Women and Gaming

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:37 pm

I think this is one of those cultural constructs that is about expectations and the opportunity to overcome them. While gaming may not be the first pick for the ladies, once they come to it they seem to kick ass. Even in high school I remember that while D&D (as discussed earlier in the thread) didn't seem to present a welcoming environment, the chicks who got into Vampire were easily more hardcore. It was always "I'm a sassy flapper from the 20s who is also a diabolist with opiate lactation and a vagina dentata." So awesome.

Nowadays I think the gap is definitely closing- my teenage sister-in-law whoops up on both me and her boyfriend on pretty much any FPS you'd care to name. A couple who my wife and I game with are both huge nerds- but when it comes time for any sort of competitive game, the female half Natalie is the one who is going to administer some beatass.

I suppose the question remains- what is it about D&D, obvious chainmail bikini stuff aside- that is unappealing to most ladies?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:19 pm

As one who did spend a lot of time in Astrid's Parlor when it first came up, I think the whole context of the question is wrong. Aside from my college days (when RPI still had only a minority of women anyway) I've been playing role playing games with the ladies all my life. I've played under lady DM's as well.

That being said, there is a general tendency to really mean "how do we widen a particular game's player base" when we talk about "women gamers." Not all people like the same games. (SHOCK AND HORROR) I think the basic idea goes back to a rant Gygax once wrote into his DMG about how in a world of "fantasy" you need at least one common thing that the players can relate and even cling to. (In his case he was writing about why AD&D was exceptionally human-centric.) What people read, what they watch, all have an imact on what they would prefer to play.

So if you look out there you will find a lof of different groups, some of these are highly female oriented. You have your crowd of soap opera watchers and romantic novel readers. They swim daily in a sea of relationships, lies, betrayals, and other social interactions. You might find them attracted to LARPS or to the interactin games like Vampire.

On the other hand there are also those who love a good mystery or even a gothic horror novel. Here they might gravitate to the gothic horror type of games.

And finally you have those blond (in spirit) shopping mall babes from Califorina. I don't think they gravitate towards anything.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:10 pm

Obvious troll is obvious.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:12 pm

I think he showed up previously under an acronym.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:14 pm

A Beaten Mermen Net Throw? Oh, acronym, not anagram.

Post by **Zherog** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:30 pm

[the voice of tech support]

Nothing to see here. Move along...

--Z

[/the voice of tech support]

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:32 pm

name_here wrote:I think he showed up previously under an acronym.

Yeah, he posted originally here, in Crissa's old thread. After I responded to him, he deleted his first post.

Post by **Zherog** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:33 pm

Thanks for the link... *whistles innocently*

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:35 pm

No problem.

I posted that as you were deleting the first post. Once I saw that, I figured you'd put it to use.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:14 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

I'm not sure why it needs discussion...it's pretty self-evident if you read his crap.

TheWorid · Post by **TheWorid** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:01 pm

I hate to make unfair generalizations, so make of this what you will. My expert testimony is that I and many other women I know like the interpersonal aspect of RPGs. That is, not only talking to NPCs but importantly having relationships with other player characters, who are usually more fleshed out. Having dragons and wizards is totally fine with women as long as they can also develop interesting characters.

Of course, that's anecdotal and by no means meant to indicate a rule for all women. Personally, I still enjoy bashing monsters and other standard aspects of the hobby. It suggests, however, more player-oriented games with ample ways to escape death besides padded sumo (character death nullifies character growth, and leaves a sour taste in the mouth of a new player who isn't used to it) and allow one to achieve great power such that they can exercise control over the world other than evisceration. The latter trait What's good about this is that this isn't a "girly" game, it's actually a viable and good way to go about making a game that we already strive for at the Den.

Also, best to avoid heavy math. That's true of any product that hopes to reach out to new players anyways. Women are perfectly capable of doing math, but in my experience they tend to be less acculturated to doing it in the context of recreation. That's a social trait, so the goal is to convince them that a some math is fine to play a game with and hypothetically future generations won't have that issue.

The other option is to ignore trying to target women specifically and just make games that don't suck. Then playership among men and women both will increase, and there won't be such a problem in the first place. There are plenty of female gamers, in all kinds of RPGs all ready.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:18 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
Plebian wrote:oh, yes, obviously I have to be feigning indignation that you think women are incapable of liking rulesets and videogames and pretend murder. that's the only possible explanation. couldn't be that I'm genuinely offended that you think an entire section of humanity is literally incapable of liking the same things you do because they don't have dangly bits.
If you're not trolling, then you're a male feminist. Enjoy your involuntary celibacy, rofl.

Wait, wait, wait. Male feminists don't get it on?

I guess I should tell the coed and the milf that I'm not available tonight. I'll admit that I'll miss their purring and other actions, but I guess that's that, I'm a feminist and apparently I have to be celibate.

I'm glad you opened my eyes on that one PR, I guess people really don't like to be treated with respect and decency, my mistake there.

I may need some pointers though, demeaning other people really isn't my style, or fitting of my temperament.

Seriously though, saying you're not a feminist is the same as saying you're a racist. It's a personal choice to be sure, but it's not a good moral one to make.

Which I think is pretty related to the topic of this thread.

Personally, I treat all female players who have never gamed before the same as I treat all people who haven't gamed before. I ask them what they feel like playing, help write up their character sheet based on their character goals, and then remind them during gameplay that they can use certain abilities when opportunities show up. I don't mind helping them optimize their characters, and have no problem throwing them gear that they want (usually I flat out ask them what gear they're looking to get, and give a list of powers available within their power bracket, from flying to mind-control or teleportation).

Treating any player in a condescending manner, or trying to embarrass them is, surprise, surprise, going to upset them. People don't want you to MC for them if you upset them, but for some people that's not apparent.

Rasumichin · Post by **Rasumichin** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:49 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote: I suppose the question remains- what is it about D&D, obvious chainmail bikini stuff aside- that is unappealing to most ladies?

The dreaded specimen known as The Neckbeard.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:44 pm

Plebian wrote:is there any way that you are not a terrible person

Yes, but they are few and far between.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:30 am

Coed is a sexist term. So there.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:06 am

Rasumichin wrote:
JigokuBosatsu wrote: I suppose the question remains- what is it about D&D, obvious chainmail bikini stuff aside- that is unappealing to most ladies?
The dreaded specimen known as The Neckbeard.

Valid point. "The reason there are few Female Gamers is because of Male Gamers".

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:39 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
Plebian wrote:oh, yes, obviously I have to be feigning indignation that you think women are incapable of liking rulesets and videogames and pretend murder. that's the only possible explanation. couldn't be that I'm genuinely offended that you think an entire section of humanity is literally incapable of liking the same things you do because they don't have dangly bits.
If you're not trolling, then you're a male feminist. Enjoy your involuntary celibacy, rofl.
Wait, wait, wait. Male feminists don't get it on?

What's wrong with Celibacy? Don't get me wrong, I'm not religious by anyone's definition, but sometimes it's just easier in the end to not fuck someone than it is to deal with the fallout of fucking someone. (Learned the hard way a while back that it's not possible to un-fuck someone

)

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Celibacy: I choose to abstain from sex.
Involuntary celibacy: WHY CAN'T I GET LAAAAAAID

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:39 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Celibacy: I choose to abstain from sex.
Involuntary celibacy: WHY CAN'T I GET LAAAAAAID

Also, perhaps it's from a hindsight perspective as I made the choice to have sex several times with it wasn't in my long-term best interests.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:15 pm

My DND group has generally been 40%/60% (male) or 50/50%. The gaming conventions (not limited to DND alone) that I've attended have generally been about the same. I helped run my universities gaming con and of the ~1100 people that attended, 57% were female. Perhaps it's because it's not limited to DND and they prefer other systems, but DND was a big focus.
Not sure I'm seeing some of the same things other people have experienced.

I'd have to guess that the biggest problem is groups that are treating women in some sort of marginalizing way --- assumptions about sex, appearance of character, crude jokes, or other behaviours that make women feel less welcome. Given the number of horror stories I've read (some of which are on this forum), I feel obliged to wonder if the system is not at fault, but perhaps some of the people that play it?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:13 pm

It's also possible that men spend time talking about playing, but women just quietly have fun actually playing. I don't think there are any really solid demographic surveys.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:58 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote: What's wrong with Celibacy? Don't get me wrong, I'm not religious by anyone's definition, but sometimes it's just easier in the end to not fuck someone than it is to deal with the fallout of fucking someone. (Learned the hard way a while back that it's not possible to un-fuck someone :tonguesmilie: )

You should check out Dylan Moran.

"You have a very important decision to make in life: do you want to be single, or with somebody? Do you want to be sane, or not lonely?"

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:08 am

Yeah, Dylan Moran is pretty awesome. His show "black books" is pretty cool.

Also, aside from Maj, who else is a girl on this forum? Crissa seems to have disappeared into the ether. So has cielingcat. Anyone else?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:30 am

Cynic wrote:Yeah, Dylan Moran is pretty awesome. His show "black books" is pretty cool.

Also, aside from Maj, who else is a girl on this forum? Crissa seems to have disappeared into the ether. So has cielingcat. Anyone else?

Koumei

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:47 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
Plebian wrote:oh, yes, obviously I have to be feigning indignation that you think women are incapable of liking rulesets and videogames and pretend murder. that's the only possible explanation. couldn't be that I'm genuinely offended that you think an entire section of humanity is literally incapable of liking the same things you do because they don't have dangly bits.
If you're not trolling, then you're a male feminist. Enjoy your involuntary celibacy, rofl.
Wait, wait, wait. Male feminists don't get it on?

That line (that male feminists are sad sacks who can't get laid...often combines with "you're just acting all feminist-y to try to get in good with chicks) has to be one of the more laughable attempted insults out there. It's right along with such classics as "haha your a [EDITED]" and "NERRRRRRD!".