in.
Ah, see, I don't use secret anything after the dice come out (IMO, the game is abstract enough to the players without adding a disguise), so I don't suffer that flaw. Contests are just highest successful die roll, but I prefer a normal action check and save rather than opposed checks for most tasks.

DCs aren't too bad if you keep the numbers nice and low, but a d20 doesn't help that, nor does everything getting +5 to hit and AC at 1st level like 4e.
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Re: What's the maximum complexity a D&D PC should have?

Post by Username17 »

tussock wrote:Ah, see, I don't use secret anything after the dice come out (IMO, the game is abstract enough to the players without adding a disguise), so I don't suffer that flaw.
So you want to tell the player exactly how tough the armor is on every opponent that the player attacks before they roll their dice in every instance? Really? Every time?

Nothing is stopping you from doing that in a DC system, it's just that the system works doing it in reverse order or not telling the players at all. It's more flexible to use DCs in that manner. 'Roll High' has additional functionality that 'Roll Low' does not have. And loses literally nothing in order to gain that functionality.
Contests are just highest successful die roll, but I prefer a normal action check and save rather than opposed checks for most tasks.
Oh. So you "just" require the players to present and remember two pieces of information instead of one in order to resolve opposed tests. Also you lose functionality with the ability to gain "degrees of success" (since by definition a higher degree of success is more likely to lose an opposed test), and you can't scale the system at all past the hard limits of the random number generator instead of being unable to scale differences of more than the RNG. And for all this loss of functionality you gain... absolutely nothing. That's not hyperbole, there is literally nothing in the advantage column here.

Roll High is objectively superior to Roll Low. Roll Low is a shit system that is needlessly cumbersome and presents no advantages. I am flabbergasted that someone would suggest it in apparent seriousness in 2011.

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