Powerful Build?

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:51 pm

Just the other day I was discussing with my pals about various racials and the so-called balance of 3.5 (they're only familiar with 3.5 and Pathfail, because I haven't gotten the time to introduce the Tome series to them yet) and while discussing a few races (my homebrew included), the players voiced their opinion on one aspect of a certain racial.

I do not recall their exact reasonings (I will tell of them when I get reminded), but they all were on the lines of saying "using larger weapons without penalty doesn't make much sense" when compared to the rest of the given bonuses of the racial. Now I found this a bit confusing, but I want to know what you guys think. Should Powerful Build only affect Grappling and other such things, or should you also get to be the guy wielding a huge-ass axe or sword with it?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:07 pm

What's the problem with using larger weapons? It will likely increase the damage by 2.5 to 3.5 points per swing. It's nice, but it's not that awesome. Also, it doesn't really scale or anything.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:12 pm

It totally depends on the creature in question. Why aren't they just large sized?

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:16 pm

Because playing Large-sized wrecks balance even more than just having Powerful Build and a few otherwise mediocre racials. (My race was calculated as having +0 LA)

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:49 pm

In that case, wielding oversize weapons makes sense. Your new race exists in a kindred size slot to dwarves.

The balance point is great swords that do 3d6 and long bows that do 2d6. Which is good, but not really game-breaking.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:03 pm

Relative to having Powerful Build, it just means that you take up 4 squares instead of 1, get -1 to AC and +5' to reach.

Reach is nice, but it honestly doesn't really seem like that much of a big deal.

I certainly wouldn't say it wrecks balance.

Searching the Den led me to this topic on the old forums, comparing the Savage Species half-ogre to the orc, which sums it up better than I could:

http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-v ... thread=121

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:28 pm

Taking up 4 squares does break the game, in the sense that it makes the character less playable.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:42 pm

And some groups have a mandatory "You must be this stealthy to ride" tag, where the -4 to Hide is a problem.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:58 pm

There's some valid points right there, and I got to the weirdest conclusion ever with a pal. He reasoned that a character shouldn't get the full advantages of Large size without actually BEING Large, and suggested reducing the +4 bonuses to Grapple and Trip (and the other checks) to +2, though to me that seems unfair when you look at Dwarves and their racials for example. But yeah, it does seem like a nice deal to get some of the bonuses but none of the drawbacks.

CCarter · Post by **CCarter** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:53 pm

The 3.5 Powerful Build racial ability was preceded by the Jotunbrud (giant blood) feat in 3.0 Races of Faerun, which give the virtual size category increase but which didn't give larger-size weapon use. I thought this was OK as a feat since lots of people enjoy playing 7-foot-plus barbarians and you might as well get some mechanical support for the concept. The bonus on grapple checks and some other manuevers, and being immune to some size-based effects like Snatch is handy.

With powerful build as a a racial feature you're basically getting that, plus Monkey Grip for free without the -2 penalty. So in regular 3.5 terms, you're getting about two free feats.... Not that Monkey Grip is actually worthwhile in 3.5 since Power Attack gives comparable damage at -2 and also scales better.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:14 am

Yeah, it's a decent 3.0 feat plus a shitty 3.5 feat without the penalty, so... a decent 3.0 feat plus a fairly shitty 3.5 feat. Let's all dance with joy.

And that Nifty thread was good for a laugh. I couldn't bring myself to follow into the WotC one though, it would be too painful.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:05 am

Koumei wrote:And that Nifty thread was good for a laugh. I couldn't bring myself to follow into the WotC one though, it would be too painful.

Also, all of the links to old WotC threads are broken. For like a year or more I think.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:59 am

I've always liked Powerful Build myself, it's an awesome mix of being Large-esque, without actually being big. It's like heroic strength, or super strength esque, and all the more stuff like that to be supported. Also helps the Goliath race that has it, actually sounds pretty dynamic theme wise and all that.

Aside, Powerful Build is fine, especially considering non-casters are pretty laughable, them having this will change little the balance of the game. Wielding large weapons is cool, and don't see why that should be questioned in heroic fantasy, I'm all for Giant Swords and stuff.

Reminds me of the Tome feat of Juggernaut, it's got cool idea going, even if had to turn Breaking Object checks into "just do 30 damage" or whatever. Even that Tome feat isn't going to break any games, and I suggest that the original poster show them this feat, maybe then they'll change their tune about things like Powerful Build.

Lastly, wouldn't showing them Tome be as easy as Linking them to the PDF? Can't see how that'd be time consuming after all...

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:22 am

Aryxbez wrote: Lastly, wouldn't showing them Tome be as easy as Linking them to the PDF? Can't see how that'd be time consuming after all...

Actually, I have tried to introduce the Tome of Battle (And the Tomes...) to our games on numerous occasions, but every time I have tried something else came up and then I had to leave it for another time. And if I kept jabbering on about stuff in it, they'd get bored with it. Anyway, in the end, it seems that the conversation I had with the players implied that I don't need to change the Powerful Build ability in any way. So that means Goliaths, Half-Giants and my homebrew race can all still be epic, almost gigantic (compared to the other Medium races at least) people who wield huge-ass swords or axes while kicking ass.

K · Post by K » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:58 am

I'm not entirely sure why anyone cares about what ends up being a few points in damage per hit. Large weapon's most impressive characteristic is just how little they matter.