Sell Me On SAGA

[Fuzzy_logic]

Yeah, you can dual wield rapid heavy pistols at level 1, if you cna get your hands on two military-grade guns and are willing to take a -7 to hit.

Regardless, even if you think Force-users are the bomb-- which may well be the case-- there's a huge variety of builds available.

Here are a few Force builds off the top of my head.

The Gish (Jedi/Jedi Knight/Jedi Master) -- hack people down w/ lightsabers, use Jedi tricks to stay alive and use powers for your ranged attacks.

The Hackmaster -- Forget the Force, you just want the lightsaber! You probably have UTF for Deflect, Surge, and maybe a couple others, but mostly you're a Soldier/Jedi/Knight/Trooper/Officer With melee feats and heavy armor.

The Mystic (high-level build) -- a Noble/Soldier/Jedi/Scout/ForceAdept/ForceDisciple/JediMaster. Max UTF and use powers for acceptable combat ability. multiclass ot get mroe talents, until you can replace almsot any skill with a UTF check. Be a skills god who always shoots first, can fly anything, heal any wound, and talk anyone down.

The Bard -- Who needs a glowstick when you've got the Force? Or BAB for that matter? Load up on force powers like a Stun jedi, but be a noble or a scout. Run around being diplomatic and buffing your firiends, or sneak up on people and stun them from behind.

[Voss]

1187237981[/unixtime]]Yeah, you can dual wield rapid heavy pistols at level 1, if you cna get your hands on two military-grade guns and are willing to take a -7 to hit.

Oh, they don't really do the 'You're first level, so you can't have real guns' bullshit, do they? Ah, the fake balance through magically stopping low level characters from having real weapons. The bane of better modern/future games than this.

[virgil]

They don't stop you from having 'real guns' per se, but you do start the game with a finite amount of money; so you can't walk in the door decked out in powered armor and an E-Web blaster. You actually have to walk across the room to pick them up

There aren't any given guidelines for how much money your party gets from anything they do, so it's pretty much a non-issue within the first session without going against the RAW. Thus the GM will be the arbiter of your resources, who will make it as difficult/easy as he sees fit. Ideally he's not an arse about it.

As for the dual-wielder, it is more of a mook-sweeper technique than a BBEG killer, because that attack penalty hurts.

EDIT: Y'know, someday I'll stop editing my posts so much...
As for my addendum, I've contemplated creating the equivalent to the Iron Will feat to grant a +5 to Will Defense, as there are few methods to increase that defense; especially since there's a feat that gives +5 to damage threshold already, and circumstances abound that give bonuses to Reflex defense.

As for the front-loading of skills itself, one might try having skill proficiency change your bonus to that skill to +level instead of +level/2, and Skill Focus still grants a +5 bonus. This creates an advantage for the specialist over the proficient without making it a 'tower of power' at the start, and by the time it reaches the full bonus at 10th level, everyone else should actually have a real defense against the skill.

I'm not certain on the influence this will have for the very high end of gameplay, where your skill bonus will potentially be +5 higher than before, so it will take a little bit more thought to consider possible hiccups.

[virgil]

Oh, as I reread the rules for Stealth in the game, I think I might have made a mistake in the interpretation. It's a bit annoying, as my old preconceptions of Hide/Move Silently in D&D create misconceptions in Saga because it seems 'close enough'. I'll include my summary of how Stealth works from an older thread (where PhoneLobster and I developed a bond that shall truly withstand the test of time). The change is in #2.

1) Sneak attack dice are doubled with a critical hit, so this actually helps it a little (not sure how much).

2) You get a single Perception check to notice someone as a Reaction when they enter line of sight. Other than that freebie, all further Perception checks require a standard action to notice who/what is around you.

3) If someone isn't even trying to hide (but not doing much besides moving around), it's a DC 5 to Notice him (medium creature) and a DC 15 if he's in total concealment.

4) Distraction is a standard action, and you need some kind of cover or concealment (if you can reach it with a move action) to regain Stealth

5) Once you are in Stealth, you can move about in the open.

6) Attacking breaks stealth, reveals your position to the victim, and everyone else gets to make a DC 5 check to know where you are.

7) You cannot go back into Stealth until your target is unaware of you, requiring a standard action to create a diversion.

#5 is probably my biggest point of uncertainty. There exists the distinct possibility that I'm still wrong, and that you have to end your move with some kind of cover to maintain stealth; though you should still be good with moving from cover to your target within a move action and then attacking that same round to catch them flat-footed.

I'm unsure of what happens when you do something after entering someone's LoS that changes your Stealth bonus (like moving from improved cover to no cover, or running). It could grant those in LoS another perception check as a reaction, it could recompare the last roll with the new modifiers (if the wall was the only thing keeping you noticed, losing it makes you noticed), or it might do something else.

[Catharz]

So, say you want to use a Jedi mind trick on Yoda. Impossible?

Yoda has a Will defense of 38, which is pretty good. we'll use a 20th level character to keep things fair.

For now we'll say that the character an Ithorian Scoundrel 3/Jedi 4/Force Adept 2/Jedi Knight 8/Jedi Master 3.

With a charisma of 22 and UtF trained and focused, that's a base bonus of 6+10+5 = 21. You'll trick Yoda on a 16 or better, not especially encouraging.
However, you also have Fool's luck, and you use it (because you're no fool). With a 26, you trick Yoda on an 11 or better. That's more encouraging.

You're also a Jedi Master, which means you can use Serenity to spend a full-round action and you automagically get a 46 on your UtF check. Not always applicable (i.e. hard to use in a quick combat), but it's still a guaranteed success.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Okay, first of all, the fact that it's possible to Mind Trick Yoda is actually a design feature, in a way. What you're saying is that offensive force powers have a chance of working against enemies of the same level. And while Yoda should never get fuzzy-headed like a stormtrooper, he isn't infallible--Sidious deceived him countless times. I would have no problem with a 20th-level Scoundrel/Jedi Master using Mind Trick to hide, for instance.

The Suggestion thign is mroe problematic, and perhaps needs some kind f house rules to make it unable to work on crucial storyline characters.

Really, though, the broken part here is Serenity. If you take that out of the picture, Yoda's got no real problems, since he always has Rebuke to defend himself with.

[RandomCasualty]

1187232275[/unixtime]]
And yeah, in D&D, there is this thing with CR appropriate encounters. A greater earth elemental is neither a mook nor a boss fight for a 9th level party. While you can fight hordes of weenies, it isn't the staple that it seems to be in SAGA. From the sample stuff they put on their website, the fights seem to be angled around a mass of backdrop characters that die if they get hit, but might be dangerous if they roll a nat 20.

That's pretty much what Star Wars is though. I mean, you rarely see any CR appropriate encounters. Generally in the movies, it's either a bunch of storm troopers versus the heroes or the heroes versus some uber jedi in a solo fight.

[Voss]

Sigh
Movie drama != Book drama != Game drama != Real drama

You may want to pull some sort of cinematic style combat out of your ass at the gaming table, but frankly, once you hit about 8th level, anything less than ~60 (or whatever... I'm sure someone can crunch the numbers and figure out the exact multiple of stormtroopers it takes to realistically threaten the party and how many more it takes to mathematically guarantee a TPK) stormtroopers is going to be an absolute cakewalk. Same with dog-pile on the BBEG. Unless you crank his level way past the characters' level, the mechanics of it boil down to simple mathematics or fudging the rolls to keep things interesting.

Thats the big problem I keep seeing with Saga- it all boils down to working out the mathematics ahead of time, not having fun. Barring the dice going way off the average, you're pretty much going to know exactly what will happen.

Its partly the skills, and partly a matter of switching saves to a single to-hit roll with a range thats utterly fvcked up. And thats before you add in the weaksauce that is the SW setting.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Wait -- your complaint about the system is that it's too easy to understand? Personally, as a DM, I *like* being able to figure out how combats are likely to go.

Anyway, you don't have to keep using plain stormtroopers; you can scale the mooks up slowly as well.

And besides, the assertion that all encounters are with either enemy uberjedi or massed stormtroopers is just untrue.

Besides mooks and uberjedi, try leveld NPCs with interesting tactics. Try mixing in beasts, war droids, and vehicles. There are a number of midrange threats in the core book, like Droideka, gunships, and Assassins/DarkSideMarauders.

[RandomCasualty]

1187635546[/unixtime]]

Anyway, you don't have to keep using plain stormtroopers; you can scale the mooks up slowly as well.

And besides, the assertion that all encounters are with either enemy uberjedi or massed stormtroopers is just untrue.

Well no, that wasn't referring to the game itself, but more the movies. In the movies, it's either a bunch of mooks or one uberboss basically.

It doesn't have to be that way in the RPG of course, but still the RPG is supposed to simulate the movies.

[Voss]

1187635546[/unixtime]]Wait -- your complaint about the system is that it's too easy to understand? Personally, as a DM, I *like* being able to figure out how combats are likely to go.

No, my complaint about the system is it comes down to crunching the numbers out and hoping a deviation from the statistical norms doesn't TPK your party when you actually play through the encounter.

You can build stupid good characters that are hitting DCs on a 3+ at 1st level, and at the other end of the spectrum, you have Darth Vader's stat block- he needs a 17+ to hit himself with his lightsaber and 19+ to Force Grip himself. So you've got this bizarre range where characters are either coming so close to auto-winning that it makes no difference, or at the other end of the scale you are essentially randomly rolling dice and hoping you can grind someone down before they do the same to you.

And I'm not even going to touch yet another bizarre attempt at the 'challenge level' system, which suggests that you should raise the CL on some battledroids because they *actually use cover*. And that 5 clone troops (averaging CL 2) are somehow a challenge for anything from a 2nd level to a 4th level party. Thats patent nonsense- even if the 4th level characters all did something stupid with their extra feat and talent, they can at least soak one extra shot, and all their attacks and defenses are two points higher- and thats without any attempt at optimizing the characters at all.

Then there are the beasts and nonheroic characters, which as concepts are so pathetically weak that I can't even grasp the thought process that went into them. Except for their perception skill and the blaster damage, they aren't even playing the same game. As a nonheroic level 4, a stormtrooper is CL 1. But so is a 1st level soldier, who is superior in every conceivable way. So whats the point, beyond wanting the characters to one-shot stormtroopers?

Though admittedly, in some cases stormtroopers auto-win. Once they are within 12 squares, they can toss their frag grenades (wtf? I don't remember any grenades in SW. It would have changed so much). Yeah, they'll auto-miss but they'll still do an average of 7. 5 will drop even a soldier, though a scout with the evasion talent won't be damaged at all.

[RandomCasualty]

1187645310[/unixtime]]
No, my complaint about the system is it comes down to crunching the numbers out and hoping a deviation from the statistical norms doesn't TPK your party when you actually play through the encounter.

Isn't this how all RPG combat goes?

[Username17]

2) You get a single Perception check to notice someone as a Reaction when they enter line of sight. Other than that freebie, all further Perception checks require a standard action to notice who/what is around you.

5) Once you are in Stealth, you can move about in the open.

So you're telling me that stealthy characters should in fact break cover very far away from their target and then sneak overland up to them without ever allowing themselves to be behind a car so that they can get up to strangling range.

I dub this tactic "stealth commute".

-Username17

[Voss]

1187656919[/unixtime]]

Isn't this how all RPG combat goes?

To a degree. But it seems Saga has fewer mechanics that buffer the players from the raw numbers. And apart from a very specific subset of attacks (which push you down the condition track into unconsciousness), you are just whacking (or blasting) away at the hit points.

Unless, of course, you realize that the system scales so badly and you can make a build that wins on a 3+. And that was part of what I meant by random deviation screwing things up. You could have a session with a lot of 1s and 2s, but odds are, you've got a clear winner.

And later on, you just take jedi master and just pause for a round before you nuke people with an at-will natural 20.