...We should create a Corporation.

Gods_Trick · Post by **Gods_Trick** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:11 pm

Midnight_v wrote: Plus, I'm awed by all the negativity.

Its a fast easy position with a lot of support. Self affirmation high if they succeed.

Negativity, its cheap crack cocain.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:19 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:Not really... Frank and K have expressed that their stuff is completely open source, and you don't even have to credit them. I actually would credit them, but that's because I hope to have some kind of career as a writer, and don't want some "you printed someone's work without accreditation!" thing to bite me in the ass...

Hmm, that's tempting ... I have been looking for a reason to get into Docbook&XSL ... could you perhaps link me to where they said that?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:01 pm

MfA wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:Not really... Frank and K have expressed that their stuff is completely open source, and you don't even have to credit them. I actually would credit them, but that's because I hope to have some kind of career as a writer, and don't want some "you printed someone's work without accreditation!" thing to bite me in the ass...
Hmm, that's tempting ... I have been looking for a reason to get into Docbook&XSL ... could you perhaps link me to where they said that?

We say it all the time. Our work is open sourced and can be printed or reprinted any time, anywhere, in whole or in part, by anyone, with or without attribution.

The only time I've ever been pissed about getting plagiarized is when someone asks the plagiarist point blank whether something they wrote is cribbed from me and they deny it. Like Jaron_K or Oto the Bugbear. But that annoys me because of the dishonesty, not because of the plagiarism.

Caedrus/OneWingAngel copypastaed some of my writing into his super special secret forum and that did not bother me at all. The fact that he threw a temper tantrum and started accusing people of being in a giant cabal to destroy his special game forum and tarnish his good name kind of vexed me. But that had nothing to do with him putting essays of mine into his forums via Ctrl-V.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:20 pm

I remember Otto, but what did JaronK steal and then claim was not yours?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:29 pm

Kaelik wrote:I remember Otto, but what did JaronK steal and then claim was not yours?

Jaron had some sort of nerfed foil action in his Fighter variant. Someone said "Hey, that's something K wrote, right?" and he was like "NO U!" Just a quick internet search brings up this one. Though his avalanche of flame spam directed at anyone who could question that putting "foil action" as an ability in his Fighter revision wasn't 100% original doesn't appear to be there.

My complaint was never people using K or my work in their own game design, it was always people being douchebags. Like I said with Caedrus:

FrankTrollman wrote:Caedrus' material contains more than a little bit of stuff I wrote,lifted whole sale. Or at least it did last time I checked. Someone appointed themselves a whistleblower and granted me the opportunity to look in on his secret project asking if I recognized the material and if I wanted to do anything about it.

And like with Otto the Bugbear, the answer is that yes I recognize the material, and no I don't want to do anything about it. The material I write and put on line is open content, which means that people are free, nay encouraged to take parts to it that they like and use it for whatever purposes they see fit. I don't believe that intellectual property is helpful as a concept. I live by my principles, and if people want to take discussions I made about skill systems and repurpose them towards their own projects, then good for them.

I don't consider such things to be "ripping people off" - least of all me. There's nothing wrong with Caedrus' use of my discussions or material, but there is something wrong with Caedrus' bullying of other people and his weird secretiveness. The fact that he thinks the contents of his material is in any way secret is interesting and amusing, and the fact that he flips out at people for questioning the direction or tactics is just sad. But there is nothing, and I repeat nothing wrong with him including my works in his folk process. I find it transiently flattering and nothing more.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:35 pm

Oh no, I'm well familiar with your acceptance of people stealing your stuff, that's why I am still attempting a total coop of the Tomes by making only minor changes. I just love a JaronK being a retard example very much.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:41 pm

I think I was somewhere in the middle of the whole Otto and Jaron thing, but without knowing it. When I used to be on the WotC boards (well after Frank had left), I saw Otto's Frank & K's fighter and liked it. The problem was, I actually thought that it was Otto's work because he gave no credit.

When doing some homebrew of my own on BG, I posted a similar version (giving Otto credit), and Jaron basically took my version (we were somewhat working together). It wasn't until Ubernoob told me that I even heard of the Tomes. It's basically what brought me here.

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:10 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:publish it through one of "just make an account, we'll print it" sites,

[Thread Hijack]
Such as?
[/TH]

Game On,
fbmf

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:09 pm

Off the top of my head

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:25 pm

Krusk wrote:Off the top of my head

Cool. And if I wanted a hard copy?

Game On,
fbmf

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:43 pm

Here we are. Someone mentions that the thing JaronK is holding aloft is in fact a neutered Race of War fighter, written by K and myself. Then JaronK loses his shit.

-Username17

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:50 pm

That JaronK is a sad piece of shit. I wonder if he's still trying to claim that he did that himself.

Edit, because I had given away information I was supposed to keep to myself. And also because the part of the post I now got rid of was entirely pointless anyway.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 pm

fbmf wrote:Cool. And if I wanted a hard copy?

lulu

Blurb

Haven't heard literally anything about blurb but it was the first result in google.

Edit Fixing url tags.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:24 pm

I hate JaronK as much as the next guy, but Frank is outright lying, and his own "source" proves it. Anyone in doubt needs only read that page and, um, a single link. Not exactly hard.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:36 pm

Bigode wrote:I hate JaronK as much as the next guy, but Frank is outright lying

This is not uncommon. The idea that two people cannot come up with similar (or even the same) ideas without one copying the other is, well, horseshit. Alfred Russel Wallace totally cribbed off of Darwin, right?

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:43 pm

Retard: Jaron didn't use anything similar to Frank's in his original. In fact, had he, I'd support the claim of plagiarism without thinking twice.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:13 am

I don't actually give a fuck what he used in his original. He posted up something that had stuff copypastaed out of the Races of War Fighter. Whether that was his fifth version or his twenty fifth version makes no difference.

And that isn't even a problem, since the Races of War Fighter is open source. The problem is when someone says that it looks like a nerfed version of the Races of War Fighter - which it is - and he flips the fuck out. The problem isn't the copypasta, you can't steal something that's free. The problem is him losing his shit when other people discuss the origins of the abilities.

Him pointing to other, older versions he had been working on that didn't use anything derived from materials I helped write don't actually mean jack diddly in the face of the fact that his later version posted in that thread did. But again, and this is important: there is absolutely no problem with any version having Array of Stunts and Foil Action in it. The problem is 100% that he turned a very simple and factual observation into a giant drama bomb. Kind of like how you're doing now.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:18 am

Although JaronK did overreact to Caedrus, there is nothing so sweet as the nectar of Internet drama.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:42 am

First off: no, you idiot - you falsely accused him again.

Second: you mean the fighter that RobbyPants posted, with abilities' origins clearly marked (save for Otto's, who never denied having lifted from RoW), and JaronK's clear disclaim about having done those? With Jaron's link to what he had actually done, which has no resemblance to yours?

BTW, I hadn't so far questioned your version about Otto: his claim that he couldn't get a reply from you as to how you wanted to be credited actually sounds pretty plausible.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:54 am

Bigode wrote:Retard: Jaron didn't use anything similar to Frank's in his original. In fact, had he, I'd support the claim of plagiarism without thinking twice.

Be that as it may, it does nothing to invalidate this statement:

The idea that two people cannot come up with similar (or even the same) ideas without one copying the other is, well, horseshit.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:06 am

Bigode wrote:First off: no, you idiot - you falsely accused him again.

Second: you mean the fighter that RobbyPants posted, with abilities' origins clearly marked (save for Otto's, who never denied having lifted from RoW), and JaronK's clear disclaim about having done those? With Jaron's link to what he had actually done, which has no resemblance to yours?

BTW, I hadn't so far questioned your version about Otto: his claim that he couldn't get a reply from you as to how you wanted to be credited actually sounds pretty plausible.

Biogde.

You are weird.

Apparently Caedrus said "looks like half a RoW fighter" and JaronK flips the fuck out. Now, Caedrus does ninja edit things all the time, true but JaronK is genuinely accusing Caedrus of ninja editing his post so to not say that, but somehow, the board says it wasn't edited.

He's seriously thinks the board not working is more likely than him making a mistake.

That link he keeps posting isn't what people were even talking about, so it has nothing to do with anything.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:10 am

Bigode wrote:Second: you mean the fighter that RobbyPants posted, with abilities' origins clearly marked (save for Otto's, who never denied having lifted from RoW), and JaronK's clear disclaim about having done those? With Jaron's link to what he had actually done, which has no resemblance to yours?

Yeah, it's been two years or more, but near as I can remember:

- I read Otto's version (ripped off from Frank) several years earlier and liked it.

- I wrote up my own version as part of a larger project. This had a lot of stuff copy-pasted. In my first version, I attributed it to Otto, not knowing it wasn't really his in the first place.

- Other people at BG were bouncing ideas around, including Jaron.

So, I can't remember if that version posted at Glemax was one I'd made, or one based on one I made that Jaron had modified. Either way, it's entirely possible he didn't even know it was a watered down Tome Fighter. Oddly enough, it was that whole project where Ubernoob pointed me to the Tomes in the first place.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:44 am

Okay, enough of this "X stole from Y" shit. We need to get back on-topic if you ask me, because pointing fingers seems quite useless around here because we cannot even agree on who denied stealing from others and who stole without knowing it was stolen and other such crap. Besides, Frank already said it was Open Source, so yeah.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:51 pm

Okay here's what I'm planning ... probably never going to finish it, but nice to have plans.

I'm planning to setup a Calenco repository and port a mix of PF, 3.5 and 3 SRDs to Docbook with it, with selected bits of Tome material. For things like classes, spells, magic items, skills and feats I'm going to try to use structured data ... (concretely each entry of these would have a relaxng schema). Which gets transformed to output formats with a stylesheet.

if I ever get far enough that I could see others wanting to contribute I'll open it up for people to create branches, but the stylesheets will stay private and the only output I'd allow users to generate with them would be HTML (although obviously anyone would be free to export the XML and create their own stylesheets as well).

Then I could get some cheap/free fantasy art and print out a pretty dual column PDF to sell (Docbook can't do fancy things like flow text around graphics etc, but for an amateur RPG PDF it should be good enough).

What do you think?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:36 pm

fbmf wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:publish it through one of "just make an account, we'll print it" sites,
[Thread Hijack]
Such as?
[/TH]

Game On,
fbmf

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