Redoing the level of blasting spells

[Draco_Argentum]

Remember that the point of the exercise isn't to power wizards up with new tactics. Its to make blaster wizards not crap. Giving them a level 1 spell with much longer range than normal is a new tactic for all wizards.

[Lokathor]

Remember that the point of the exercise isn't to power wizards up with new tactics. Its to make blaster wizards not crap. Giving them a level 1 spell with much longer range than normal is a new tactic for all wizards.

Sadly, if blasting is worth doing then everyone will be doing it, unless you make it an Evoker only ability or something.

[Quantumboost]

Remember that the point of the exercise isn't to power wizards up with new tactics. Its to make blaster wizards not crap.

This... is almost a contradiction in terms. If you are making blaster wizards (i.e., people who are wizards and who use their wizardness to make things be blasted) not crap, you are by definition giving wizards a new viable tactic. The tactic of "blasting stuff".

The only way for this to not happen is for the new blasters to be not-wizards. Warmages, or warlocks, or fire mages, or elementalists, or whatever.

[DSMatticus]

Well, that's not true, Lokathor. Or rather, it's only as true as that an evoker will occasionally cast color spray or whatever.

Relevelling evocation spells really does nothing to improve the power of evocations. Fireball is a shitty ability to waste an action on when you're a level 5 wizard, and that doesn't change whether it's a 3rd level spell or a 1st level spell. Fireball is, was, and always will be a shitty option compared to save-or-sucks or all the other awesomeness wizards have at their fingertips.

The idea, then, is that since fireball is such a shitty use of an action, it should be made less expensive as a use of resources. We leave fireball exactly as shitty as it was, and make it cheaper to use by letting it occupy a first level spell slot. Hopefully that will tempt people into using evocations for their low-level spell slots. But it's still an, "I've got nothing better to do, fireball," option.

[RobbyPants]

Well, if it's this much of a problem to give wizards an extra tool at low level, I suppose there's the option where Fireball takes a 1st level spell to cast, but you can't actually cast it until you could cast 3rd level spells. It solves the problems of 1st level wizards getting a new tactic, but I'm not really sure I like this approach. It feels like a dirty kludge to just try to move the conversation along.

[fectin]

Fireball isn't shitty; it's niche. There are situations where fireball is absolutely what you want to spend your actions on, it's just rare. It's not like fireball is sitting next to "awsomeball: 2d6/level, no save" though.

[DSMatticus]

Fireball is sitting next to stinking cloud, haste, and displacement in the core.

There are CR 2 creatures a fireball won't kill on a failed save at level 5. That's... pretty shitty for your highest level spell slot, all things considered. On the off-chance that you can catch a ton of things together and damage them all at once, it gets semi-competitive, but at the same time you could hurl a stinking cloud save-or-suck. It's not really fair to compare fireball to the theoreticall evocation 'awsomeball,' because we aren't comparing evocations to better evocations. We're comparing evocations to just better options entirely.

[hogarth]

Fireball is sitting next to stinking cloud, haste, and displacement in the core.

There are CR 2 creatures a fireball won't kill on a failed save at level 5.

Note that there are many CR 2 creatuers a stinking cloud won't kill, either.

From my experience, the advocates of "damage-dealing spells are never, ever useful" usually have halfway decent fighter-types in their party (which is not always the case for the games I've played in, sadly).

[Midnight_v]

Fireball isn't shitty; it's niche. There are situations where fireball is absolutely what you want to spend your actions on, it's just rare. It's not like fireball is sitting next to "awsomeball: 2d6/level, no save" though.

Hmm... is that the appropriate damage for the 9th level spell?
My problem is that I think any evocation spell I think of people say "Thats conjuration!" I guess its the fluff of it all.
Ah well.
Here's my attempt.


Gravity Bomb
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: Burst 10 ft./Level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex; special
Spell Resistance: No

This spell implodes an area with such force that a vacum is created sucking surronding area in.
Choose one 5-ft square on the ground in range then this is the origin point.. Creatures within 10ft per caster level take 2d6 +2 /CL damage. no save. Then all creatures and unnattended objects are deposited prone, and dazed in the origin point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or something to that Effect.
Here's my thinking on this its a BFC spell that does its damage regardless of the save. Which is fine because the damage is not at that level of "B*%##! I'ma kill you!" and you get an added effect for your effort if they fail the save. The way its worded it shouldn't be able to be evasioned out of which is needed for a 9th level spell slot.
Its untyped (again needed for that level) and doesn't allow spell resistance.
Also it "DAZES" which while it doens't make people drop shit. It does affect undead.

The concept is really just shoving someone into an intense gravity well slamming them to the focal point. Honestly the damage might be fair even at 3d6 I'd have to crunch that number and compare it with threats.

Okay. Go head. Rip it to shreads *wince*

[Leress]

First question would be how long does it daze?

[DSMatticus]

Well, Hogarth, on a failed save, a stinking cloud is 1d4+1 rounds of "we beat you with our sharp sticks." Generally, at those levels fortitude saves are better, and more things will be immune to nauseate than resistant to fire, but stinking cloud is still a majorly competitive option because it stops them from doing anything useful for 3.5 rounds on average. And that's probably the majority of a combat. Fireball, on the other hand, takes the same level spell slot, and isn't even capable of clearing the field of lower-level mooks at its best.

[fectin]

I'm not arguing fireball is generally good, just that situations exist where it is good: tiny creatures, stupidly high AC, swarms, mobs, when you need to light something on fire but it's too far away.
Morally, it's equivalent to fighter (sometimes useful for specific things) not monk (always a bad choice). That means having a scroll or 5 charge wand of it around is a reasonable decision, even if you don't spend spell slots on it.

[Midnight_v]

First question would be how long does it daze?

Hmm... well thats why I turn it over for editing really. I'm not realy sure.
When I wrote it I intended 1 round, Now that you mention it I"m not really sure.
1 round seems like it could be weaksause. 2 rounds seems peculiar. 3 or more and its people summoning shit like timestop + burn.

I'm thinking 1 round Plus the benefit of having all your enimies have to extract themselves and pick themselves up.

[Ice9]

One round of no-save Daze isn't bad, especially when combined with decent damage.

On the subject of damage however, did you mean:
A) 2d6 + (2 per level)
B) (2d6+2) per level
If it's A, then that's too low. If it's B, then it's a confusing way to write it - 2d8 per level has the same average and would be simpler. In any case, 40 dice is a lot to roll, and will be very close to the average anyway. So maybe just make it do 10 damage/level, ala Harm. Or even a flat amount - a 9th level spell won't be scaling much anyway.

[Lokathor]

Well, that's not true, Lokathor. Or rather, it's only as true as that an evoker will occasionally cast color spray or whatever.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. There are two options:
[*]Evocations are bad spells, but Evoker-specific class features try to boost them up so that they're not bad spells (Warmage kinda did this with Int to damage and stuff)
[*]Evocations are good spells, and everyone suddenly has a new tactic to try out from time to time.

[Midnight_v]

One round of no-save Daze isn't bad, especially when combined with decent damage.

On the subject of damage however, did you mean:
A) 2d6 + (2 per level)
B) (2d6+2) per level
If it's A, then that's too low. If it's B, then it's a confusing way to write it - 2d8 per level has the same average and would be simpler. In any case, 40 dice is a lot to roll, and will be very close to the average anyway. So maybe just make it do 10 damage/level, ala Harm. Or even a flat amount - a 9th level spell won't be scaling much anyway.

1. You actually get a reflex save to avoid being sucked in + Dazed.
2. The damage is no save, and I thought maybe that would make a difference but here's what I meant. 40d6 + 40 damage at level 20, if you follow.

Now one thing you point out though that I totally agree with is that 40d6 is stupid. I also think that flat damage is already out of the bag (off the top of my head Strike of Perfection ToB, and of course harm) so we might as well go with that.

Abhorent Vortex
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: Burst 10 ft./Level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex; special
Spell Resistance: No

This spell implodes an area with such intensity that a vacum is created sucking the surronding area in.
Choose one 5-ft square on the ground in range then this is the origin point.. Creatures (other than the caster) within 10ft per caster level take 150 damage with no save, each creature must then must make a reflex save or be sucked into the point of origin leaving them dazed for one round as well as being knocked proned. _________________________________________________________

Okay so here's the cool of it. It steals an action or 2. It hits flying targets. It hits everybody. It dazes all. It kills almost all the appropriate mooks. (purple worm not with standing) and it does this without resorting to dealing damage that auto kills everything but still is essentially a combat ender once per day.
Compare with time stop that requires you fire off a couple more spells afterwards (cloudkill or whatever), this will do essentially the same. You could follow with a few things but you can kill lots of things outright by casting it twice, and just saying to hell the rest of the day.
Lastly it actuall clumps the enemies together all prone in one square for all your housekeeping needs.
- Okay lets kick the hell out of it some more till it stands up on its own... What say you to this version?

[Ice9]

Looks pretty decent. I'd make the range Long, but other than that it seems about right.

[Draco_Argentum]

This... is almost a contradiction in terms. If you are making blaster wizards (i.e., people who are wizards and who use their wizardness to make things be blasted) not crap, you are by definition giving wizards a new viable tactic. The tactic of "blasting stuff".

Blasting isn't a tactic, killing is. Wizards already kill with spooky magic and plenty more. Letting them kill with fire is more fluff than anything.

[RadiantPhoenix]

How about 10 damage per level, to follow the pattern of Harm?

EDIT: uncapped, of course.

[Midnight_v]

How about 10 damage per level, to follow the pattern of Harm?

EDIT: uncapped, of course.

Hmm.. I think I've done enough with that spell honestly. You don't NEED to do 50 more points of damage Plus daze, plus clumping the enemies into one neat pile. without skirting into "I win: no save" like in the other thread I'm already thinking "As a player what if a Dm casts this."
However... maybe thats another spell entirely

Radiant Destruction
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: One creature or object; plus surrondng area see text
duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort or Special ; see text
Spell Resistance: Initial target, yes, surronding area, no.
The target of this spell is dealt 10 Dmg/caster level fort save for half; as it erupts with a blinding explosion of force on a failed save the creature is stunned for one round. Any creature recieving damaged this way is also stuck blind (no save) for 1d4 rounds, and Deafened until such time as they rest 8 hours (no save) .
All surrounding creatures in a 20ft radius burst of the initial target Must make a fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafend until such time as the rest 8 hours. Even on a succesful save any creature in the area is blown away (see condition summary).
All creatures in the area also dealt 10 dmg/per caster level (ref for half) anyone failing the save is also struck blind for 1d4 rounds,
..............................................................................................

Thats what I got for ya, so lets hear it. Reading both of these I'm reminded that the secret of high level evocation is not "OMG!@!@#MOAR!!DMGXXX!" but in adding status effects to the spells. So I wish more spells used blown away so yeah I threw that in for kicks.

Thoughts?

[RadiantPhoenix]

I suppose you do have a point; I wasn't thinking very much about the "no save" part.

[rasmuswagner]

Evocation is really, really pants at higher level.

Here's my level 9 candidate:
Multi-elemental barrage
long range, 20' blast.
1d100 points of damage from each of Fire, Cold, Acid, Sonic and Lightning. Ref half, rolled for each damage type.

And that's pretty lowball, you might want to add Force as well. I considered 1d10/level and other schemes, but seriously, these are end-game spells, and the inner Kevin in each of us loves the idea of rolling percentiles for damage in our game of D&D.

[Ice9]

Radiant Destruction...

In terms of effect, this looks reasonable. But the mechanics are a bit too convoluted. You've got two different sets of saving throws and durations for the primary vs secondary targets, and it's phrased confusingly.

If I have this right:

Code: Select all

Effect	       Primary	  	Secondary
SR				  Yes		      No	
10L damage		Fort half		Reflex half
Stun				1r / Fort.	  1d4r / Fort.
Blind			  1d4r		     1d4r / Reflex
Deafened		  8h		       8h / Fort.
Blown Away		-	        	No save