The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:54 pm

One of the biggest problems is that we often look closely at the details and we can’t see the forest from the trees. In order to really look at the problem we need to take a very high level abstract look. It sounds counter intuitive but in order for any class to shine somewhere they need to suck somewhere. The whole notion of fantasy role playing requires a team mentality, where various classes all lock together in order to cover the problems of the other. Swiss army knives just don’t make for good group gaming, even if it is a Swiss army knife that sucks. (In other words, this is why Bards have always … not counting the days of 1E when they were just strange … sucked.)

This is especially true with the fighter/wizard problem because we go out of our way to encourage the suck of the fighter but also go out of our way to remove any potential suck for the wizard. There must be a “conservation of fantasy” involved or else the classes will never even remotely balance. At every given level, the fighter must be just as “fantastic” as the wizard and the rogue (and any other class you care to come up with). No class can be “stand alone” and no class should better the primary abilities of the other class.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:40 pm

Seems relevant:

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:33 am

I didn't know anyone else knew about that comic.

Of course, you really need to link to it since each comic has an alt text and a hidden comic.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:35 am

So. Phasing out the shamefully stupid fighter and his dumbass friends.

On the one hand, if the levels of the game are kept low then the VAH archetype does have a place and be made balanced. On the other hand, human beings grognards tend to be in denial about letting go of their VAH safety blanket so it might be better not to give it to them in the first place. On the third hand, you could always replace VAH powers with stuff like 'leap behind an enemy and stab them in their neck' with 'stab so hard that they get stabbed by an invisible force again 3 rounds from now' and before the player knows it they're suddenly a viable archetype. On the fourth hand, you still get grognard whining about Weeaboo Fightan Magic and OMGANIME.

Thoughts?

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:53 am

I love Weeaboo Fightan Magic and Anime. So, I see those as perfectly viable sources for D&D mechanics and character concepts.

Also, I think that there's a bigger market in people who would want to play Guts than people who would be so infuriated over the idea that they'd never play the game.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:30 pm

That may be true, but how many of those people will actually start playing because of it?

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:33 pm

Honestly the answer to this is to moddle fighters after heroes of myth. Beowulf could swim for miles on end over deep ocean, during battering storms, while fighting droves of giant sea monsters.

That should be the kind of stuff high level fighters should be able to do.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:38 pm

imo d20 modern had a decent idea: you get your basic classes which are pretty normal, and then you get your advanced classes, which are better. obviously this would have to be adapted to D&D

main problem with that is it's more elegant just to create a class that can advance up to twenty levels and scale decently

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:36 am

you still get grognard whining about .....OMGANIME

Dude, this isn't 1993 anymore. Those people aren't playing D&D, they're too busy getting dentures fitted and babysitting their grandkids.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:16 am

On my hand: Fuck whiny grognards and do what you must.

I would go for Weeaboo Fightan Magic. People love that shit.

Bobikus · Post by **Bobikus** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:24 am

Fist of the North Star or One Piece or something like that would be fine tossed in as weaboo fightan magic. I think part of the 90s hatred came from DBZ still being the most known fighting anime and it devolved into spamming blue and yellow beams back and forth.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:19 am

The game should have a place for low-level adventures. So let't VAH be an option initially, but arrange things in such a way that it is very unambigiously phased out at middle levels.

K · Post by K » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:49 am

I think the problem that people have with anime-style hijinks is that it's indistinguishable from spellcasting. Like, completely indistinguishable.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:28 am

K wrote:I think the problem that people have with anime-style hijinks is that it's indistinguishable from spellcasting. Like, completely indistinguishable.

Only because D&D spellcasting is the most unrestrained, unfocussed representation of magic I've seen implemented in a game. They're bascially superpowers. Now I can see how things got to this point, what with everyone else having no abilities beyond "climb a wall" or " hit it with a sword" meaning everything interesting had to be a spell, but really the whole philosophy that Wizards should be able to do anything they want as a standard action has got to go.

Currently there are spells that deal damage, cause status affects, cast illusions, summon helpers, increase fighting ability, gain powers like flight or super speed, Save or dies, stat boosters, shrink or disintegrate things, teleport, right up to the ultimate spells that just say "Fuck it, what do you want me to do?". In order for anyone else to have any kind of mechanical area to call their own you really need to limit Wizards spell selection a'la the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. This seems to have been the way the later Tome classes have gone, and imho gives a stronger class identity and frees up space for the martial characters to take some of the slack.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:37 am

K wrote:I think the problem that people have with anime-style hijinks is that it's indistinguishable from spellcasting. Like, completely indistinguishable.

In terms of effect, it is practically impossible to be distinguishable from something that basically does everything and has no defined limits.

And the only common factor in "anime-style hijinks" is martial badassery. If it also looks like spellcasting... well, that only reinforces the point #1.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:43 pm

Yep. Wizards being a catch-all for all spellcasting is ridiculous.

It hass a two-part solution:

A)Specialization. Evokers (blasting stuff), Psionics (buff/debuff/DoT) and Summoners (pets) are the big 3. In theory, you should be good at one of them and have a little of the other 2.

From those we design, let's say, a Warlock, which Summon Demons as his main stick, and has some minor blast spells and buffs and a Necromancer, which has Summon Undead as his main stick, and has minor DoTs and Debuffs.

Everybody should either get a secondary damage type to fall back, or make magic resistance a lot less important. "My fire can burn your fire".

B)All plot-affecting powers should be on Rituals accesable to everyone. Period. Is understandable that players want to be able to do cool things, but restricting it to 1-2 classes is bullshit. Make up something like comunicating with Ancestors or Gadgets.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:04 pm

Gx1080 wrote:Yep. Wizards being a catch-all for all spellcasting is ridiculous.

It hass a two-part solution:

A)Specialization. Evokers (blasting stuff), Psionics (buff/debuff/DoT) and Summoners (pets) are the big 3. In theory, you should be good at one of them and have a little of the other 2.

From those we design, let's say, a Warlock, which Summon Demons as his main stick, and has some minor blast spells and buffs and a Necromancer, which has Summon Undead as his main stick, and has minor DoTs and Debuffs.

Everybody should either get a secondary damage type to fall back, or make magic resistance a lot less important. "My fire can burn your fire".

B)All plot-affecting powers should be on Rituals accesable to everyone. Period. Is understandable that players want to be able to do cool things, but restricting it to 1-2 classes is bullshit. Make up something like comunicating with Ancestors or Gadgets.

Derailing nit pick, but I prefer warlocks with blasting as a main shtick and summoning secondary. And I'm amused by the mental image of another caster's fire recoiling and whining "ow!" when it comes in contact with the warlock's

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:24 am

Heh. From that, there's an interesting point: I fully support to tie the classes to a setting, if only because that helps players as a guide for creating characters that aren't walking cliches.

Of course, some of them will do it anyways, but what you can do.

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:55 am

FatR wrote:
K wrote:I think the problem that people have with anime-style hijinks is that it's indistinguishable from spellcasting. Like, completely indistinguishable.
In terms of effect, it is practically impossible to be distinguishable from something that basically does everything and has no defined limits.

And the only common factor in "anime-style hijinks" is martial badassery. If it also looks like spellcasting... well, that only reinforces the point #1.

That is a fair critique in some senses, but not in others.

I mean, all the anime guys I see do blasting stuff at a minimum. What is the Wizard supposed to get?

Anime doesn't really have Wizards. It has various forms of fighting guys who literally do everything, but sometimes they stab people. I mean, if Inuyasha is any indicator, the BBEG can raise the dead, shoots blasts, control demons, stab people, create wards, and dispels magic.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:40 am

K wrote: I mean, all the anime guys I see do blasting stuff at a minimum. What is the Wizard supposed to get?

Anime doesn't really have Wizards. It has various forms of fighting guys who literally do everything, but sometimes they stab people. I mean, if Inuyasha is any indicator, the BBEG can raise the dead, shoots blasts, control demons, stab people, create wards, and dispels magic.

But Naraku is a wizard. Up to hating direct physical combat even. Okay, technically he is a really powerful demon, but these in DnD act primarily as spellcasters anyway.

You have half a valid point in that many of the powerful anime guys have some sort of ranged attack. Which is actually what a fighting guy needs in a world when not all enemies are willing to fight on his terms. But it is not necessarily blasting. Lots of characters just shoot people or throw weapons at them. Not counting those who actually use magic...

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:41 pm

And what's so wrong about giving melee specialists a ranged attack? Is not like they will outshine a ranged specialist in that area.

Preferably one with an in-built way to try to reach enemies: Crowd Control or a MINOR (enphasis here) teleport/speed buff spell.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:30 am

Red_Rob wrote: Only because D&D spellcasting is the most unrestrained, unfocussed representation of magic I've seen implemented in a game. They're bascially superpowers. Now I can see how things got to this point, what with everyone else having no abilities beyond "climb a wall" or " hit it with a sword" meaning everything interesting had to be a spell, but really the whole philosophy that Wizards should be able to do anything they want as a standard action has got to go.

Currently there are spells that deal damage, cause status affects, cast illusions, summon helpers, increase fighting ability, gain powers like flight or super speed, Save or dies, stat boosters, shrink or disintegrate things, teleport, right up to the ultimate spells that just say "Fuck it, what do you want me to do?". In order for anyone else to have any kind of mechanical area to call their own you really need to limit Wizards spell selection a'la the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. This seems to have been the way the later Tome classes have gone, and imho gives a stronger class identity and frees up space for the martial characters to take some of the slack.

Yeah, D&D casting is busted beyond belief. Even specialist wizards are ridiculously generalized.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:32 am

okay so I didn't know who naraku was so I looked it up on youtube.

if your game tries to emulate inuyasha then you have failed

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:55 am

K wrote:I mean, if Inuyasha is any indicator, the BBEG can raise the dead, shoots blasts, control demons, stab people, create wards, and dispels magic.

In Inuyasha, Naraku can pretty much do whatever he wants because he's the antagonist and can do whatever is demanded by the author for a given episode. But the antagonists all have much more narrowly defined schticks and don't necessarily have a perfect ability to handle every situation. Characters in Bleach and Naruto have more powers in their repertoire, but they are still predominately defined by the powers that tie into their character concept (omnipowerful DBZ-style antagonists and protagonists not withstanding). A melee warrior in an anime-flavored FRPG is going to have powers related to their primary schtick (cutting people up with swords) and a handful of supplementary powers to help offset the weaknesses of their chosen theme (Flash Steps, Wind Scars, Regeneration, etc.). That's a much better arrangement then what most melee classes get in FRPGs right now, where they are either dependent on magical items or buff spells. Conversely, spellcasters should be forced to narrow their focus (Star Mage, Summoner, Beguiler, etc.) while being allowed to choose powers to offset their own weaknesses. You end up with heroic anime-style characters with roughly equivalent power levels that can all contribute to the game and no one ends up feeling like Krillan at the end of a game session.

sake · Post by **sake** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:42 am

Ganbare Gincun wrote:and no one ends up feeling like Krillan at the end of a game session.

Krillan's a bad example for the Fighter/wizard problem since strictly speaking Krillan had more or less the same number of gimmicks and powers as Goku. The only real difference between them was pure stats and the number of dice they got to throw around.