Water Treatment Spells

K · Post by K » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:14 am

The easiest way to get rid of the water is with beholders that disintigrate a 10' cube of it a round.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:11 am

Dessicators (LM) might be even more efficient, not sure though.

Oh, speaking of undead, I think we as players of games in fictional worlds (who aren't always the most normal of people), are overlooking the fact that the average person is going to be horrified by the prospect undead labour, and won't really care about how safe or ethical it is, just that it offends their sensibilities. So someway of obtaining long term or permanent constructs needs to be worked out. Sadly, astral construct and animate object can't be persisted, and the Y in (spell level x caster level x Y) for constructs remains mysterious (to my math, anyway).

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:39 am

So we're really looking at a simple and otherwise bland construct. So, like this?

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Peon_%283.5e_Monster%29

Edit: Although caster level 9th....Trying to remember what level Animate Dead comes online.

K · Post by K » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:44 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Sadly, astral construct and animate object can't be persisted, and the Y in (spell level x caster level x Y) for constructs remains mysterious (to my math, anyway).

The spell animate object can be made permanent with permanency. It costs XP, but there are several ways around that.

My personal army is made of simulacrums.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:50 am

@Maxus, pretty much, and even that's a bit more than what's really necessary. Animate Dead comes online at 7th level for arcane casters, 5th for clerics, i think.

@K, I overlooked that. I've been out all day, away from my books, so I was looking at the srd on my phone. Didn't think to look at permanency.

Undead are honestly much more efficient, and I personally have no problem with them (seriously, dig up my family's bones and put them to work, I won't give a shit, though may ask for some monetary compensation). Maybe in the hypothetical world of Steammechs and Sweatshops anyone who objected to undead labour was marginalized because it was just too convenient (like the amish), or it's like TV, where people say it's bad, but there's still one in just about every home.

K · Post by K » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:57 am

Prak_Anima wrote:.

Undead are honestly much more efficient, and I personally have no problem with them (seriously, dig up my family's bones and put them to work, I won't give a shit, though may ask for some monetary compensation). Maybe in the hypothetical world of Steammechs and Sweatshops anyone who objected to undead labour was marginalized because it was just too convenient (like the amish), or it's like TV, where people say it's bad, but there's still one in just about every home.

I suspect that time spent around undead probably involves catching weird flesh-eating diseases, something DnD handwaves away.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:05 am

K wrote:I suspect that time spent around undead probably involves catching weird flesh-eating diseases, something DnD handwaves away.

Zombies, sure; properly prepped, dried, and bleached skeletons, no way.

You can also reduce the psychological factor by starting with nonhuman skeletons or by defacing all of them. Skulls go a long way toward making skeletons terrifying; replace all the skulls with pom-poms and they'd be much more acceptable.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:05 am

Possibly, though, one, that's nothing magic can't fix*, and two, there are a few specific undead that are specifically diseased, the rest seem to be assumed to be kept in somewhat sanitary stasis by the negative energy.

*there are those who think magic should carry consequences. These people are called christians (and idiots, but I digress), and they can shit up their own games with potion miscibility, random magic effects, and arcane pollution, and keep it the hell out of mine.

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:05 am

K wrote:I suspect that time spent around undead probably involves catching weird flesh-eating diseases, something DnD handwaves away.

Well, first, all of the negative energy infusing undead bodies probably wipes out germs and viruses and such just as much as it harms larger lifeforms, and second, if you have clerics capable of animating and controlling the undead in the first place, those clerics should be capable of removing any attendant diseases. If nothing else, having every skeleton laborer dunk itself in an acidic/antiseptic/curative/whatever bath every hour on the hour should take care of that pretty well.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:31 pm

Prak_Anima wrote: they can shit up their own games with potion miscibility

What kind of fucking dirty Communist are you, that you don't love good ol' red-blooded mom's apple pie potion miscibility?!?!??!

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:53 pm

DSMatticus wrote:
fectin wrote: and casts create water inside itself any round it is not half-full of water(1000gp + sphere cost)
You can probably make this work with a decanter of endless water and some wall of iron castings. Just saying.

True. And you'd get more power out of it. But it's also more expensive (9k), doesn't scale as well, needs managing and requires a higher level wizard (11th vs 9th). The decanter+walls approach would be better for a central plant, but I think that building reactors is better for distributed networks, and those are nearly always a better design.

DSMatticus wrote:Also, it's kind of amusing to realize that industrial age D&D's major pollutant could easily be magically created water and/or water vapor which is slowly flooding the entire planet. So, in preemptive preparation for the doomsday scenario of their reckless, unsustainable energy policy of polluting the world with water, what's the quickest way you can think of to dispose of their excess? (Don't say 'develop alternative energy sources, like ring gates.' That's what some pussy scientist would say. We're magicians.) Also, this would help OP's original question as well as contributing to a hypothetical BBEG's plans to dehydate the world.

You know, on waterworld this isn't a problem. Who doesn't like steampunk pirates?

But if you have to be a party-pooper, use many, many zombies to reshape the world to have a distinct bowl, with canals leading to it. It takes a while, but you also have a while. That bowl doubles as a reservoir and a drain. Use wall of iron repeatedly to make a series of filters around it, probably with 10 foot openings, then five, then 1. Then drive a 20 foot wide shaft ~ 50 feet down at the middle, line it with wall of iron, and drop a sphere of annihilation at the bottom. That should pull a crapton of water out of your system. Other options than spheres include extradimensional items (bags of holding) with cuts in them, but if you're going for a worldwide solution, the sphere would be the way to go.

Edit: fixed tags

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:55 pm

Was solving this problem how Dark Sun came about?

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:58 pm

Emerald wrote:
K wrote:I suspect that time spent around undead probably involves catching weird flesh-eating diseases, something DnD handwaves away.
Well, first, all of the negative energy infusing undead bodies probably wipes out germs and viruses and such just as much as it harms larger lifeforms, and second, if you have clerics capable of animating and controlling the undead in the first place, those clerics should be capable of removing any attendant diseases. If nothing else, having every skeleton laborer dunk itself in an acidic/antiseptic/curative/whatever bath every hour on the hour should take care of that pretty well.

I have heard people make the hypothesis that since negative energy stops any further decay that it sterilizes the corpse.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:32 pm

Why are we using zombies now? What's wrong with using halfling commoners?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:41 pm

They only work 2/3rds as long, need to be regularly fed and occasionally steal your magic ring and throw it into a volcano.

Just another user · Post by **Just another user** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:50 pm

Emerald wrote:
K wrote:I suspect that time spent around undead probably involves catching weird flesh-eating diseases, something DnD handwaves away.
Well, first, all of the negative energy infusing undead bodies probably wipes out germs and viruses and such just as much as it harms larger lifeforms

Or maybe negative energy will create undead germs.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:33 pm

Not according to 1st ed Manual of the Planes... the Negative Plane was completely sterile.

Count Arioch the 28th · Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:47 pm

I remember the Positive energy plane was sterile as well back then.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:48 pm

That's true- I forgot that while it did breed all sorts of critters, they went POP after a few minutes from excess energy.

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:58 pm

Hmm. Is there any way to use Shadows to make a self-propagating, sustainable workforce? Give a continent to the rabbits, then order the shadows to eat half the rabbits annually?

K · Post by K » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:59 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Not according to 1st ed Manual of the Planes... the Negative Plane was completely sterile.

Bur who cares about the plane? I mean, the positive energy plane is sterile, bu that doesn't mean that normal living creatures full of positive energy don't get diseases.

In fact, since mummies and ghouls are both super-infectious, it stands to reason that undead can just be normally infectious.

I mean, even skeletons might be dissease carriers since they might have just enough negative energy in them to spawn weird undead diseases in the same way that living things have just enough positive energy to spawn normal diseases.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:53 pm

K wrote:
JigokuBosatsu wrote:Not according to 1st ed Manual of the Planes... the Negative Plane was completely sterile.
Bur who cares about the plane? I mean, the positive energy plane is sterile, bu that doesn't mean that normal living creatures full of positive energy don't get diseases.

In fact, since mummies and ghouls are both super-infectious, it stands to reason that undead can just be normally infectious.

I mean, even skeletons might be dissease carriers since they might have just enough negative energy in them to spawn weird undead diseases in the same way that living things have just enough positive energy to spawn normal diseases.

I'm a little confused here. How is this different in kind from DMs who discover new and exciting ways to make Wish useless? In both cases, you're suggesting cockblocking the players by inventing previously undocumented costs and consequences. There may be some key difference I'm not seeing; if so, I'd appreciate you pointing it out.

On your specific points:
Mummies infect you with disease in certain specific cercumstances. Eyes of Fear and Flame light you on fire in certain specific circumstances. Eyes of Fear and Flame are not themselves on fire, and mummies may not be themselves diseased (it's a little unclear). Neither of these creatures' existence implies that any other undead are on fire, nor that other undead are diseased.

Assuming for the moment that all undead are diseased, that is still a solveable issue. If it's rotting flesh-based, the simple answer is don't use zombies. Otherwise, disinfect them periodically, and keep them away from people. There's carrion on the roads all the time now (and most armadillos carry leprosy!), and people are rarely affected. If skeletons are also hosts, make sure you dry them out well first, and maybe seal the bones with mud+mud to stone. If they are somehow supernaturally virulent, and constantly spawn new diseases, the DM is a tool.

I'd write something here about the morality of necromancy, but I think that's already been covered in depth elsewhere, better than I could.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:18 pm

It might make more sense to have certain undead inflict disease as special cases. Mummies because of the Curse of the Pharaohs, ghouls because they are basically that guy from Bizarre Foods, etc. Might help break up the metagame as well, because if a player is banking on his knowledge of ghosts, he will be surprised when the Laughing Specter gives him thaumorrhea because of a curse on the Specter's family.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:25 pm

I still want to know why you're even wasting your time with undead labor in the first place. I got some non-answer about zombies or whatever being able to work for a greater amount of the day and also not needing food--but this conveniently ignores the fact that there's a limit to how many undead you can dedicate to a project and how much supervision they need to get anything done anyway.

A gaggle of halfling commoners are comparably strong to humans (two of them are about as strong as one human), eat much less, have much more morale, and are good with their hands. More importantly however is that you can dedicate a thousand to of them to a project and have much fewer logistic or supervision issues. And halfling foremen are a lot easier to come by than 5th-level and above clerics.

Using undead as your personal servants is very, very handy in a lot of ways but sure as fuck not for large-scale projects.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:27 pm

That idea is really good as an adventure hook, and really bad for business as usual. It's exactly like efreeti: one vengeful efreet is (potentially) interesting and story-driving. Every efreet being a self-destructive dick is just irritating.