[SR 4] How do you Spell dilemma?

[Captain_Karzak]

I'm trying to evaluate which spells to select for a Shadowrun, 4e magician. There's a lot of good spells, and I can only afford a handful of them, hence my dilemma.
The old Shadowrun Newbie Questions thread has been pretty helpful in pointing out what to look for http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50683 , but I'm still conflicted about a few of spells:


Spells From Street Magic:

(1) Alter Memory (Street Magic, 171):

How reliable is this spell? It sounds awesomely useful, but it occurs to me that a guy with cybereyes (the most common mod) is likely to have a means of recording everything he's recently seen. So just screwing up his memory doesn't necessarily take care of the evidence in his head. Also, the player doesn't have much control over the spell's duration because the the target gets a willpower retest whenever confronted with contradictory evidence.

So is it worth it to learn, or not?

(2) Animate Object (Street Magic, 172)

What does it do? What are the "stats" on something you've animated? How do you resolve anything the animated object attempts to do?

(3) Deflection (Street Magic, 172)

This seems like a solid passive defense. Is this worth learning or not, 'cause it seems like a decent buff, but no one ever mentions it? Is this spell essential to generating large enough defense pools to avoid dying when facing dangerous people (prime runners, or high-profession rating elite troops like Ghosts, Red Samurai, etc)

(4) Fix (Street Magic, 173)

The fact you that you only repair 1 structure per net hit beyond the object resistance threshold does not bode well for the efficacy of the spell. Also there's a strict weight limit (Kg = Force x Hits), and it autofails on anything that is missing a "part." Is this worth learning?

(5) Shape Material (Street Magic, 174)

I love this line of spells. I just want to know how broadly I can legitimately define the materials affected by the spell. Can I make a Shape Stone spell or a Shape Metal spell and have that work on like 80% of everything stuff in Shadowrun is made out of?

(6) Sterlize (Street Magic, 174)

This also sounds great, but I'm really tight on BP/Karma. How hard is it to reproduce this effect via mundane skills and equipment?


Spells from the (Anniversary Edition) Core Rulebook:

(1) Combat Sense (SR4A, 206):

This is an ACTIVE detection spell. So does this mean I'm completely boned if I get attacked from outside the detection radius of the spell (Magic x Force meters)? If so, it sounds like a newbie trap, and you have craft an extended range version of the spell (+2 drain?) to get something reliable.

Also, active detections are treated as an opposed test, so does this mean I have to roll off against everyone who enters the radius of the spell, or am *I* the sole target of the spell and there's no opposed test and therefore NO god damn reason why the spell couldn't have just been labeled as PASSIVE?

(2) [Custom] Improved Invisibility (SR4A, 209)

I was hoping to craft a customized - multi sense version of this spell. Like all senses except touch. Can I make myself invisible to Radar, Sonar, Ultrasound? If so, what countermeasures exist against someone with a really good customized Invisibility spell?

(3) Influence (SR4A, 210)

It sounds fantastically useful, like the Jedi Mind Trick. Is there any kind of flaw I might be missing, or should every magician be learning this?


Spells from War!:

(1) Recharge: (War, 178):

It sounds kinda neat and is easy to use (just have to meet Object Resistance threshold, 100% effective without any net hits). Is it useful enough to make the cut? Would it save a lot of money, make life a lot easier, etc?

[Archmage]

(1) Alter Memory (Street Magic, 171):

Very useful if you are clever. Give people new or changed memories that they aren't going to try to disprove--by default, they're not going to go digging through their cybereye video dump to find contradictory evidence unless you've tried to convince them they did something really unreasonable. That's a lot of digital information to dig through, especially if they don't know exactly where to start looking to find out what went "wrong." Besides, equipment fails or lapses, and you can use that to your advantage when implanting memories.

(5) Shape Material (Street Magic, 174)

Very useful, but somewhat GM-dependent as to what you need. Frank asserts that all metals in SR, including the ferrocrete used to make buildings, are alloys, which means "Shape Alloy" will let you do all kinds of crazy things if you beat the object resistance test and that therefore there's no need to have more specific spells like "Shape Ferrocrete" or "Shape Duraluminum."

So the answer is yes, but make sure you aren't going to get spot-nerfed because you picked something your GM thinks is too broad like "Shape Matter" (which I'm pretty sure is too broad by the spell text).

(6) Sterlize (Street Magic, 174)

Reproducible with time and chemistry (see Cleaner-Cleaner from Arsenal). But when fleeing a crime scene after being shot, you may have neither.

(2) [Custom] Improved Invisibility (SR4A, 209)

Yes, you can, as long as your GM is okay with the custom spell rules.

Astral sight will always detect you. Adding other non-human senses like ultrasound and radar, assuming they're allowed, will probably drive up the drain cost. There comes a point where drain becomes high enough that you might be better off with something more flexible like TriD Phantasm for your disguise and illusion needs.

(3) Influence (SR4A, 210)

My opinion is that there's nothing you can do with this spell that Alter Memory can't do better, and Alter Memory has the potential to last for months, not that you generally need it to do so. Depending on your tradition, there are spirits that can reproduce this effect (such as Spirits of Man) and therefore the spell is less crucial.

[Username17]

I'm not a fan of Alter Memory. It's obvious you cast something, and it only does one person at a time. It has no effect on the cameras and no effect on the target's future actions. If it's important what the target does after an Influence would get them out of your hair, the character is generally plot-important enough that Alter Memory won't last very long either. That being said, while I think Influence is awesome, it's also available as a Spirit Power, so there's little reason to learn it yourself.

Animate Object is wildly differently good depending on game master. Lots of GMs will let you use it to open doors and paralyze cars, which is pretty damn sweet. Others basically nerf it to unusability. Check it before you take it.

Passive Defense spells pretty much suck ass. A real gun bunny is still going to kill your ass, and a bunch of mooks is easier to hide from than to beat up. The raw of it is that sustaining buff spells just isn't that good in SR, and I don't recommend them unless they are totally batshit nuts like Increase Reflexes.

Fix is totally fucking sweet. Because the difficulty of fixing things with technical skills is based on whether they are "damaged" or "destroyed". So if you take a shattered commlink and Fix a box or two, it's not destroyed anymore and you can fix it the rest of the way with non-epic results on a Hardware test. Or someone else can.

Everyone since the dawn of time has asked for better versions of Invisibility that cover more detection types. I have never seen any GM let a player get away with anything more than a multispectrum invisibility that made you not show up on radar. No GM has ever or will ever let you become invisible to Sight, Sound, and Smell with one spell.

I don't know anyone who lets people use spells from War!

-Username17

[Fuchs]

Sterilize has the drawback that if you don't have time to use chemical means, you might not have time to clean your astral signature either, which adds up to trading one piece of evidence left for another.

[hermit]

I don't know anyone who lets people use spells from War!

Pegasus won't let anyone use Slow. Because in the ranslated book it is gone. I only glanced the book, so I can't say how the other epic retard spells were changed or dropped, though.

(1) Recharge: (War, 178):

It sounds kinda neat and is easy to use (just have to meet Object Resistance threshold, 100% effective without any net hits). Is it useful enough to make the cut? Would it save a lot of money, make life a lot easier, etc?

Only if your GM is a micromanaging dick who has you run condition monitors for your batteries, if your preferred gun is a laser, you are very patient in spooling a taser's wires back on and repairing spent S'n'S ammo, or your character wants to get into big-time energy production instead of shadowrunning.

In other words, no.

[Stahlseele]

slow is gone, and i think recharge was errataed to only be viable for car batteries at maximum . . so the power packs for the gauss/laser/sound/microwave weapons maybe . .
Ah, found it, the description says:"Spell works only on stuff that's small enough to be held in your hands."
And Designate in the german Version only works for stuff that has been attuned to the spells frequency beforehand.

[Korwin]

What did Pegasus do to the KZ chapter?
(sorry for the OT)

[Captain_Karzak]

Passive Defense spells pretty much suck ass. A real gun bunny is still going to kill your ass, and a bunch of mooks is easier to hide from than to beat up. The raw of it is that sustaining buff spells just isn't that good in SR, and I don't recommend them unless they are totally batshit nuts like Increase Reflexes.

It would help me to understand this better if I knew how big attack dice pools can realistically get (without some some sort of super-cheese, I mean).

My stab at it: 9 agi + 6 weapon skill + 2 specialization + 2 smartlink = 18 dice. Firing a long burst, wide, would reduce the target's defense pool by 5.

A mage with cover might have a defense pool of 9 reflex + 4 dodge + 2 specialization + 2 cover = 17 dice, reduced to 12 due to the attackers long burst, wide.

So a Street Sam shoots twice, and then there's one less mage in the world.

It seems like a Deflection spell, sustained by some means that does not inflict a penalty, could be of use in this sort of scenario. At a force of 4 or 5 it might help preserve the mage's life. If you could also sustain a second defense spell, like Combat Senses, you will actually exceed that street sam's attack pool.

Is that a terrible return for the amount of effort it takes to buy, learn, and then sustain those spells, either through a foci or spirit of man?

I'm not super excited about how those defense spells change the numbers above, but I don't really have an idea of what their opportunity cost is.

What would a better use of those resources be than running those kind of defense spells? (Let's assume that Improved Reflexes is already up and running on a Rating 4 Sustaining Foci)

Everyone since the dawn of time has asked for better versions of Invisibility that cover more detection types. I have never seen any GM let a player get away with anything more than a multispectrum invisibility that made you not show up on radar. No GM has ever or will ever let you become invisible to Sight, Sound, and Smell with one spell.

Yeah I understand, things might get out of hand if one spell made you virtually undetectable from all non-astral senses.

But the more I read of the street gear section, the less I understand what the fucking point of Invisibility is. Anyone can get ultrasound goggles. Street sams can gain that as an augmentation for pocket change and an amount of essence that resembles a rounding error. Personal radar and sonar isn't too hard to get, either. Dual natured critters will see straight though you, and not in a good way.

Does the off-the-shelf Improved Invisibility actually help you against anything that isn't so Impoverished/Unaugmented/Mundane that you wouldn't curbstomp anyway, and feel like a bully for doing so afterwards?

[Username17]

It seems like a Deflection spell, sustained by some means that does not inflict a penalty, could be of use in this sort of scenario.

How? The guy fires twice. And while you probably are facing street samurai rolling less dice than that (though of course, you could be facing guys rolling more), you only get those dice from Dodge if you skip your next turn (allowing the samurai a whole extra IP to shoot at you), he gets a second shot, and if he successfully snuck up on you, you don't get to roll dice at all.

By the time we start talking about learning a spell and laying down a sustaining focus and getting this shit through wards and all that, we still haven't even gotten particularly close to winning a mano-a-mano against a cyber assassin. And we could have been spending all those resources on things that would let us not even have that fight in the first place.

Does the off-the-shelf Improved Invisibility actually help you against anything that isn't so Impoverished/Unaugmented/Mundane that you wouldn't curbstomp anyway, and feel like a bully for doing so afterwards?

Absolutely. First of all, even if they detect you, they haven't seen you. If you are down in their system as a sonar blip, you're basically free and clear as soon as you get to a crowded area and your spell fingerprints wear off in Force hours.

Secondly, most of intrusion is about bypassing mall cops in such a way that cyber assassins don't show up. This isn't D&D and there isn't a death knight in the final room next to The Chalice. There is an off site hit squad who will be sent in if they think things are screwy. So every yard or door you can traverse before setting off alarms is more time for you to complete your mission before the response shows up.

Invisibility will not get you past the hell hounds or the wards or the motion detectors and it may not even get you past the regular dogs. But you can cast it on the team van and drive right up to the side of the building without raising any flags at all. That's a huge boost of free time before alerts go up.

-Username17

[Murtak]

Does the off-the-shelf Improved Invisibility actually help you against anything that isn't so Impoverished/Unaugmented/Mundane that you wouldn't curbstomp anyway, and feel like a bully for doing so afterwards?

You seem to be approaching your evaluation of what is good and what is bad with a duel in mind. This is the false mindset for Shadowrun, even more so than in other RPGs. Fair fights are an oddity. First of all, you can often fullfil your objective without fighting at all. Secondly, most of the time you roll initiative the outcome of the fight is already decided and you are merely finding out whether you take one or two turns to dispatch the guards. And on the other hand, if serious opposition does manage to get a clear shot at you, you are probably toast. Most of the time Shadowrun is highly asymetric. Assume anyone on the level of a runner can fuck you up severely in his area of expertise. Assume anyone you don't see coming can kill you.


As for Improved Invisibility: Yes, it will do diddly squat against any sort of dedicated mage hunter. But not everyone has ultrasound or dual nature. And even if they do, they don't necessarily have it turned on. Live my life in radar-vision? No, thanks. But more importantly, Improved Invisibility will work on random grunts and cameras (read: 90% of all physical security). Even if it is only good enough to get you past one layer of security, that is at the very least one less layer you have to defeat in other ways. At best, it will let you get in a position from where you can defeat other security or even let you walk past security right to where you want to be.


Now, if you want to win a duel against a samurai I suggest a nice manabolt. Preferably though, get a nice optical scope and kill him before he even notices you. Ironically, being invisible would help here.

[Stahlseele]

What did Pegasus do to the KZ chapter?
(sorry for the OT)

Far as i know, that one got completely nixed.
Not sure though, i plan on getting that book on the first weekend of june.
Nerdcon in Hamburg with PEgasus Games.

[sabs]

You've got 2 options for gunbunny.

1)Cyber/Bio monster (elf for the 7 natural agility)
Agility(11)+skill(6)+Specialty(2)+smartlik(2)+reflex recorder(1)+Synch(1)+tacnet(1-4)=anywhere from 23-27 dp.
2) Adept:
Agility(7)+Agilityboost(3)+skill(6)+skillboost(3)+specialty(2)+smartlink(2)+tacnet(1-4) or 23-27dp

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of dice of cheeze. But that would be a top end gunbunny.

[Username17]

Actual "top end" gunbunnies involve taking cyber-elves and implanting them with blood augmented Guardian spirits. Or Going into deep negatives of Essence on a Cyberzombie. That's 30-40 dice of shooting. Not really worth thinking about though, since you will never play or face either potential character.

-Username17

[sabs]

I guess I was refering to top end gun bunnies you could actually play :0

[Captain_Karzak]

First, I wanted to say thanks for the helpful, really well thought out responses I've gotten on my SR-4 questions. You've all given me a lot to think about.

And then onto more questions:

I've been looking at Control Action / Mob Control Vs. Control Thoughts / Mob Mind.

These seem like awesome spells, but I haven't been able to figure out if the thought control spells worth the two extra drain over action control spells?

For context, assume these spells are reserved for high-end opposition who might be rolling 8-14 die to resist?

[UmaroVI]

Control Action and Mob Control are both definitively worthless, because you need to spend a complex action to cast it and then a simple action to command them, and until you command them, they can act on their own. And their action will almost certainly be shooting you. Even without that, it's in effect a 2-action spell.

Mob Mind might or might not be useful, because it's unclear how it works. Namely - can people who have not yet been commanded act normally? If yes, it blows. If no, it is a pretty decent spell because you cast it and anyone who is affected stands around drooling, and you can then command them to do stuff.

[Username17]

The control spells take two actions to take effect and have a duration measured in seconds. They are all basically worthless for the things you want to do with mind control: get an alibi, coerce someone into having sex with you, or gain pawns like in Syndicate. But they do last long enough for someone to OK a transaction, open a door, input a password, or in whatever other way bypass futuristic electronics on your behalf.

Control Emotions is thus completely worthless, because it doesn't last long enough for any emotional effects to be noticeable. Control Actions is mostly worthless, because all it will let you do is get someone to put their hand on a scanner or drive a car off a cliff or something. Control Thoughts is extremely situational, and is of primary utility in emptying out peoples' bank accounts. But that use is so amazing that your MC will probably have to nerf it unless you want to turn the entire game into "money laundering" as you try to second guess the popos while you empty out the bank account of every single person who crosses you and rapidly convert the money into a less traceable form at who cares what kind of loss rate and then turn around and do it again.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

There's a reason why these mindrapery spells are banned at most tables . .

[Captain_Karzak]

Control Action and Mob Control are both definitively worthless, because you need to spend a complex action to cast it and then a simple action to command them, and until you command them, they can act on their own. And their action will almost certainly be shooting you. Even without that, it's in effect a 2-action spell.

Mob Mind might or might not be useful, because it's unclear how it works. Namely - can people who have not yet been commanded act normally? If yes, it blows. If no, it is a pretty decent spell because you cast it and anyone who is affected stands around drooling, and you can then command them to do stuff.

That's ass. I assumed that part of casting the spell was commanding the targets. Issuing new orders as a simple action is sensible. Having to wait a whole turn to affect the people you've ensorcelled seems stupid in a the-writers-could-not-possibly-mean-that kind of way.

I was actually kind of banking on the effectiveness of the various mind-control spells in the Manipulation school. Do you guys have a recommendation on which school is the most important to have a huge dice pool for (augmented by specialization and mentor spirits for example)?

[UmaroVI]

That is very dependant on the rest of your character, and depends on how you plan to fight. There are basically two ways to go: buff yourself and shoot people (of which Possession cheese is a subtype), and Combat spells.

A big consideration - you cannot get more hits (not net hits, HITS) on a spell than the force you cast it at. What that means is that for spells with high drain codes, dice past Magic x 3 are progressively less useful. The other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of spells either work or don't (so you just need enough dice to be sure of getting 1 hit reliably), or are OK to retry (like Mind Probe or passive buff spells).

A quick breakdown of the options:

Combat spells route:
Pros: Cheaper. You don't need weapon skills or palming, and you don't need high Agility. This gives you crowd control - there simply are not mundane options for taking out groups of people that are as good as Stunball or Soundwave.

Cons: less good against single targets than guns. GMs like to nerf direct combat spells/use screwy optional rules which makes this route less good.

How to do it: If there's no optional or house rules in effect, you want to have a mentor that boosts Combat and specialize in Combat. Have the following spells:
Stunbolt (single target for things not stun-immune)
Stunball, Soundwave, or both (crowd control; Stunball is less drain, Soundwave has a nauseate effect).
Powerbolt or a P-damage Elemental single target spell of your choice (destroying non-living targets)

How it works is pretty simple: overcast Stunbolt, which has a drain code of f/2-1, so a, say, f9 stunbolt is only 3P drain which is not bad, and it will flatten most people.

Buff and guns route: Frank is a big fan of this route. I think it's a perfectly decent option although I don't think it is out-and-out better. The big drawback is that you actually need to invest in gun skills on top of magic skills; while you need a few less spells, you're still sinking more points into this. The advantage is that you ARE better at most combat situations, and hey, you can still know Stunball for emergency AE problems.

The idea is quite simple: deal with opposition by shooting them, just like a street samurai. To make you better at shooting them, you want to use buff spells, like Increase Reflexes (this is really key) through a Sustaining Focus. When you have the cash and karma for force 6 sustaining foci, you can start getting other stuff.

Excellent spells include:
Increase [Attribute] for things like Agility. I love this line of spells in general - they're very versatile. Increase Logic can be sustained on yourself to increase your maximum foci, and it can also be used out-of-combat on your medic when he's first aiding people. Which ones you want depends somewhat on your team; ideally, you want stuff that you can use in combat and also that one or more of your teammates can use out of combat.

Deflection and Combat Sense: invisible passive bonuses to defense

Improved Invisibility: Either useless or amazing, depending on what you're fighting, but when it works, it works.

Physical Mask: Tons of uses

Mana Static: an oddball spell, it has niche but really amazing uses. It pretty much fucks over anyone using magic, especially spirits. This will drop your own Increase Reflexes spell, so casting it more or less removes you from the fight, but it might be worth it. EG, if you get jumped by a few high-force spirits, casting Mana Static will make you useless, but can easily weaken them so badly that the rest of your team can mop them up. How good this is depends on what opposition you go up against, but the first time you fight an NPC ubermage in an aspected domain with a pack of bound spirits, you'll be glad you have it.

A note here: don't be a moron and make yourself incapable of functioning without buffs, eg, don't do something stupid like rely on buffing your drain stat to be able to cast anything, because sometimes you will have to do something like get into a fight right after going through a ward, or turn off all your magic to get past spirits watching for active spells, or whatever.

[Captain_Karzak]

Soundwave.... that's intriguing. I can't seem to find it, so I guess this is a custom spell constructed under the rules found in Street Magic (p 163-165).

Would this spell have a drain code of F/2 + 4 ?

+1 from Type = Physical Spell
+2 from Range = Area
+2 from Elemental Effect
-1 from Stun Damage?

That's pretty intense drain, but Nausea is very powerful condition to inflict and ignoring all armor isn't too shabby either for a spell of this type.

I found out today that my GM plans to implement a dodge house rule where you get dodge x2 vs ranged attacks when taking full defense (same as full defense vs a melee attack). This would likely also apply to Gymnastic dodge. Further clarification revealed that augmentations that inflate the skill components of the dice pool (rather than the attribute component), say - Synthicardium or possibly even a TacNet would also be doubled.

I assume that the impact of this rule on my character is to make indirect combat spells a complete no go?

Direct combat spells are similarly nerfed via the net hits adds DV optional rule. So there are literally no combat spells worth taking in this (modified) rules environment?

I guess that means my only option is to buff myself and start blasting fools with guns. (Unless multi-casting combat spells can save the day?)

That leads me to another question: Invoking (Metamagic from Street Magic, p .57)

Is it reasonable to invoke Force 6 Great Form Guardian spirits to be endowed with 6 ranks in a combat skill? Or is that like a complete waste of resources? With the Invoking Metamagic should I be making nothing but great form Guidance Spirits with Area Engulf (stun damage Vs Willpower, ignore all armor)?




[As an aside, I was checking Street Magic Errata, and it seems like Mana Static got hit hard. The background count starts at 1 and builds at a rate of +1 per combat round until a max of Force.]

[Archmage]

Direct combat spells are similarly nerfed via the net hits adds DV optional rule. So there are literally no combat spells worth taking in this (modified) rules environment?

This is both stupid and irrelevant, as if you are overcasting the spell at Force 10 or 12 you already do enough damage to drop most targets with a single action, so you just refuse the bonus damage from net hits, take no additional drain, and waste most adversaries anyway. Also, if you're using an area spell, "net hits" isn't even a consistent value between targets, so you should ask your GM how he plans to resolve that issue.

Stuff about adding Dodge twice to pools

This is probably to make people more resilient to gunfire, not indirect combat spells. It may also be intended as a really roundabout way of buffing melee by making ranged and melee defense pools comparable. The net effect is that it's going to be harder to hit people, period, no matter how you're trying to do it.

This really just pushes you to avoid using attacks that permit any kind of active defense--screw guns, start using chemical splash grenades full of narcoject or warp, since those don't have any damage degradation over the range of the "blast" and there's no skill for avoiding grenades. With an airburst link, you don't even need to be particularly skilled to hit your targets. And it makes direct combat spells even more appealing, since their defense pool is going to be way smaller than anything else.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, it means I would take an indirect combat spell over Powerbolt - that spell is largely for fighting drones/vehicles. For direct spells, yep, that rule isn't really a nerf. Overcast, don't keep net hits for damage, and just do a shitload directly. Overcasting is +2 DV per extra drain, keeping hits is +1 DV for extra drain, so fuck it.

[Captain_Karzak]

I'm having a reading comprehension problem with the Increase [Attribute] line of spells. The spell's text can be found on page 208 of the SR4A book.

If I have a Charisma of 7 before casting Increase Charisma, does this mean I must cast Increase Charisma at a minimum of Force 7?

Or

If I have a Charisma of 7 and I cast Increase Charisma and get 5 hits, must I have cast the spell at a minimum of Force 12 (Force at least equal to the augmented value of the attribute).

Edit: Dumpshock consensus seems to be the former.

[Captain_Karzak]

Do you guys have any spiritual advice?

The impression I'm getting is the best suite of spirits to have in your tradition are:

Guardian (give it a big gun)
Guidance (for divination and a pretty awesome engulf)
Man (for the spirit of man trick)
Task (sorta like skillwires for mages)
Elemental: Either Air (for Movement power through air, and nice stats when materialized) or Water (for Weather Control).

Does that sound right to you guys?

Also, I totally don't get how either Movement or Weather Control work, so it's hard to make this decision.

Movement has some crap about only working "within the terrain the spirit controls." WTF does that even mean? Also: can I have a winged guardian spirit or air spirit use Movement make my racing bike into a flying vehicle?

Weather Control is really vague on how large an area can be affected, not even providing order of magnitude guidelines for min/max area affected.

What's reasonable to ask my GM for? Force squared kilometers radius? Force x 1,000 meters radius? Force x Avogadro's number in square angstroms?

How is it handled in your game?