What needs to be removed to make high level dungeons work?

[Ikeren]

There is a common conception (that's right, as far as I'm concerned), that dungeon crawls don't really work past level 10. Why bother fighting through 40 dangerous rooms of baddies for your MacGuffin if you can just scry and teleport in?


So what would we have to remove, at minimum, to make high level dungeon crawls work? Assume the group is Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Factotum, Warblade.

1) Rope trick for resting after every encounter you feel like.
2) Teleport effects for bypassing encounters.
3) Scrying effects for finding the right rooms without actually searching the dungeons.
4) Any standard game breaking material (Planar Sheperd getting 10 rounds to every one).

Anything else? (Also; I understand that the easiest solution would be to not run dungeon crawls past 10th, except that I have a 15th level party that hasn't had a dungeon crawl in 6 months and wants one. I offered to run an E6 one shot dungeon crawl, but they're pretty attached to the characters and this campaign). So then I get to make a dungeon that is covered in a permenent inpenetrable god given anti-teleport spell that we all recognize is sorta silly, but we all recognize I have little choice in doing.

[Plebian]

spells, all of them

[Fuchs]

You could create a dungeon whose "rooms" are extraplanar spaces linked by portals. Blocking the important stuff from getting scryed should be common at level 15.

[LR]

Have you read the Dungeonomicon?

[Username17]

If your goal is in fact to explore the entire dungeon and kill all the monsters, then nothing can be "skipped". So if the goal is to take out all the demons and control the castle, then the whole "skipping to the end" thing isn't a problem. If there is a time constraint to do that, then the 10 minute workday isn't an issue. If the enemies are responsive, the Rope Trick Rest Stop isn't a big deal.

If you want the players to slog through a dungeon at high level, the thing you have to take out is the finish line.

-Username17

[K]

You are over-thinking this. What do you mean by "dungeon?"

If you mean, "place where there is a number of smaller scripted battles before a scripted big boss battle," then you would need to radically alter 3e into 4e. Take out all the spells that do interesting and flavorful things, add tactical options, and otherwise make for a compelling RPG.

If you mean, "place where people will explore the whole place and have various encounters, possibly even a boss battle," then 3e is fine for that.

Here is how it works:

First, you make every place in your dungeon interesting. Put various monsters in it, and give them a reason to be there. Once you know why there are they, you know how to react to various weird things your players might do.

Then, it doesn't matter if they teleport in and kill the BBEG because they still need to explore the rest of the complex to kill the various cultists and unroot the various allies of the BBEG that we don't want coming after the PCs. Along the way, they need to root out the lich who sends demons after the BBEG's enemies and his weird end of the complex with teleporting demons, the vampire who immediately begins stalking the complex when it comes under attack and can have battles in several potential places, and the gnoll Sorcerer Illusion Master who forces enemies to waste resources on random summons.

Since they are all viable threats that might come back after the PCs, the PCs don't win by just killing the BBEG. They also carry a share of the treasure for the adventure, so people will hunt them down out of greed if nothing else.

Along the way, they can run into traps and the like if you are so inclined.

The only problem is if you have a problem with PCs beating things like traps with spells. If that's the deal, I don't have any advice because you basically should be playing a CRPG and not a TTRPG, because beating challenges is pretty much what TTRPGs is all about.

[Kaelik]

Seriously, Fourth.

Most importantly, you need to not have a shitty goal like "Get Macguffin"

But secondly, even if you do have a shitty goal, there most of those things are not as pig problems as people like to think they are. Even without Dungeonomicon rules, you can just use some of the teleport and/or scry blocks to prevent that shit, and reactive responsive monsters beat Rope Trick every time, especially at level 10+, where if you don't have any monsters with see invis or true seeing at all the PCs can just walk to the end instead.

Fixes:

1) Get a non retarded goal.
2) Use Dungeonomicon rules.

[wotmaniac]

If your goal is in fact to explore the entire dungeon and kill all the monsters, then nothing can be "skipped". So if the goal is to take out all the demons and control the castle, then the whole "skipping to the end" thing isn't a problem. If there is a time constraint to do that, then the 10 minute workday isn't an issue. If the enemies are responsive, the Rope Trick Rest Stop isn't a big deal.

If you want the players to slog through a dungeon at high level, the thing you have to take out is the finish line.

-Username17

Truer words were never spoken. (well, okay, that just may be a bit overboard; but you get the point).

1) Rope trick for resting after every encounter you feel like.

The way I read it, see invisibility, etc. should reveal this -- dispel = done.
(roving beholders never hurt either)

2) Teleport effects for bypassing encounters.

(un)hallow + dimensional anchor = done.
set the caster level arbitrarily high as needed.

3) Scrying effects for finding the right rooms without actually searching the dungeons.

how long are they gonna spend doing this? if you're actually in the dungeon, "ninja attack" is (almost) always fair game.
besides, at that level, anti-scrying should be expected (and the whole extra-planar rooms thing works too).

4) Any standard game breaking material (Planar Sheperd getting 10 rounds to every one).

at that level, just about anything and everything is fair game -- just remember the rule of cool -- if they can bust it out, then so can you (and you're probably cheating them if you don't)

[tzor]

There is a common conception (that's right, as far as I'm concerned), that dungeon crawls don't really work past level 10. Why bother fighting through 40 dangerous rooms of baddies for your MacGuffin if you can just scry and teleport in?

I really think, if you wanted to, you could create a whole number of reasonable anti-scry anti-teleport precautions that, while not completely shutting down the system, would require a lot more than just scry and teleport.

Let's consider teleport. I don't have the books with me and I don't have access to SRD sites from work so I'm going from memory. There are basically two types of teleport; the simple where you can really screw yourself if you happened to teleport into a solid object and the smart teleport that teleports flawlessly and knows where the solid things are. Let's consider the later, for a moment. How does it know where the bad places are? Well it doesn't matter, because you can fake it. That mostly empty throne room? Well it is mostly empty but smart teleport thinks it is all solid and thus relocates your teleport to OUTSIDE THE ROOM.

You can do the same thing with scry, create interference fields that give inaccurate scry results which in turn create more uncertainty for simple teleports, or even worse create an illusion that only is visible to people using scry. The king on the throne is replaced with a statue of Zeus and the statue of Zeus is replaced by an illusion of a king on a throne.

All it takes are little tweeks here and there to bring uncertainity and doubt to any high level spell that can be employed by anyone of high level. Thus in order to really to a scry and teleport you have to throw off all of the overrides and perhaps actually have someone or something personally do the observation for you to get a proper fix for the teleport.

[Ikeren]

Though I admit to mild incompetence, I also admit that I occasionally have just sufficient competence to know that "Go get MacGuffin" is not a good idea. I used it as a generic example, but it was a bad one. I apologize for the mild incompetence.

That being said, I had read Dungeonomicon, and the rest of the Tomes (very useful and well thought out), but not recently enough to recall. Thanks a lot for the suggestions; in particular, the comments about removing the finish line. I want the goal to be to explore the dungeon, and they want to explore the dungeon, so it should be relatively easy to do.

[Almaz]

Though I admit to mild incompetence, I also admit that I occasionally have just sufficient competence to know that "Go get MacGuffin" is not a good idea. I used it as a generic example, but it was a bad one. I apologize for the mild incompetence.

That being said, I had read Dungeonomicon, and the rest of the Tomes (very useful and well thought out), but not recently enough to recall. Thanks a lot for the suggestions; in particular, the comments about removing the finish line. I want the goal to be to explore the dungeon, and they want to explore the dungeon, so it should be relatively easy to do.

Then as long as exploring the dungeon is rewarding they will continue to do so, and they will split the moment things get overly hairy and not meet acceptable risk/reward. Essentially, as long as monsters in the dungeon serve as sources of loot that they can beat the treasure out of, they will keep at it until it gets troublesome or boring.

[Judging__Eagle]

One solution could be that the finish line's location is unknown. It's somewhere in a region, but you have to travel through and clear out other areas before you can search for the finish line properly.

Blocking spell effects doesn't even need a lot of work or thickness of walls and can be done with things like thin sheets of metal; something that 50gp to cast Wall of Iron can accomplish.

Layering the walls with thin layers of trapped materials, such as steel tiles with Fire Trap or Fabricated clay tiles with Explosive Contact Runes is also a potential idea to prevent wall burrowing; as is the iconic example from the Dungeonomicon of a dungeon made up of a series of pipes in an ocean of mercury.


1) Rope Trick: is invisbible, not unseeable; anyone with Detect Magic or True Seeing is going to spot that shit. Also, you know, guards and patrols would report that the commando group in the base has suddenly disappeared within the rooms the PCs last went through. Re-entry to the dungeon will be dangerous after a single rope trick.

2) Teleport: thin metal lining, 40' long corridors with switchbacks to separate one dungeon block from an other, locally applied spells to prevent that sort of thing occurring without repercussions; Anticipate Teleport, Dimensional Anchor, etc.

3)Scrying, dungeonomicon; plus you can layer illusions over a room to make it seem as if it is something else, and you can't properly discern that there are illusions via scrying alone; even an illusion of "a grey smoke-filled room" is pretty effective at perma-obfuscating a room and costs whatever a permanent 1st level spell-casting trap/item would cost

4) standard game breaking stuff? easy, ask for complete player notes, and remind them that you will be using similar powers and tactics. Strategies (i.e. long term plans) should avoid being poached from players, as should extremely unique tactics that have nothing to do with actual character sheet abilities. I once had a character who would fake "dying" all the time after charging to the back row of the enemy; get ignored, then would use attacks that would have been ill-advised while near/beside allies, but effective when surrounded by enemies.

So, Planar Shepard Evil Jermalaines riding Desmondu Warbat NPCs are a go. Poaching a PCs new tactic shouldn't be done unless it's really super obvious or they tell the nearest corner of the megaverse "how they did it".

[hyzmarca]

I'm going to be in the minority here and say the only important thing is that your dungeon make sense. It should be designed so that it actually serves the purpose it was supposedly created for.

A lair shouldn't a series of encounters, it should be a place where your enemy lives and works.

A tomb shouldn't be a maze of deathtraps, it should be a place to inter the honored dead.

[fectin]

I'm going to be in the minority here and say the only important thing is that your dungeon make sense. It should be designed so that it actually serves the purpose it was supposedly created for.

A lair shouldn't a series of encounters, it should be a place where your enemy lives and works.

A tomb shouldn't be a maze of deathtraps, it should be a place to inter the honored dead.

That's actually the majority opinion.

[Judging__Eagle]

Also, not what to remove from the system; but rather what to ensure that the Mister Cavern does use properly.

Playing the game at level 6-8 is easier than actually removing lots of things from higher level play.

Honestly, that's the point of higher level play, it's not supposed to be level 6 with "bigger numbers"; it's supposed to be a different game.

[Vnonymous]

The most hilarious thing about this thread is the difference between the 4e and 3e players. The 4e player just says "reduce the options available to the players" whereas everyone else is suggesting ways to make the dungeon more entertaining and complex.

Very indicative of the differences between the two rulesets, I think.

[Antariuk]

I'm going to be in the minority here and say the only important thing is that your dungeon make sense. It should be designed so that it actually serves the purpose it was supposedly created for.

A lair shouldn't a series of encounters, it should be a place where your enemy lives and works.

A tomb shouldn't be a maze of deathtraps, it should be a place to inter the honored dead.

That's actually the majority opinion.

Depends on the system you are playing.
I like to have a bizarre, phantastical, totally non-sensical dungeon from time to time where nothing is as expected and knowledge about biology or physics doesn't help you.

[Swordslinger]

I'm going to be in the minority here and say the only important thing is that your dungeon make sense. It should be designed so that it actually serves the purpose it was supposedly created for.

A lair shouldn't a series of encounters, it should be a place where your enemy lives and works.

A tomb shouldn't be a maze of deathtraps, it should be a place to inter the honored dead.

Only you can't do that in high level games if you expect your game. Dungeons in high level campaigns have to be fortresses if you want them to be challenging at all. When you're building a high level dungeon, you're going over the top to create a challenge. Your dungeon probably isn't going to ever make any sense, because it's got to be ridiculously convoluted. You'll be using dungeons that exist on multiple planes, portals that require keyed command words to unknown locations to deter teleportation and so on.

In fact, story really needs to start taking a backseat in high level 3E games, because at this point you can forget about PCs knowing the main villain or much of anything about his lair. Keeping them in the dark is the norm. Your villains all have to be total pussies who constantly keep their identities unknown and rarely stray from their lairs. Paranoia and Tactical cowardice are a way of life and your villain better be sleeping in lead lined room every night with a ridiculous amount of wards per square inch.

That high level thinking needs to dominate everything else, because the stories that worked at low level won't work at high level anymore. Every aspect of your adventure has to be built from the ground up with high level security in mind. Because high level no longer favors the defender and favors the attacker, it should be commonplace for the villain to try to lure the PCs into attacking a false target, only to let them go home and scry/teleport them if they're not properly protected.

Whenever you use a trap, it should always be aimed at destroying magical equipment, since that's the thing that the PCs can't repair. Damaging ray spells targeting their magic items, magically targeted arrow traps that specifically target bags of holding, disjunction traps and similar things are what will wear down your players in high level games, since even if they flee the dungeon, they'll still have those items gone. Similarly, your bad guy shouldn't ever employ NPCs, and instead rely on monsters without magic items, so your PCs can't replenish themselves on his defenses. Of course, putting in cursed items may be okay if the PCs aren't using analyze dwoemer to ID their.

As for actual combat encounters. Make liberal use of beholders, simply because of their anti-magic field. A good combo is beholders plus some grappler monsters, since beholders at that level are low in CR, you can slap them down without effecting the EL of the encounter, if you care about maintaining EL guidelines.

(Also it should be noted that all these ideas can still be beaten by a party whose really well versed in high level play. If you've got one of those really experienced groups that know every loophole, the best alternative is to copy their character sheets and use that as your monster manual from now on. Throw all that cheese they're using right back at them in a series of mirror matches.)

[echoVanguard]

a bunch of bologna

The entire premise put forth in Swordslinger's post is silly. A competent content designer can provide a story that fits the challenges appropriate for high-level gamers, even considering unbalanced abilities.

echo

[name_here]

Don't you know? People never take security precautions in any sensible story!

[Judging__Eagle]

High level play isn't a person in a wooden house; or a monster or mage in a dirt, or stone, underground region. Those are examples of low and mid level play.

Eventually the walls will be fire, or everything will be ice, or underwater, or surrounded by hordes of monsters on fields of living metal (Many of the Total Annihilation 'metal world' maps could be good basis for Acheronian fields). Or have to travel through a place with perpetual darkness, twilight or daylight (srsly, that's a 1 plane campaign-arc in The Beastlands).

Past level 10 the game goes planar, and that's about it. Lower level stuff only occurs because it's easy and furthering goals. Really, characters like Elminster should only be around temporarily, spending most of their time in Arborea, or w/e plane is appropriate for the ego-tripping fantasies Ed Greenwood wanted for his Marty Stu self-insert character. It would make higher level characters much more reasonable; they don't interfere as much, because they don't have the attention to pay to the local stuff. Only real threats, like The Necromancer rising in power again, will get them active on the mortal and heroic realms.

[CCarter]

Paranoia and Tactical cowardice are a way of life and your villain better be sleeping in lead lined room every night with a ridiculous amount of wards per square inch.

A BBEG worth their salt should actually be Mind Blanked. One 8th level spell slot, 24hr duration, immune to both scrying and mental influence, and if they're carrying your "MacGuffin" you can't scry that either. This is a spell they might well be memorizing anyway even if they're not expecting scryers to come kill them since it also blocks other mental effects - even with a good Will save not a bad deal since it gives the finger to no-save effects like Ray of Idiocy.

[Archmage]

This actually ties in with the thing I had trouble with during my last 3rd edition campaign. How do you explain the existence of some of these fantastic locations, like castles of fire or entire fortresses full of walls of force, WITHOUT resorting to DM fiat? Fire everywhere in the City of Brass is one thing, but anywhere else, there's no way to build a permanent lava fortress without expending a whole pile of XP (assuming the spell effects you need are available).

Or is it assumed that sufficiently high-level people just bind efreeti and wish for everything you would want to build magic fortresses?

[K]

This actually ties in with the thing I had trouble with during my last 3rd edition campaign. How do you explain the existence of some of these fantastic locations, like castles of fire or entire fortresses full of walls of force, WITHOUT resorting to DM fiat? Fire everywhere in the City of Brass is one thing, but anywhere else, there's no way to build a permanent lava fortress without expending a whole pile of XP (assuming the spell effects you need are available).

Or is it assumed that sufficiently high-level people just bind efreeti and wish for everything you would want to build magic fortresses?

I often think about why DnD has such a hard-on for people not getting awesome fortresses. I mean, we all like flaming fortresses made of brass, but somehow no one wants to make rules for getting flaming fortresses of brass that work.

In the rules as written, even owning a fortress breaks the WBL. Frostburn even has a ice fortress for a sample adventure where you can get several million gold by Greyhawking the blue ice on the walls. I can only shake my head at a magic fortress + Artificer scenario.

I think the WBL has a lot of weird and harmful effects on the implied setting in the game. This is one.

[hyzmarca]

Only you can't do that in high level games if you expect your game. Dungeons in high level campaigns have to be fortresses if you want them to be challenging at all. When you're building a high level dungeon, you're going over the top to create a challenge. Your dungeon probably isn't going to ever make any sense, because it's got to be ridiculously convoluted. You'll be using dungeons that exist on multiple planes, portals that require keyed command words to unknown locations to deter teleportation and so on.

In high level campaigns you shift your goals to high levels. Your standard MacGuffin retrieval goes from " buy, steal, or borrow the king's scepter" to "buy, steal, or borrow Pale Night's shroud; the one that keeps her from driving you insane and destroying reality just by existing."

Pale Night's lair doesn't have to be convoluted. Just being Pale Night is enough to make the dungeon challenging.