Cheese Updates, 3.5

[Username17]

I can't find where it says this.

You can't own or use Magic Items. Ever. Not even for one round and then give it back to a party member. Especially not for the 24 hours it would have to be in your possession to make the weakest of magic items.

-Username17

[Jack_Lurch]

You can't own or use Magic Items. Ever. Not even for one round and then give it back to a party member. Especially not for the 24 hours it would have to be in your possession to make the weakest of magic items.

But when you are making it, it's not a magic item yet. It has no charges, can't be activated, or whatever. So as long as you got rid of it within six seconds of completion, you haven't owned the magic item for one round.

Now I can kind of see what you mean if it was a magic weapon or magic armor you were creating, because that would require you to have masterwork weapons and armor lying around for weeks. But if the masterwork stuff was donated by your homies, and the ascetic donated the XP and Feat, I don't see where it would be a problem.

But consider an ascetic that has ranks in Craft, Shoemaking. If the Salvation Army gathers donations of leather, glue, and rubber, and asks the ascetic to do the labor, is he forbidden?

-Jack

[Username17]

Yo fullfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions:

Now, spell components are on the list, but item crafting materials, or for that matter show making materials are not.

cannot own magic items

There's no out there. There's no "if less than 6 seconds" - there's nothing.

Remember the bullet and the pepper spray example, the path of "good" as described in the BoED has absolutely nothing to d with making sense or helping people, and everything to do with slavish adherence to completely random and arbitrary rules. You can carry diamonds around, but you can't make shoes - not even for the purpose of helping others by providing them with shodding.

After all, the argument "I'm doing this to help people" is exactly the same argument as the justification for picking up a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, which you also can't use for no good reason. In the BoED, the only time the ends justify the means is the use of lethal force. If using lethal force would, to your knowledge, produce a better result than doing nothing, lethal force is authorized. However, if there is any other thing you could be doing that would produce a result equal to or better than the use of lethal force, then the ends do not justify the means and you have to check on your shockingly large and arbitrary list of dos and don'ts to see if you can do it (which you probably can't). Being good is like being autistic apparently - all about making a system for decision making which, while completely insane, is at least sufficiently rigid that people who have no empathy can carry it out to the letter.

That's probably why "Vow of Obedience" and "Vow of Chastity" are both "exalted" feats, even though complete binding to the word of your masters is the provence of Vampires, and the inability to get laid is the provence of Liches. Why would becoming more like the Undead make you specifically "exalted" unless "exalted" status was basically another form of madness indistinguishable on the ground from Chaos or Evil?

And who could forget "Vow of Purity" - where you make other people do all the yucky stuff that needs doing. On what planet is refusing to do your share of the work that you don't want to do considered "good"?

-Username17

[fbmf]

Okay, what about contributing the experience component, and letting someone else contribute the gold and feat?

What if you had the feat?

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

What about it? You still can't possess or use material goods. That would include assisting the creation of a magic item as that incvolves you "using" the material goods involved (for the entire period of crafting, actually).

Is that retarded? Of course it is! But so is the concept that it is somehow advancing the cause of good to refuse to use a Wand of Remove Disease on sick orphans.

The vow system is about making stupid arbitrary trade-offs for more power. That's the whole point. The trade-offs are completely arbitrary and there is no way aorund them just because you are advancing the cause of good as you see it. It's not about what's best for people, it's about checking a bunch of boxes. If you can't check a bunch of boxes, you can't do it. End of discussion.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Your ascetic character can't just stand there, you the player mark off XP, and the ascetic character never do anything but stand there and supervise someone else with the feat and gold make a magic item?

If he just contributes XP, he's not using the tools to make the item. He may not even have the craft skill.

And it still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the ascetic sorceror can use limited wish to replicate Greater Resistance and then make it permanent.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

Your ascetic character can't just stand there, you the player mark off XP, and the ascetic character never do anything but stand there and supervise someone else with the feat and gold make a magic item?

Of course not! While game mechanically you might usefully think of it in terms of simply marking off the XP and moving on with your life - within the game you are supposed to "work on" the project for at least 8 hours a day if you are contributing anything towards its production. And since I submit that you can't "work on it" without "using it" and you are forbidden from "using it" - you can't contribute anything towards item creation. Ever.

And it still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the ascetic sorceror can use limited wish to replicate Greater Resistance and then make it permanent.

Of course he can. Why wouldn't he be able to? He can't use Magic Items, but there's nothing that forbids him from getting the powers of magic items by other means. Heck, that's what the entire feat structure does.

-Username17

[Psifon]

and the inability to get laid is the provence of Liches. -Username17

What are you talking about Frank? Liches can get laid! Have you forgotten the "lich-loved" feat?

[Username17]

Have you forgotten the "lich-loved" feat?

Of course not, I have it. However, in a classic Bill Clintonesque game of sleight of hand - I would hasten to point out that just because you are commiting perverted sex acts with the dead, does not mean that you meet the legal defintion of sex.

Thus, you can totally mung some corpse - or even drill some penetration holes in some lich - and that lich still hasn't been laid. Sure, you've had some perverse sexual gratification at its expense - but it hasn't gotten anything out of the deal. That's why there's no "mortal-loved" feat for liches to take.

-Username17

[Username17]

How to get a butt-load of PrC levels quickly

Step One: Be alive. For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that you are 4th level, and thus have about 7,000 XP.

Step Two: Get bitten by a Were Bear. This gives you 3 levels of level adjustment, and 6 levels of animal - you still only have 7,000 XP, but you have a BAB of +8, 10 hit dice, and count as a 13th level character for many purposes.

Step Three: Lose a level. Get level drained and fail that save. You automatically lose an animal hit die.

Step Four: Cast Restoration. You now get back your level, and have the minimum amoun of XP required to be 13th level (78,000 XP). You can take this level as anything you want - so I suggest some PrC you've been lusting after (such as Frenzied Berserker).

Step Five: Cure Lycanthropy. All your level allowance goes away, but you are still a 13th level character - so you get 8 class levels in anything you qualify for - or just advance the PrC you took the first level in because the prereqs only apply for the first level.

So in five easy steps you can go from a 4th level Barbarian fighting a CR 5 encounter to a 13th level character with a normally impossible 9 levels of Frenzied Berserker without passing through any of the intermediary steps.

Sure, the ECL system is screwed when you try to use it - but look at how fun it can be when you abuse it instead!

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

B-b-but where the hell is my gear!?



TA

[Josh_Kablack]

This is kinda weak cheese, but it's core only and it's probably a good starting point for a real piece of cheese:

Start with at least a 14 Wisdom. Play an elf. Take level 1 as ranger, selecting "Human" as your favored enemy. level 2 as wizard and levels 3,4 and 5 as ranger. Select an owl, (or hawk) as your familiar, and select the seemingly worthless Endurance and Skill Focus: Spot as your feats. Take your 6th level as a Horizon Walker, selecting your favored terrain as "Plains". Spend 2,500 gp on Eyes of the eagle. You are now a 6th level character with +27 to Spot most of the time, a +30 to spot stuff in shadows and a +31 to spot humans in shadows. And if you end up on an important watch, that's when you buy a few scrolls of Heroism

(+2 Stat, +2 Elf, +9 ranks, +3 Focus, +2 Familiar, +4 terrain)
+3 conditional, +2 conditional, +1 conditional

[Thoth_Amon]

Is the gnome paladin still viable in 3.5? With smaller weapon damage etc?

TA

[Lago_AM3P]

Small characters themselves got weaker all around (especially the awesome goblin paladin)... but since mounted combat got stronger, due to leadership explicitly extending to paladin mounts and the stupidly crazy power attack changes, yes, they're still viable.

I'd be more likely to play one now than I did before, in fact.

A level 5 character dishing out 3d6+39 (or MORE, I haven't even thrown in smitin's) damage per attack? That kicks ass, dawg.

[User3]

Can you even smite during a charge? Smite says "with one normal melee attack." If charge is a normal melee attack, then what the hell is an abnormal melee attack?

[da_chicken]

Sunder, trip, disarm, whirlwind attack.

[Username17]

Whirlwind is actually a series of normal melee attacks.

But yes, you can't Smite during a trip, grapple, or disarm.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

Has the advancement of the small Cavalier changed since 3.0?

I am having trouble avoiding an xp penalty (he said shamefacedly.)

TA

[Username17]

Not really.

You want 5 levels of Paladin if you want the "special mount" - which if you want to teleport around, you do.

After that, you have a BAB of +5 and qualify for Halfling Outrider (or Wolf Rider, if you are a Goblin), or Templar. Halfling Outrider is nice because it lets you qualify for Devoted Defender. Templar is nice because it is amazingly awesome.


So if your progression looks something like:

Paladin Mounted Combat
Paladin
Paladin Mounted Archery
Paladin
Paladin
Halfing Outrider Weapon Focus: Lance; Alertness
.
.
.
And so on. Note that Halfling Outrider stacks with Paladin for the purposes of your mount.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

Cavalier improves your mount as well, but Devoted Defender and Templar do not. Is Cavalier worth any investment?

TA

[fbmf]

What's so great about Devoted Defender?

Game On,
fbmf

[Thoth_Amon]

but since mounted combat got stronger, due to leadership explicitly extending to paladin mounts <snip>, yes, they're still viable.

What and where is this?

Thanks,

TA

[Username17]

What's so great about Devoted Defender?

Your "charge" can be your mount.

Is Cavalier worth any investment?

Not really. Neither the Deadly Charge ability nor the Burst of Speed ability are particularly good - and the Ride Bonus doesn't stack with the Ride Bonus from Halfling Outrider (and in the long run is not as good).

Full Mounted Attack was awesome in 3rd edition - but in 3.5 is just kind of retarded. I know that what I want to do when I'm a 14th level lance specialist with Spirited Charge is to take a Full Attack (+14/+9/+4) instead of performing a spirited Charge manuver that goes off at my highest attack bonus and does triple damage (or more). Oh right, no I don't, because I do more damage per round when I just charge - an ability I've had since before I qualified for this class in the first place.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

When you are small on a medium mount, do you get the +1 from attacking from above? Just curious. I am slowly becoming disenchanted with the Sir Eppididimous character.

TA

[Username17]

You only get the +1 higher ground bonus if your mount is larger than your target. However, you get the +1 Small Attacker bonus all the time.

Remember, Halfling Outrider is only 5 levels long - and its final ability allows you to charge people while mounted twice in a single round.

At 10th level you are a Paladin 5/Outrider 5 - your Ride Bonus is about +25. You have the Leap From the Saddle ability, here's how it works:

1> Your Blink Dog Special Mount unblinks.
2> You charge your target with spirited charge and Power Attack (6 points of extra damage per attack bonus sacrificed).
3> You make a DC 20 Ride Check to jump off of your mount and stab someone with all of the bonuses of your previous charge attack.
4> You make a DC 20 Ride Check to jump back on to your mount.
5> Your Blink Dog Special Mount Dimension Doors to a distant location.
6> Your Blink Dog Special Mount turns Blink back on.

Any small character can have the minimum feats to make it awesome (Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Mounted Archery, and Power Attack) - and you end up attacking twice for triple damage every round while having a 50% miss chance on enemy turns and staying beyond the charge range of most enemies at all times.

There's not a whole lot for you to go on to after that, which is a problem, but few games actually go past 10th level and you are handing out the kind of damage we like to see on barbarians 5 levels higher than you.

-Username17