Running Frank's and K's Tomes

[Captain_Bleach]

So I am planning on making my own setting and planning on using everything from Frank and K's Tomes. What races and classes from the PHB could be used "out of the box?"
How would the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and other core classes stand up to the Tome classes?

[cthulhu]

The objective on the tomes are to bring the other classes up to that level. So cleric, druid, sorcerer and wizard okay (exception might be sorcerer, but it is still plenty good.)

[JonSetanta]

Will there be a "Sorcerer fix" in an upcoming Tome?

We all know there's enough on Wizards.com, and I've made a few (variant methods of casting, HD type, abilities etc) but something by F n K will surely be worth seeing.

[Catharz]

Sorcerer suckage isn't that bad of a balance issue. They're still playing the same game as other full casters, they just happen to represent the weakest of the elite.

And there are a lot of easy sorcerer-fix house rules if you want to give them a slight boost: Get rid of the arbitrary metamagic bullshit, give them bonus feats, accelerate their casting by one level starting at level two or three, or any of a number of other major and minor tweaks.


But really, there sorcerer is there with the thief acrobat and rogue as being 'good enough that you don't have to worry (unless the player makes shitty spell choices)'.

[cthulhu]

Yeah, thats my view on it.

[Username17]

Keith pretty much exclusively plays Sorcerers on the grounds that playing other full casters "feels like cheating" and is "too much work". I understand where he's coming from. A Sorcerer only gets to select their prepared spells when he levels up - which also means that he only has to pick prepared spells once in a great while and almost never during a game session.

It's a master level class. If you can seriously go through the spell list once and pick out all the stuff you're going to need for your whole level - you'll do OK. It means that you really have to know the system inside and out to get a Sorcerer character off the ground without major suckage.


-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

Also, isn't the fact that Clerics, Druids, and Wizards can "learn" new spells either by praying or finding spellbooks/scrolls make them a lot more powerful than those who learn spells and have to stick with them until they level up?
I tried to point this out to Loremaster, but he replied that Sorcerers' abilities to use more spells per day would make them be able to "tough it out" more.

P.S. What about Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues? Could they be used out of the box? Or should I just use the "Thief-Acrobat" for the Rogue?

[Catharz]

I think it's already been stated that in the context of a Tome campaign the rogue is a UMD-specialist with a bunch of fire/acid/cold flasks and an epic feat at level 10. If you don't end up a Holy Avenger in one hand and a Staff of Something Mean in the other, you're not doing it right.

If you want to play a more 'thiefy' rogue, go with the acrobat.

[cthulhu]

However, the player with the rogue really needs to know the game system upside down, otherwise they will suck and get pissed off.

[MrWaeseL]

He can still rule the out-of-combat game.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1186819565[/unixtime]]Keith pretty much exclusively plays Sorcerers on the grounds that playing other full casters "feels like cheating" and is "too much work". I understand where he's coming from. A Sorcerer only gets to select their prepared spells when he levels up - which also means that he only has to pick prepared spells once in a great while and almost never during a game session.

Yeah, those are the reasons Sorcerers appeal to me, too. All the choices you make have a number of total options that roughly corresponds to the amount of time you have to make that choice (ie, in combat, you have a few options, levelling up, you have a whole ton, but you can do that at home).

In my first 3.X game, I played a Sorcerer, and despite not knowing anything at all about the system, I wasted almost no game time on in-combat decisions, and just got advice from the DM on what spells to select when we levelled. And, during game sessions, I only had to keep track of what four or five actual different spells did. It was awesome, and the character did fine during the adventures.

I do agree, though, that the class is incredibly easy to self-sabotage, which is why I'd probably juice it up if giving it to a new player who really wanted to pick their own spell list. Probably just let them swap out a spell every level and use metamagic properly. And strongly suggest that they take Sculpt Spell and battlefield control spells.

[endersdouble]

Frank, would you disagree with buffing the Sorcerer a bit so people who, like K, want the simplicity, don't have to penalize themselves for doing so?

Say, pushing Spells per Day up a level (so they actually get 2nd level spells at level 3 and the like?)

[Jacob_Orlove]

For people who know what they're doing, it's actually nice to have a weaker caster class. That way you don't have to self-nerf to avoid the dirty cheating feel of playing a Wizard, or a Beguiler.

[Koumei]

That being said, every time WotC decide to split spells up they deliver another kick to the crotch of Sorcerers. Granted, I'm sure they never learned Symbol, but if they did, well, 3.5 comes along and splits Symbol into multiple spells. Why? To kick the Sorcerer in the nuts.

The various Monomorph spells do the same thing, except each individual spell also happens to completely suck. So while I might give the Wizard the finger and say "Learn these, bitch." and do the same to any Clerics who manage to get Polymorph/PaO/Shapechange/Alter Self through domains, I'd let the Sorc just take the original spells, with the understanding that they wouldn't do anything especially abusive.

Or alternatively, use "Spell packages". Using the Tome spells, for instance, if a Sorcerer decides "I want to learn a shape changing spell", they take the "Polymorph" package, and get all of the Tome "______ Form" spells. Likewise gaining all "Summon Monster" spells as one package, all Symbols etc.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Honestly, it really doesn't matter if there are 50 spells you don't take, or 500. If a certain kind of ability is absolutely crucial to your character concept (maybe you really want to be a summoner), then sure, make allowances, but otherwise, people can do fine with the spells available, so there's no real need to condense things.

And D&D can't do shapeshifting. Period. Get a Hat of Disguise, cast Enlarge Person, and call it a day.

[Judging__Eagle]

There was a Frank Sorcerer kicking around somewhere around in "it's my own invention"

The idea was that it gained 1/2 the spells per day as a wizard (1 spell would change to 0, like a Bard or Ranger/Paladin) and you had to make .... either it was level + cha checks or spellcraft checks to cast arcane spells, and a higher check to cast divine spells.

[MrWaeseL]

1187030273[/unixtime]]There was a Frank Sorcerer kicking around somewhere around in "it's my own invention"

The idea was that it gained 1/2 the spells per day as a wizard (1 spell would change to 0, like a Bard or Ranger/Paladin) and you had to make .... either it was level + cha checks or spellcraft checks to cast arcane spells, and a higher check to cast divine spells.

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewth ... &postnum=0