I waste it with my crossbow! Until the end of time!

[shadzar]

My point is that to have players diversify what powers or schticks they use we can't hold onto role protection being enforced by only allowing players to do one thing.

All too true, but sadly some people look specifically for specialization, and neglect other things as they feel that all other party members will always be present to pick up the slack. It may be good at times to be the best at only one thing, but it is better in the long run to be good at several things.

[kennth]

One of the things I have noticed about 4E D&D is that there are rarely any situations where a players' tactic Just Doesn't Work.

Yeah, this is one of my major complaints about the edition. You can basically pick one schtick and just do that forever. There just aren't any tactical counters to many things, like healing especially.

I've been playing a sorcerer in a 4E game (I think we're level 2 or 3 right now) and literally 90+% of what I do is say: "I shoot the monster with my Acid Orb". I agree that it wouldn't be an improvement to go to 50% "Acid Orb" and 50% "crossbow", but neither option is very exciting.

I also do that, it's really challenging.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I've already received an answer to the questions this thread raises.

Winds of Fate, with only a few or preferably no duplicates. It's really that easy.

[rasmuswagner]

When I did the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks pseudo-conversion, my DnD4.0 players nearly went ballistic when they found out vegepygmies were highly resistant to piercing attacks (only take 1 point of damage, and I didn't use minions per se). Even the bow ranger, carrying melee weapons, went round after round in frustration with the +3 vicious bow rather than whip out anything else; the thought that a non-magical tool might be better just isn't in the mindset for this game.

Actually, you failed at 4E. Those vegepygmies should have had resistance 5 to piercing attacks, maybe 10 or 15 at the very most. That's how 4E handles all the weird resistances of earlier editions. You remind me of those early 3rd edition moments where the GM reads "Teleport, greater - at will" and takes it to mean "as a free action".

[hogarth]

I've already received an answer to the questions this thread raises.

Winds of Fate, with only a few or preferably no duplicates. It's really that easy.

Yes, instead of having your monk pick up a pair of ghost touch nunchucks to fight a ghost, he gets to stare blankly at the ghost 66% of the time before picking up his ghost touch nunchucks. A vast improvement.

[Hieronymous Rex]

When games, like Pokemon, Oblivion, or Fallout force plays to spend points to gain power, and the points can result in a more powerful option (in Fallout 3 for example there is little point in putting points in anything other than a single weapon category until it's maxed) the player doesn't really have a choice of what he does every combat. He's going to shoot his crossbow.

I know this was a year ago, Thymos, but... how does this apply to Pokemon?

[hogarth]

When games, like Pokemon, Oblivion, or Fallout force plays to spend points to gain power, and the points can result in a more powerful option (in Fallout 3 for example there is little point in putting points in anything other than a single weapon category until it's maxed) the player doesn't really have a choice of what he does every combat. He's going to shoot his crossbow.

I know this was a year ago, Thymos, but... how does this apply to Pokemon?

I've never played Pokemon, but wouldn't you tend to evolve/train/whatever a handful of your monsters to the exclusion of all others?

[Hieronymous Rex]

I've never played Pokemon, but wouldn't you tend to evolve/train/whatever a handful of your monsters to the exclusion of all others?

Since you can catch new pokemon at higher levels, it isn't the same as "if you try to use a different weapon, you start with no skill". Depending on what level your pokemon are, newly caught pokemon may be usable immediately.

Also, you get six pokemon in your party. It's analogous to having 6 level-appropriate weapon skills in Fallout. Pokemon is a good example of a game giving the player a variety of choices in battle.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I've already received an answer to the questions this thread raises.

Winds of Fate, with only a few or preferably no duplicates. It's really that easy.

Yes, instead of having your monk pick up a pair of ghost touch nunchucks to fight a ghost, he gets to stare blankly at the ghost 66% of the time before picking up his ghost touch nunchucks. A vast improvement.

If you're using WoF, you don't need monsters that cockblock most of a character's arsenal in order to get them to shake up their tactics, since it's built into the game. I mean, wasn't that the point of monsters like golems and oozes?

[hogarth]

Also, you get six pokemon in your party. It's analogous to having 6 level-appropriate weapon skills in Fallout. Pokemon is a good example of a game giving the player a variety of choices in battle.

Wait -- so "gotta catch 'em all" means "gotta catch all 6"? That's lame.

If you're using WoF, you don't need monsters that cockblock most of a character's arsenal in order to get them to shake up their tactics, since it's built into the game. I mean, wasn't that the point of monsters like golems and oozes?

I guess. But I'm not convinced that getting rid of golems/oozes/ghosts preserves the same amount of variety as you have with them.

[TheFlatline]

I think the big thing in that is that anyone can swing a stick/sword quite usefully after only a few tries

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You've been watching too many movies where the hero swishes the sword a couple times and suddenly he kicks ass.

Tell you what. My friend's been fencing for 10 years. I'll give you 20 minutes with a foil and we'll see how useful you are.

fixed quote tag. --Z

[RobbyPants]

Fix your quote tag, Flatline.

[Hieronymous Rex]

Wait -- so "gotta catch 'em all" means "gotta catch all 6"? That's lame.

That's... not what I said at all. You do catch everything you see. You keep 6 of them with you at a time, and can (and commonly do) swap them out in town.

The game is driven by type interaction, so (especially in the multiplayer, which is the main draw) having as many of them as you can get available for team building is crucial.

[Chamomile]

Wait -- so "gotta catch 'em all" means "gotta catch all 6"? That's lame.

You get six Pokemon in your party and can store hundreds or thousands (depending on which generation of game you're playing) in your in-game PC, which can be accessed from any town in the game. If you're leveling all Pokemon in your party evenly (typically the best strategy, as if you have only one good Pokemon, you'll be ripped to shreds as soon as you run into a trainer with a type advantage), the wild Pokemon in any given area will be no more than a few levels behind, so it shouldn't be too hard to train them up to be on par with your existing Pokemon, which makes it not too painful to swap in a new Pokemon to replace one of your six.

Sorry for off-topic rant. I like Pokemon.

[Maxus]

So your best best is to find six pokemon whose types allow advantages/resistances to most other types, and try to cover all 17 types with a total of 24 techniques.

[Chamomile]

I think the big thing in that is that anyone can swing a stick/sword quite usefully after only a few tries

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You've been watching too many movies where the hero swishes the sword a couple times and suddenly he kicks ass.

Tell you what. My friend's been fencing for 10 years. I'll give you 20 minutes with a foil and we'll see how useful you are.

fixed quote tag. --Z

Honestly? Give me twenty minutes with a club and I'll bet I can ruin your friend's day. I might end up with a few nasty pokes, but he'll be the one with his skull caved in at the end of the day.

[sabs]

Give me 5 minutes with a gun, and you'll both be sad.

[Quantumboost]

Give me 5 minutes with a hydroelectric dam, and your entire valley will be sad.

[sabs]

I bet you need more than 5 minutes with that dam.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Self destruct button!

[quanta]

Give me five minutes with your moms, and we can all be sad.

[Chamomile]

To bring this around to the original point.

If you pick up a bow and you've never used it before, you probably won't be able to actually hit anything with it unless it's already really close. If you pick up a sword and you've never used it before, you won't be at all a match for a master swordsman, but you will be able to actually hit your enemy.

[Ice9]

But on the other hand:
Untrained guy shooting a trained foe - misses, then runs away.
Untrained guy swordfighting a trained foe - gets blocked, then stabbed.


On the original topic - the Fire Mage question is a tricky one. What should happen when a Fire Mage runs into an Asbestos Golem?
A) He's not very useful, or succeeds via DxM. This works fine in a story, but not so well in a game where the character sitting on the sidelines means a player not participating.
B) He just uses hotter fire. This preserves the character's theme, but can make things monotonous, and removes any player creativity from the equation.
C) He uses fire differently, by the rules. Making smoke screens, melting the ground, buffing allies via the "essence of fire", making cages of solid fire that entrap even if they don't hurt, and so forth. This gives some variety, but it doesn't really require any creativity - you're just looking at your powers and going "Fire Damage = No".
D) He uses fire differently, on the fly. Blasting a column so the arch collapses on the golem, making a wall of flame for the rogue to gain concealment, that kind of thing. Often the same tactics as C, just without any explicit rules to that effect. This is great from a narrative standpoint, and involves actual creativity, but it's partially MTP, and thus reliant on a good DM who the players are on the same page with.
E) He switches to something else - a crossbow, a different school of magic, a wand he had stockpiled, etc. This provides more variety, and sometimes more strategic elements (deciding to have the wand in question stockpiled), but it does take the character out of their theme.

Personally, I favor a combination of C and D, with a bit of E. Everyone should have some broadly useful options, and be able to improvise more within their theme. But it doesn't hurt to occasionally go outside that.

[DSMatticus]

With the bow your suckage is apparent soon enough that you can avoid being stabbed in the face?

Wait, what does that have to do with the discussion?

Wait, what is the discussion?

Where am I? Who am I?

[wwebb]

To bring this around to the original point.

If you pick up a bow and you've never used it before, you probably won't be able to actually hit anything with it unless it's already really close. If you pick up a sword and you've never used it before, you won't be at all a match for a master swordsman, but you will be able to actually hit your enemy.

Ohh. That was so true.
But in some other point, if you haven't used it for some other time but had an experience to it. You could probably hit your enemy with out worries.
Ka-chow..