Fixing Overpowered Spell Casters

[Lance Twillman]

Assuming I'm playing 3.0 or 3.5 or Pathfinder, what relatively simple measures do you recommend to nerf mid-to-high-level casters?

I think there are two main problems I'm trying to address (but you're welcome to rephrase the problem if you wish):

1) Linear Fighters, Squared Wizards.

2) Spells that screw up modules or let PCs bypass parts of the adventure that you would like them to partake in (primarily because you think they will enjoy them).

In some adventures, a "Fly" spell can completely mess with things. But most DMs plan for that. So I'll leave it up to you to specify which spells have caused problems in YOUR campaigns.

I'd like to accomplish this by just crossing some spells off the spell list. Or modifying them as needed.

Thanks!

P.S. Rope Trick is the first one I crossed off.

[Maxus]

1) Invite the fighters to play with the big boys. You know, angels, demons, dragons, spellcasters, etc.

2) Shapechange. Teleport?

Although, honestly, module writers tend to forget how many options there are at high level. This is their fault, not those of the players.

[Lance Twillman]

Although, honestly, module writers tend to forget how many options there are at high level.

In AD&D and 3E I always enjoyed low and mid-level games the most (roughly 3-7). I'm happy to nerf many of the high-level spells and just turn high-level casters into "mid-level casters, with more spell points and hit points".

[Juton]

The quickest way to start fixing overpowered spell casters involves them not going first. This means banning or nerfing spells like moment of prescience or nerveskitter. It could also mean that more or all spells take one round to cast, like sleep or summon monster. You'd probably want to officially limit what types of divinations are available to the caster, the TO application of contact other plane should be out right banned IMO.

While that's a start you'll want to prune spells that make casters better rogues and fighters than rogues and fighters. You also want to craft adventures where the adventures will need to spend more than 15 minutes per day adventuring so the casters can't have all their buffs all the time.

[Chamomile]

While that's a start you'll want to prune spells that make casters better rogues and fighters than rogues and fighters. You also want to craft adventures where the adventures will need to spend more than 15 minutes per day adventuring so the casters can't have all their buffs all the time.

I try to craft my adventures with the mantra of "never stop moving." The concept being that your enemies are constantly maneuvering around you, and if you slow down more than is necessary for reasonable caution, you'll be worse off for it.

[TarkisFlux]

In AD&D and 3E I always enjoyed low and mid-level games the most (roughly 3-7). I'm happy to nerf many of the high-level spells and just turn high-level casters into "mid-level casters, with more spell points and hit points".

Why go through the extra work of nerfing high level abilities then? Why not just play E6, or E8, or whatever level cap you stop enjoying the game beyond?

[Username17]

The only meaningful limit on D&D Wizards is their cap on powerful actions between 9 hour rest stops. Making it "difficult to rest" not only feels forced and dickish, but is in most ways simply not credible. I manage to rest every day and I can't even transport myself across the continent with a word. If you want people to stretch their resources, you want to make it "undesirable to rest". And that really just involves the adventure progressing in some fashion each day. It's the "what are you gonna do about it?" school of adventure design.

And of course: that completely ruins item creation feats except as a between-adventures thing, but that's OK if you put that up front.

-Username17

[Novembermike]

The only meaningful limit on D&D Wizards is their cap on powerful actions between 9 hour rest stops. Making it "difficult to rest" not only feels forced and dickish, but is in most ways simply not credible. I manage to rest every day and I can't even transport myself across the continent with a word. If you want people to stretch their resources, you want to make it "undesirable to rest". And that really just involves the adventure progressing in some fashion each day. It's the "what are you gonna do about it?" school of adventure design.

And of course: that completely ruins item creation feats except as a between-adventures thing, but that's OK if you put that up front.

-Username17

And I bet you've never had a demon hunting you either.

[erik]

So the solution to casters is 24/7 hounding by outsiders? I think that was already addressed by it seeming forced and dickish.

[Novembermike]

So the solution to casters is 24/7 hounding by outsiders? I think that was already addressed by it seeming forced and dickish.

That seems like a really specific solution to the problem. Why outsiders, and why only the casters? It's fairly easy to think up a story where there's a constraint along the lines of "you must do this before time runs out" or "now that they know you're onto them they're hunting you" or something similar. If you're leading a charge into an orc camp you can't exactly take a time out and rest before fighting the warlord, can you? If you leave and take your nine hour nap they'll have split, the gold will be buried and suddenly the assassin's guild has a half dozen contracts out on you.

[K]

So the solution to casters is 24/7 hounding by outsiders? I think that was already addressed by it seeming forced and dickish.

That seems like a really specific solution to the problem. Why outsiders, and why only the casters? It's fairly easy to think up a story where there's a constraint along the lines of "you must do this before time runs out" or "now that they know you're onto them they're hunting you" or something similar. If you're leading a charge into an orc camp you can't exactly take a time out and rest before fighting the warlord, can you? If you leave and take your nine hour nap they'll have split, the gold will be buried and suddenly the assassin's guild has a half dozen contracts out on you.

Players tend to rebel against being forced to push their resources to the limit. They'd rather fail the adventure and take partial treasure than get caught in a TPK.

Trying to punish that behavior is counter-productive. I mean, sending assassins after the party just means that instead of being in fights where they have no control over the situation, they instead have one where can choose the circumstances. They will do that because it's smart.

[Purple]

So the solution to casters is 24/7 hounding by outsiders? I think that was already addressed by it seeming forced and dickish.

That seems like a really specific solution to the problem. Why outsiders, and why only the casters?

That was your exact solution. It's not like he's putting words in your mouth. Jesus.

OT, I think this ground has been thoroughly tread and retread in the past. There are some spells like invisibility, fly, teleport and so on that simply obviate some kinds of adventures. If you want to run those kinds of adventures, either run them at a level where the players don't have those spells or remove the spells. Since the second option is kind of dickish, I'd go with the first and just get more imaginative with your adventure design at higher levels.

[Zak]

So because Fighters are eating shit everyone has to eat shit aswell at high level?

There are spells who just won't work in my campaigns. like CoP, but that is mainly because I do not plan specifics and do not care to do so 2 sessions in advance. A more structured MC should not have problems with this spell.

Rope Trick is not a big deal. Sometimes your players will miss certain plotpoints because of it, but that is their choice and I am totally fine with it. Same with transportation or divination spells which circumvent alot of the action. If I want to dungeoncrawl I play <level 7 and even then creative players always find ways to move outside the expected plot. Just roll with it and have fun.

Being a dick and forcing players (not characters) to do things they don't want to do is never a good idea.

[Wrathzog]

I don't think that there's a relatively simple way to fix the issue. It's too ingrained into the entire system that Full Casters are basically demi-gods.

But if you really want to do something, I would start with banning Clerics, Fighters, and Wizards.

[erik]

The trouble with 3e is not that casters are unfair. It is that non-casters both suck against foes of their level/CR and they are incredibly boring in their array of options in and out of combat on top of being inadequate.

[fectin]

Try reading through this related thread:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52249

Frank's advice is best: if you don't want them to skip to the end, don't put on an obvious finish.

[Swordslinger]

In some adventures, a "Fly" spell can completely mess with things. But most DMs plan for that. So I'll leave it up to you to specify which spells have caused problems in YOUR campaigns.

I'd like to accomplish this by just crossing some spells off the spell list. Or modifying them as needed.

Thanks!

P.S. Rope Trick is the first one I crossed off.

Nothing wrong with that.

From a balance perspective, cutting off a few of the wizard's options won't make him underpowered, because wizards just have so many options. Sometimes you want to tell a certain story and the spells just get in the way. Given all the magic that's available, none of the current campaign settings even make sense anyway.

You could cut long range teleportation from the game and people would hardly even miss it. The only thing it ever does is serve to let people twink the resource system by resting when they shouldn't be, or let them skip whole parts of the adventure.

[ubernoob]

You're thinking about this all wrong. If you want the players to stop being dicks and raping your encounters, there are a couple of solutions:
1) Nerf the players (dick move)
2) Increase the challenge level (not as much of a dick move, the players feel more satisfied when they win)
3) Just ask your friends not to be dicks
4) Be more creative so that "beating you" doesn't end the story.

I personally use options 2, 3, and 4 together. I mostly say this because the other day a buddy of mine told me "I'm never going to run a game where you've read the rule book because you will figure out how to break the game." My response was "Have you considered just asking me not to?" The conversation pretty much was finished after that.

TLDR: Tell better stories, get friends that aren't dicks, increase challenge level if needed (I once threw 2 planetars at a four person level 12 party, the party got curbstomped but it was a fun session for everybody).

Changing the rules is WORK and obviously that's the hardest one. Take the easy method (ask using the magic word).

[Novembermike]

That was your exact solution. It's not like he's putting words in your mouth. Jesus.

Where did I say "the characters should be eternally hounded by outsiders in every game"? That was just a pithy response to Frank's "I manage to rest every day" pants on head retarded stuff.

Players tend to rebel against being forced to push their resources to the limit. They'd rather fail the adventure and take partial treasure than get caught in a TPK.

Trying to punish that behavior is counter-productive. I mean, sending assassins after the party just means that instead of being in fights where they have no control over the situation, they instead have one where can choose the circumstances. They will do that because it's smart.

Tough shit for them. I'm not saying you eternally hound them, but if they back off before they finish their job then the people they didn't kill are going to come back for them. If they want to work a five minute work day that's their choice, but everyone else is working the full day.

EDIT: The big thing to remember when you're removing spells is that you want to remove ways for players to avoid being creative. Rope Trick is incredibly uncreative, you just do the same thing over and over again no matter the situation. Fly tends to be bad for player creativity as well, although it can have some good uses for indoor areas. Most save or dies are also bad for creativity since they obviate the need for real tactics in favor of one solution for every problem spells.

[Midnight_v]

In some adventures, a "Fly" spell can completely mess with things. But most DMs plan for that. So I'll leave it up to you to specify which spells have caused problems in YOUR campaigns.

I'd like to accomplish this by just crossing some spells off the spell list. Or modifying them as needed.

Thanks!

P.S. Rope Trick is the first one I crossed off.

Nothing wrong with that.

From a balance perspective, cutting off a few of the wizard's options won't make him underpowered, because wizards just have so many options. Sometimes you want to tell a certain story and the spells just get in the way. Given all the magic that's available, none of the current campaign settings even make sense anyway.

You could cut long range teleportation from the game and people would hardly even miss it. The only thing it ever does is serve to let people twink the resource system by resting when they shouldn't be, or let them skip whole parts of the adventure.

Again it's a better solution to just do the e6 thing instead of trying to not let wizard be uber, or whatever. See that way if you want at certain story you can without all the pretense that you've "balanced" anything. Which is a joke, honestly yea, the monsters still rip the face off the Swordsman, and the wizard can't really do shit to stop it.
If you want to play a game where you have Tank, healer, blaster, Sneak... there's a game out there, and really thats what most of these "lets nerf the wizard" guys are pining for.
The question should otherwise be about making the fighters, better.

[Lance Twillman]

Changing the rules is WORK and obviously that's the hardest one. Take the easy method (ask using the magic word).

I've been designing games for 35 years. Changing the rules, for me at least, is actually a lot easier than putting together a module every week.

My newest group of players have never played 3.x. So it's not like they'll miss the spells I take out. And we've already clearly established that 3.x didn't put any thought into balance at high levels. So it's not like I'll "ruin" the game balance by removing some spells.

Removing things is the easiest way to change rules...

[Novembermike]

Again it's a better solution to just do the e6 thing instead of trying to not let wizard be uber, or whatever. See that way if you want at certain story you can without all the pretense that you've "balanced" anything. Which is a joke, honestly yea, the monsters still rip the face off the Swordsman, and the wizard can't really do shit to stop it.
If you want to play a game where you have Tank, healer, blaster, Sneak... there's a game out there, and really thats what most of these "lets nerf the wizard" guys are pining for.
The question should otherwise be about making the fighters, better.

Wizards are broken because the spell list was half copy paste from older editions that wasn't play tested. It's perfectly reasonable to get rid of the most egregious and genre breaking stuff (Teleportation, Rope Trick, Save or Dies etc).

[hogarth]

In some adventures, a "Fly" spell can completely mess with things. But most DMs plan for that. So I'll leave it up to you to specify which spells have caused problems in YOUR campaigns.

I'd like to accomplish this by just crossing some spells off the spell list. Or modifying them as needed.

Thanks!

P.S. Rope Trick is the first one I crossed off.

The only (core) spells I'm not really crazy about from a game world point of view are (Greater) Teleport/Plane Shift and Planar Binding/Gate (et al.).

[CatharzGodfoot]

The only meaningful limit on D&D Wizards is their cap on powerful actions between 9 hour rest stops. Making it "difficult to rest" not only feels forced and dickish, but is in most ways simply not credible. I manage to rest every day and I can't even transport myself across the continent with a word. If you want people to stretch their resources, you want to make it "undesirable to rest". And that really just involves the adventure progressing in some fashion each day. It's the "what are you gonna do about it?" school of adventure design.

And of course: that completely ruins item creation feats except as a between-adventures thing, but that's OK if you put that up front.

-Username17

And I bet you've never had a demon hunting you either.

Every demon worth mentioning has greater teleport at will. So when a demon is hunting you, you either find somewhere that locks out teleportation and sit tight (and yes, rest/prepare/cast/rest/...) or you buff yourself up and go nova on the demon. Doing other stuff generally won't help much...

...unless the DM is just using the demon as a bullshit excuse to keep you from resting, but that seems pretty unlikely.

[Username17]

Players tend to rebel against being forced to push their resources to the limit. They'd rather fail the adventure and take partial treasure than get caught in a TPK.

Trying to punish that behavior is counter-productive. I mean, sending assassins after the party just means that instead of being in fights where they have no control over the situation, they instead have one where can choose the circumstances. They will do that because it's smart.

Quite. In fact, I'd go even further and state that if you send assassins after the party while they are resting they will assume that assassins will come after them while they are resting and become more conservative and take shorter work days. In order to husband resources that they can use in the apparently inevitable camp site battles after they stop actively adventuring.

Camp attacks are not a cure for a five minute workday, they create a four minute workday.

-Username17