Variant D&D Magic Systems

[RandomCasualty]

OK,so I got in this phase where I want to try to rewrite the D&D magic system, and I've got a few ideas.

I'm not certain what people think is better

General Concepts and new Mechanics
Action Point Casting: As the name implies, this one has certain spells require action points to cast. This will replace the normal X/day mechanic, and actually turn it into an X/level thing. This will generally cover abilities that are not combat abilities. So bypassing a lock with knock, teleportation, charming someone long term, or scrying would all require action points to pull off. Thematically this means that a wizard can do some cool stuff, but only a certain amount of times. Unlike conventional D&D, he can't just take a day off to rest to get all his powers back however. Using APs are a nice way to limit spells like divinations and still have them matter.

DM Action Pool:I was thinking also of having DM action points that refresh whenever PC APs do, to help keep the DM honest as far as refreshing the PC's action pool. So the DM can't utilize certain goodies during his adventure unless he gives the PCs their points back as well. These APs can be spent on any NPC and may also have certain other effects to influence PC stuff.

Variant Spell Systems
I'm definitely dumping Vancian casting. No more spell preparation at all. The question is what to replace it with. I'm left with two ideas after the whole thing is over with.

Choice A - Beguiler Style casting: Probably the simplest to implement. In this one, everyone casts like a beguiler. Some spells require APs to use in addition to the slot to prevent them from being abusable. Others recharge as normal.

Choice B - Spell Group Casting: In this system, a character chooses a different spell 'package' each level. So you may choose something like "Basic Divination". Each package has some spells that can be cast at will, others that can be cast once per encounter and others that require the use of an action point to cast. So for instance, basic divination may give you detect magic/ poison at will, true strike and see invisibility once per encounter, and you can use an action point to cast locate creature, locate object or augury. Spell groups have prereqs, but generally not large amounts of prereqs, so it's a bit easier to dip mage.

Now, a few questions:

First, do you think these styles will innately work.

Second, do you think they could work together. Could it be possible to have one class like the cleric go Beguiler style and the wizard go with a spell group selection? Or would this be too much.

[Manxome]

You do realize that telling us that things will take "action points" to cast doesn't actually mean anything unless you also say how/when the PCs get "action points," right?

You've implied that they're awarded each level, but you've only implied it, and you haven't said whether they're refreshed each level or added to each level (the latter implying that unused ones from early levels can be "carried over" into later levels).

Either way, having "uses per level" limitations would seem to mean that DMs cannot run a game where character advancement is atypically fast or slow (including changing the ratio of combat to non-combat stuff, unless they both have equal ratios of expected action point use to XP awarded) without screwing with game balance, which isn't necessarily a problem, but it's certainly something you should be aware of...

EDIT: And I would seriously reconsider the name "action points" for something that's awarded every level. It makes me think of something that limits the number of actions you take, which makes me think it's going to be a per-round limit.

[Cielingcat]

Action points are an existing mechanic introduced in Unearthed Arcana and Eberron.

[Manxome]

Oh. Sorry. Nevermind then.

I really should know better than to jump into these conversations...

[Koumei]

Interesting idea. It would help stop Scry or Die tactics - if there's a way that Scrying can reliably be blocked (a saving throw that actually has a chance of being made, whatever), then people wouldn't just go willy-nilly scrying on everything, and even when the tactic does work first time, that's 1 to see the place and another to get there.

Likewise the planeshifting circle of doom would cost what, 3 action points per round?

It could limit a lot of really dumb things, unless there are stupid ways of getting AP back that I'm not aware of. I really hope not.

As for spell packages, I like the sound of that. I was considering implementing some sort of path system for a Sorcerer variant (because every man and his dog needs to make a Sorcerer variant) that worked a little like the Spheres, but this takes it to the next level. Not bad at all.

I can't comment on whether or not it's balanced though.

[Jacob_Orlove]

There are really dumb (bardic?) spells in Eberron that break action points in half, but those would presumably not be used.

[Lago_AM3P]

Action Point Casting: As the name implies, this one has certain spells require action points to cast. This will replace the normal X/day mechanic, and actually turn it into an X/level thing. This will generally cover abilities that are not combat abilities. So bypassing a lock with knock, teleportation, charming someone long term, or scrying would all require action points to pull off. Thematically this means that a wizard can do some cool stuff, but only a certain amount of times. Unlike conventional D&D, he can't just take a day off to rest to get all his powers back however. Using APs are a nice way to limit spells like divinations and still have them matter.

As someone who tried for a few years to squeeze the blood out of the d20 modern turnip, let me say that action points are one of the most irritating things in that system.

Here's some of the problems I had with trying out that crap.

A) In d20 modern, some class features require the use of action points. Imagine if in D&D you could put any spell you knew into any spell slot. No such things as levels. You can see what might happen; people load up every single slot with polymorph other.

d20 modern allows you to do a huge range of activities, ranging from woefully unexciting crap like spending action points to increase your chances of getting in a club, to more fun things like making free scrolls or finding wildshape forms, to totally awesome things like throwing a no-SR/ignore hit dice multiround blasphemy and automatically threatening a critical hit. All coming from the same pool.

Imagine if D&D scrapped its spell slot system and replaced them with 'mana points', only every spell cast the same amount of mana.

Yeah. No way, dude.


No one has ever come up with a satisfactory way to replenish limited use abilities. Well, as far as d20 goes, Book of Nine Swords came the closest in my opinion. It assumes (as long as you're not an idiot and pick warblade) that you are going to burn through your limited use abilities really fast but gives you a light rap on the wrist if you go through them TOO fast.

Regardless, per level has to be the worst scheme I've ever seen. It was bad enough at low level in d20 modern when you pretty much need them to survive (the massive damage rules are a KILLER)--but when the game starts handing out class abilities based on them that's so freaking weak I don't know what to say. So why didn't your martial artist flip out and fight the sprawl gangers who were assaulting her boyfriend? Well, because she doesn't know if at some point in the future she's going to see a dragon or an alien horde or WHAT.

Per day is dumb in D&D but at least it's in character. I mean there's tales of people who burn out on power and have to go hide or apply ass-kicking on a strict schedule. Per level forces the player to plan for a future they inherently have no idea if it's even going to exist and is based on something a character can't even act upon.

Please don't put per-level ANYTHING in your campaign. Seriously, if you don't want players abusing stuff, do SOMETHING ELSE rather than have them gamble on whether or not you're going to hand out a lot of experience in the future. Even big-penis NPCs coming down to hurt the players if they scry-and-die too many times is preferrable from a metagame standpoint.

[RandomCasualty]

1186877044[/unixtime]]
Imagine if D&D scrapped its spell slot system and replaced them with 'mana points', only every spell cast the same amount of mana.

Well, no, the thing is that AP spells wouldn't be combat spells. Fireball and the like would just be regulated on a per day, or per encounter basis or may even be something you can cast at will. AP requiring spells are stuff like scrying or teleportation, or divination. Probably long term charms and dominates would fit here too. I was thinking of only charging the AP to extend the dominate or charm's duration beyond a few minutes.

No one has ever come up with a satisfactory way to replenish limited use abilities. Well, as far as d20 goes, Book of Nine Swords came the closest in my opinion. It assumes (as long as you're not an idiot and pick warblade) that you are going to burn through your limited use abilities really fast but gives you a light rap on the wrist if you go through them TOO fast.

I like the Bo9S approach for combat abilities, but it does a terrible job with utility spells. You don't want someone casting augury for every action they may take. You need some limit.

Regardless, per level has to be the worst scheme I've ever seen. It was bad enough at low level in d20 modern when you pretty much need them to survive (the massive damage rules are a KILLER)--but when the game starts handing out class abilities based on them that's so freaking weak I don't know what to say.

Well, I don't intend every spell to be AP based. Like I said, you can damn well throw orbs of fire to your hearts content, and maybe cast a sleep spell once per encounter. AP based spells are for things you don't want PCs to be casting all the time.

And I feel that per level is the best limiter in this case. The thing is that per day doesn't actually mean anything in a story context. Some stories are fast paced, others are slow paced... and well, a per day system tends to bone people who try to move fast and help people who want to take it slow. Generally though in a game context, taking a dungeon down one room at a time and then resting is boring, and it strains the DM to constant come up with ways to rush his PCs.

But why bother? Seriously, why not limit it by level, that way you're assured the PCs have X amount of encounters in a given time frame and can't replenish their resources prematurely. As far as being unfair in that it forces wizards to ration their APs, that's fine. I mean that's what the basic system in D&D is supposed to do, only it fails miserably at it, because wizards can just damn well go rest whenever they want and meet every battle with full spells.

The other mechanic I considered was something that was per adventure, or with an arbitrary refill mechanic for APs. I figure that by creating a DM AP pool as well that refreshes when the PCs pool does, you can make that somewhat fair.

[JonSetanta]

I've been itching for a decent SLA caster, but only thing I've seen for years has been Warlock (barf) and Tome of Fiends sphere-users (needs work)

I'll have to devise something and 'throw it out there' too, since my own spellpoint system didn't work out so well at later levels.

[RandomCasualty]

1186916114[/unixtime]]I've been itching for a decent SLA caster, but only thing I've seen for years has been Warlock (barf) and Tome of Fiends sphere-users (needs work)

I'll have to devise something and 'throw it out there' too, since my own spellpoint system didn't work out so well at later levels.

Yeah, the warlock was a cool concept, it's just too bad they made him suck.