Toward a New Version of Polymorph

[virgil]

Granting the strength & dexterity is, more or less, part of the slippery slope that caused our balance concerns inthe first place.

The intent is that Change Shape is supposed to borderline illusion based, and all it does is magically shape your body to look like your subject. Since type and the like aren't changed, you are still fundamentally yourself while under the effects of Change Shape, so bestowing the inherent strength of the form you take is inconsistent.

I can see modifying the stats based on the change in size from the original, in which case the stat buff is completely independent on the form you take (barring size).

[NineInchNall]

Meh, I don't really think that's a slippery slope. Very few things are slippery slopes in the logical sense, actually. A logical slippery slope is akin to a recursive algorithm that lacks a terminating condition.

Str & Dex cause few problems and fit with the whole idea of taking on the form of, say, a horse or an ox.

[User3]

I have to agree with virgileso: Strength and Dex are intensely problematic. They aren't as troublesome as, say, granting Constitution, but it's still a bad idea.

Note that I have no problem granting bonuses to Strength and Dex. If you want to perform the elementary math required to figure out what the appropriate racial Strength bonus for a form is, and then add that as a bonus, I think I could live with that. But simply granting stats is problem, because it gives us the 5 Strength Wizard who spends all day in Firbolg form and winds up with the same Strength as the 18 Strength Fighter.

--d.

[NineInchNall]

That seems more a problem with the Fighter. If the spell is to provide a combat option comparable in efficacy to that of casting, oh, solid fog or Evard's black tentacles, then it's going to have to give the Wizard level-appropriate fighting ability.

[Cielingcat]

The Fighter isn't really a "Fighter" anymore so much as he's a tactical tactician who uses tactics tactically. If the Wizard can match him in brute Str, he still doesn't have the options available through [Combat] feats or Fighter special abilities, or even full BAB (which actually means something when you have Combat feats).

Tactic.

[NineInchNall]

You didn't say tactician anywhere.

[Cielingcat]

Fixed.

[NineInchNall]

Sweet.

[User3]

Oh, I see, you're thinking about it in a ToB context rather than a default 3.5 context. I haven't studied the ToB material close enough to say whether that's likely to be problematic or not under those rules, so I won't have an opinion.

--d.

[Cielingcat]

I was thinking about it in a Races of War context, actually.

[User3]

... what was I smoking when I typed that? ToB indeed. But yes, the Frank'n'K material was what I was thinking, regardless of what my rebellious fingers did.

--d.

[Draco_Argentum]

Not granting any str/dex would conflict with the desire to change into a bear or whatever.

Simply exchanging stats is bad because it makes physical stats dump stats.

A bonus would be fine. Make it an enhancement bonus so you can't layer buffs. That would also help prevent fighters from needing to be polyed if you ignore the "changing other people's form makes you an asshole" line of thought.

[virgil]

If you really think that polymorph should grant bonuses to Strength and Dexterity, I don't think it should be horribly based on what form you take, as that just sets up the original problem of Polymorph getting better with every single new monster you ever create. It's already got a little bit of that from the innate natural weapon and movement aspects, but I'd like to restrain bonuses as much as possible.

Just have any and all bonuses be based on size changes, using the table in the SRD. I'll cook up the clean looking spell format of this later (likely tomorrow), and I'll include changes to Alter Self & Shapechange for consistency.

This allows people to turn into either a troll or a bear for the same level of effectiveness, and you don't feel punished for not turning into a ugly old lady.

[Draco_Argentum]

Well yeah, the forms should be arbitrary. Make a menu of abilities and let people pick however many you deem balenced. Troll, bear and some totally crazy thing the caster invented should all be options.

[NineInchNall]

1177054306[/unixtime]]If you really think that polymorph should grant bonuses to Strength and Dexterity, I don't think it should be horribly based on what form you take, as that just sets up the original problem of Polymorph getting better with every single new monster you ever create. It's already got a little bit of that from the innate natural weapon and movement aspects, but I'd like to restrain bonuses as much as possible.

I like to think of polymorph as a pressure valve of sorts, a stopgap, if you will. It should keep monster designers honest. (It doesn't, but that's a problem with monster designers.) If an X HD monster is inappropriate for a level X character to mimic via polymorph, then either the creature is too powerful for its HD (the paper tiger monsters, like frickin' pixies) or it's inappropriate at any level (Zodar). It's the same type of thing that enters into Frank & K's playable races rant in Races of War.




With that in mind, the only thing that new monsters add is the occasional utility ability. There are already tons of forms that provide movement, combat ability, utility, etc., so what might cause real issues is a monster that is too much for its HD. *cough* hydra *cough*

[virgil]

Y'know, if you really want to do a menu of stuff to choose from, go right ahead. Or just use the innumerable examples already created. I consider the menu option to be overly complicated, more like doing your taxes even if it's very comprehensive.

If you just want a pure combat buff, then I think WotC's current Dragonform/Trollform spell style stuff is a good side option, since it gets rid of the broken stacking benefits (best as a surprise tactic against non-melee types with the swift casting).

My version of polymorph? I want you to be able to turn into stuff that looks cool, and I want you to not feel punished for not turning into a stupid looking monster when it's used for combat, and I don't want it to be an end-all be-all combat buff.

And with my version of Polymorph, it's a high quality Enlarge Person.

Alter Self
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min/level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, and no more than one size category different from your normal size. This functions as the Change Shape special ability.


Polymorph
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you can change into any of the following creature types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. You cannot choose a form smaller than diminutive or larger than Huge.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if ithad rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject futher).

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

The subject changes in size, their statistics change from their original form, treating any changes as size bonuses/penalties. Refer to the Size Change table for what your final bonuses are.

Change Shape
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
* The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
* The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

[Catharz]

What's wrong with the polymorph in Dungeonomicon?

[NineInchNall]

1177089612[/unixtime]]Changes to Constitution do not change your hit point total in any way, only to checks and Fortitude saves.

Tres broken.

[virgil]

Y'know what? Fine. Let Constitution give you your hit points.

[User3]

People might want to see this: metamorphosis. It's psionics, but could be a good read.

[Catharz]

1177090833[/unixtime]]What's wrong with the polymorph in Dungeonomicon?

I'm serious about this. Polymorph should either be complete character replacement or a list of fixed abilities you can gain. Either you become a specific kind of creature, or you morph your shape until you resemble anything you can imagine and gain a few abilities that we can imagine.

[virgil]

Why must I ignore any ideas I have and go with what someone else has done?

If you look at one of the Dungeonomicon's options, my spells are fairly similar to Frank & K's ideas (version 2 in particular). Their arguments and opinions aren't invalidated, I'm accepting them as good points to consider. I'm just writing it in a format I'm more comfortable with (with differences).

[Fwib]

1177105128[/unixtime]]People might want to see this: metamorphosis. It's psionics, but could be a good read.

Yike! too long!

[User3]

Yike! too long!

Heh, it's long as hell, but, well, doesn't it try to handle shapechanging? If faithfully, it must.

[Cielingcat]

Oh god, that's almost 9000 words. How the hell do they expect anyone to use that in a game?