FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1106157409[/unixtime]]
So yeah, if you rip open the engine of the game and try to reassemble it to get polymorph, you see the real insides of the game - and you can see that the flawed premises are so prevalent that the only reason it runs at all is duct tape and attached hamster wheels.
My girlfriend has a similar analogy: D&D, at it's core, is like the Ork technology of the Warhammer universe in that it only works as long as the Orks believe it works, if that makes any sense. I totally agree. I've "torn apart" the d20 system for years, I know (but not necessarily remember at any given moment) how the whole thing works. Recently with my interest in projects such as classless d20 systems (difficult but possible) and these Tome series from Frank and K, it's like buying a new computer, using it for a few years, suddenly realizing the computer needs a RAM upgrade or something similar, opening the CPU, and seeing that it does operate and compute by little imps and pixies writing streams of code on long bits of paper. Imagine the shock, and it would be about as close as I have felt years ago. The novelty of "oh wow, so this is how they did it" has worn off and all that remains is the desire for change....
Oh, and go for brevity in whatever new Polymorph comes about. Redundant for me to mention but yeah, longer is NOT better. New players I meet tend to skip long spells entirely, claiming that they "take too long to read" and "I'll forget what it says" IMHO I think the Alternate Form traits should be used, in some way. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
Isn't that what they to do to balance polymorph as it stands? Except there are always some of us willing to read those long passages and figure out wtf they're talking about - and then we go and totally change the play paradigm because that long passage was actually the road to Real Ultimate Power.
I agree -- long spells are totally boring. It's too bad that they're usually the legacy spells that are way overpowered.
Replacing yourself with a creature CR-3 of your level should be pretty well balanced anywhichway you slice it. You're not going to outshine anyone in combat (especially not RoW combat), and defensive abilities (read: Regeneration) simply mean a pass in combat or obstacle for you at that point. Ok, you're cheap to heal, or you can walk through the lava -- good for you. That makes a reasonable, if complicated level 4 spell (complicated in number of options you have).
If by "pretty well balanced" you mean "pretty well not level appropriate by definition", then yeah, it's certainly that.
CR is essentially a measure of a creature's impact on a given combat. Characters of level X should be expected to have the same impact as a creature of CR X. By casting one of those total-replacement-with-CR-much-less-than-your-level spells, the caster is essentially choosing to contribute less than he could otherwise be expected to.
That is inherently underpowered.
Pretty well balanced would be turning into something of CR X. You could make an argument for CR X-1 due to buffs cast long before the shapeshifting spell is cast.
RE: Untapped Potential metamorphosis rules.
Yeah, totally fucked in the ass. It's one of the things that makes me want to smack Tempest about. Then he goes and posts nicely done numerical analyses that show how ToB is not broken or overpowered, and I forgive him.
Temporarily.
EDIT: Oh, wait. That's not the metamorphosis revision from Untapped Potential, that's something by Lycanthromancer.
Huh. It's actually exactly what so many people are talking about (menu of abilities). It's damn long, though.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Well, CR is supposed to represent combat ability against a spread of different characters and monsters[1], so what you lose in raw power, you make up for in versatility. Seriously. Maybe not at CR-3, but at CR, you get versatility *and* level appropriate power -- you can't have both and be balanced. I don't think you get to keep buffs up while in Monsterform, anyway.
There are probably CR-3 monster that can own a large enough fraction of the monsters that it's probably a decent spell, but I could be wrong. Works better as a solo wizard when you can choose defensive attributes as opposed to offensive attributes and actually come out ahead.
[1] Honestly, monsters are going to be "balanced" against players, and we can hope they'll go 50/50 with other monsters, but I wouldn't make that bet.
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1177112762[/unixtime]]Isn't that what they to do to balance polymorph as it stands? Except there are always some of us willing to read those long passages and figure out wtf they're talking about - and then we go and totally change the play paradigm because that long passage was actually the road to Real Ultimate Power.
Then you post the Cliff Notes version on messageboards and hilarity ensues.
Wait, someone at Wizards told me that CR-3 was not the equivalent of a character of that level. I was pretty sure otherwise. Well mildy comforting, glad I didn't get convinced out of it or w/e.
Polymorph needs to be limited in the list of possible choices, too. "Dumpster diving" is not only ridiculous in a game sense but also time consuming for all players in a session where the caster flips through, redoes stats, bla bla blaaa. Where is that wizard getting knowledge of an outsider he's never even read about, let alone seen?
Limit to "observed personally, or studied" with studied implying that the caster has done some research, just as if they were a Wiz scribing a scroll. Sure it's just a speedbump but it's also fun to go hunt for a library, college, or treasure that allows the caster to add a new form to their repetoire. Also, limit the number of forms 'readied at any given moment in a day' to their Spellcraft ranks or something similar. I found some parallels between monster types and Knowledge skills, too. Could use matching skills-to-monsters as a control method, also allowing casters to become specialists in animal, undead, certain outsider types and so on.
IMO the best way to deal with the 'prior knowledge' angle is to say that if the player can show you the relevant stat block at the time of casting, the character has the appropriate knowledge. It's a metagame solution that easily deals with the slowdown issues.
I think being able to turn into any CR-3 creature you want is perfectly fine and level-appropriate, because you turn into the right kind of creature for that level.
Why? Because you can turn into the perfect opponent for the challenge in front of you. It's a fact that many monsters have their weak points, doing better in certain situations and poorly in others, and being able to tailor your form to counter your challenge is a significant problem. What that (CR-3) limitation does is firmly place the spell into the area of 'counter-tactic' and not a mainstay.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1177138764[/unixtime]]I think being able to turn into any CR-3 creature you want is perfectly fine and level-appropriate, because you turn into the right kind of creature for that level.
Why? Because you can turn into the perfect opponent for the challenge in front of you. It's a fact that many monsters have their weak points, doing better in certain situations and poorly in others, and being able to tailor your form to counter your challenge is a significant problem. What that (CR-3) limitation does is firmly place the spell into the area of 'counter-tactic' and not a mainstay.
MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1177153480[/unixtime]]
This reasoning gave us LA, though.
Well, no.
Remember that this reasoning presupposes that you have a primary character (at his CR) and then some other form you can turn into, which is weaker, but possibly more specialized, thus the CR - 3.
You can't allow people to turn into creatures of their CR, because then they're both specialized and of equivalent power.
I do not follow. While monsters go 50/50 on average with other monsters of the same CR, but you won't turn into an average member, you get to choose *at the time of the casting*, so you're trading raw power for situational power. I mean, having a spell that granted a single alternate form at the right level would be fine -- gnollform as a first level spell would be fine, I expect. But you can only have power or versatility, not both, with a single spell.
The fact is, sometimes CR-3 monster can do CR appropriate things against some monsters. It's not going to be a win-all, though.
AlphaNerd wrote:The fact is, sometimes CR-3 monster can do CR appropriate things against some monsters. It's not going to be a win-all, though.
And choosing at the time of each casting the most appropriate form may be a win-all against every "sucker" monster - and there are LOTS of them.
Also, Lycanthromancer's rewrite may have had to be that long to cover one the theoretical approaches - menus of abilities. Besides, once a guy reads that once or twice, he probably can choose which options to take, and read only those before manifesting. After all, most peoples' stories make me suppose almost everyone plays with the books at their sides, so printing one rewrite doesn't seem particularly painful. Finally, it's probably that or "you turn wholesale into something" - feel free to choose one (I'm not denying the latter may actually be the better option, though).
LA is of a 'feel-good' design. It is extremely relative to the judger of a monster's ability and unfortunately little to do with the actual CR. I hate it.
What I think is our problem is that we have too many abilities in the monster manual and we want a fill-in spell (ala Wish) to allow us access to them... But without breaking the game. The problem with this direction is that it's totally broken unless the monsters are designed for it... And they never have, and probably never will be.
One way to deal with that was to make things you can't turn into - unique creatures, templates, etc. But that doesn't work in the end.
Another thing is that we're doing it with one spell. One spell may scale, but more than one spell is easier to balance.
My problem with 3.5 Poly is that there is no longer any access to: Disguising as a Race or Creature; Permanent/Dismissable changes;
And I hate monomorphs because they have no use in the game - they only work as flavour abilities, even though they may have some amount of power.
Lastly, I never see spells higher than level 4 in players' hands.
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, 6 see text Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: Self Duration: 10 minutes per level(D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No
This spells changes your form, effectively disguising you and altering your abilities according to one of several of the following packages. Casting Polymorph again while under the effects of a previous Polymorph ends the current effect. The appearance of your Polymophed form is limited only by the general size and body type of the package used, you can emulate the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature(giving you a +10 to your disguise check), or create an appearance that is purely a fabrication of your imagination. If Polymorph occupies a sixth level or higher slot you may change packages and appearance with one round of Concentration; when changing from one package to another you lose any remaining temporary hp granted by your current package and gain the temporary hp, if any, of your new package. Regardless of package chosen you lose natural armor, natural weapons, Extraordinary movement modes, and Extraordinary senses of your normal form while Polymorphed.
Combat, Humanoid: Size changes to Large Natural Reach set to 10 feet Gain 3 temporary hit points per caster level Gain +10 size bonus to strength Gain -2 size penalty to dexterity(minimum 1) Retains humanoid form, and as such is able to wield weapons, wear slotted equipment, and cast spells as normal Equipment resizes to fit new form Base Land Speed is set to 40ft.; gain Climb Speed 30ft. or Swim Speed 30ft. Gain Natural Armor bonus equal to one half caster level Gain Slam attack for 1d8+1.5*Str mod damage; Slam benefits from BaB based iterative attacks as a manufactured weapon would
Combat, Monstrous: Size Changes to Large or Huge; your choice Natural Reach set to 10 feet Gain 4 temporary hit points per caster level Gain +12 size bonus to strength Gain -4 size penalty to dexterity(minimum 1) New form is non-humanoid and incapable of speech, and as such is unable to wield manufactured weapons, wear humanoid armor, wear most slotted equipment, and cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components Equipment ineligible to be worn by new form melds and becomes non-functional, any other equipment resizes as necessary to fit new form Base Land Speed is set to 50ft. or Base Land Speed is set to 20ft. and Fly Speed 60ft.(average) is gained or Base Land Speed is set to 30ft. and Climb Speed 30ft. is gained or Base Land Speed is set to 40ft. and a Swim Speed 40ft. is gained Gain Natural Armor bonus equal to caster level Gain a number of natural weapons equal to one half caster level; the form and nature of these natural weapons is up to you. A maximum of two natural weapons may be considered primary these do 2d6+Str mod in damage and use your full attack bonus, all other natural weapons do 1d8+.5*Str mod in damage and use your full attack bonus -5. At caster level 8 gain Rend At caster level 10 gain Improved Grab and Swallow Whole; swallowed opponents take Primary Natural weapon damage plus acid damage equal to 1d6*.5caster level every round at the beginning of your turn. You can be cut out of with a light slashing or piercing weapon doing a total 25+ damage. You may only swallow creatures one size category smaller than you or smaller. At caster level 12 gain a number of Rake attacks equal to one quarter caster level; rake attacks do 1d6+.5*Str mod in damage and use your full attack bonus -5 At caster level 14 gain Pounce
Scout, Humanoid: Size Changes to Tiny, Small, or Medium Tiny size sets Natural Reach to 0 feet Gain +4 size bonus to dexterity Gain +6 competence bonus to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen Retains humanoid form, and as such is able to wield weapons, wear slotted equipment, and cast spells as normal Equipment resizes to fit new form Base Land Speed set to 30ft.; Gain 20ft. Climb Speed; Gain 30ft. Swim Speed; Gain 20ft. Burrow Speed; Gain 50ft. Fly Speed, Good Maneuverability Gain Darkvision 120ft.; Gain Superior Low-light Vision; Gain Tremorsense 60ft.; Gain Blindsense(sound and scent based) 60ft.
Scout, Monstrous: Size Changes to Diminutive, Tiny, or Small Natural Reach set to 0 feet Gain +8 size bonus to dexterity Gain +8 competence bonus to Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen New form is non-humanoid and incapable of speech, and as such is unable to wield manufactured weapons, wear humanoid armor, wear most slotted equipment, and cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components Equipment ineligible to be worn by new form melds and becomes non-functional, any other equipment resizes as necessary to fit new form Base Land Speed set to 30ft.; Gain 30ft. Climb Speed; Gain 30ft. Swim Speed; Gain 30ft. Burrow Speed; Gain 60ft. Fly Speed, Perfect Maneuverability Gain Natural Weapon with Poison; initial damage: unconscious for 1d6 hours, secondary damage: none, DC is Con based Gain Darkvision 150ft.; Gain Superior Low-light Vision; Gain Tremorsense 80ft.; Gain Blindsense(sound and scent based) 80ft.; Gain Blindsight(sound based) 60ft.
Disguise: Size changes to Small, Medium, or Large Gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level Gain 6 attribute points that can be placed in either strength or dexterity, or a mix of the two Gains a skill bonus equal to caster level that can be placed into any combination of strength, dexterity, or wisdom based skills that can be used untrained Retains humanoid form, and as such is able to wield weapons, wear slotted equipment, and cast spells as normal Equipment resizes to fit new form Base Land Speed is set to 40 ft. or Land Speed is set to 30ft. and Climb Speed 30ft. is gained or Base Land Speed is set to 30ft. and a Swim Speed 30ft. is gained Gain Dark Vision 60ft. or Superior Low-light Vision or Scent 30ft. Optionally gain natural armor equal to one quarter caster level Optionally gain up to three natural weapons, any or all of which may be considered primary or secondary
Travel, Humanoid: Size Changes to Small or Medium Gain immunity to Fatigue and Exhaustion Gain immunity to non-lethal damage incurred from a forced march Retains humanoid form, and as such is able to wield weapons, wear slotted equipment, and cast spells as normal Equipment Resizes to fit new form Base Land Speed is set to 50 ft.; Gain 50ft. Climb Speed; Gain 50 ft. Swim Speed; Gain 30ft. Burrow Speed, Burrow Speed 20ft. if you want to leave a stable 5 foot tunnel behind you; Gain 80 ft. Fly Speed, Poor Maneuverability Gain Tremorsense 30ft.
Travel, Monstrous: Size Changes to Medium or Large Gain +6 bonus to Strength Gain immunity to Fatigue and Exhaustion Gain immunity to non-lethal damage incurred from a forced march New form is non-humanoid and incapable of speech, and as such is unable to wield manufactured weapons, wear humanoid armor, wear most slotted equipment, and cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components Equipment ineligible to be worn by new form melds and becomes non-functional, any other equipment resizes as necessary to fit new form Base Land Speed is set to 80 ft.; Gain 60ft. Climb Speed; Gain 60 ft. Swim Speed; Gain 50ft. Burrow Speed, Burrow Speed 30ft. if you want to leave a stable 10 foot tunnel behind you; Gain 150 ft. Fly Speed, Average Maneuverability Gain Tremorsense 50ft.; Gain Blindsense(sound based) 100ft.
AlphaNerd at [unixtime wrote:1177861761[/unixtime]]
Calibron wrote: If Polymorph occupies a fifth level or higher slot you may change packages and appearance with one round of Concentration.
Gain 3 temporary hit points per caster level
So, if I change each round, do I get temp hp each time?
Also, what is one round of Concentration? Does that involve a skill check, can it be disturbed? What action type?
Yes you get temporary hit points each time, but you also lose them when you stop using the package that gives them out(basically you can reset them to the maximum the package allows every time you change); I'll have to specify that in the spell description. EDIT: okay fixed.
One round of concentration, as opposed to a full round action of concentration, is you start concentrating at the beginning of your turn, taking no other actions, and continue to do so until the beginning of your next turn. I think that's defined in the basic rules, but I could be wrong. If you're not interrupted there's no skill roll required; if you are interrupted it's the normal DC for concentrating on a spell of that level in those circumstances.
