Pathfinder Is Still Bad

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:38 pm

These sorts of class-vs.-class fights prove basically nothing; in my experience, 90% of the result is determined by the player's tactics and the ground rules of the fight and 10% is determined by what class you choose.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:49 pm

summon swarm is a lot better than the monkey spell, now that I have looked. Bats can fly and have the Wounding ability. They are also immune to weapon damage. Speed is not an issue. Look at the swarm subtype. There is also a distraction/nausea chance, but it is only minimal.

So debuff from afar, blast or summon. Or you can just use transmutations to beat the monk at their own game, but whatever. Even in PF, beating a monk in an arena style encounter is hardly an accomplishment.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:05 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:I said 3-5 level, but yeah, I am sure a 5th level Wizard can find a way to royally screw over a Monk anyway.

If the Monk and the Wizard were both level 3 or 4, I am sure the Wizard could put the Monk out of commission with a simple Color Spray or Sleep spell.
The latter gives the Wizard a free chance to Coup de Grace the poor son of a bitch.

Maybe 50/50(less for sleep due to still mind), so I'm not certain "sure" is the right word to use here. And color spray is a 15' cone, so monk grappleslaps the hell out of wizard if it doesn't work.

So, basically these assumtive statements probably won't go a long way towards convincing the DM you speak of.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:14 pm

Winnah wrote:summon swarm is a lot better than the monkey spell, now that I have looked. Bats can fly and have the Wounding ability. They are also immune to weapon damage. Speed is not an issue. Look at the swarm subtype. There is also a distraction/nausea chance, but it is only minimal.

So debuff from afar, blast or summon. Or you can just use transmutations to beat the monk at their own game, but whatever. Even in PF, beating a monk in an arena style encounter is hardly an accomplishment.

Speed is definately an issue. The Monk can move out of and outpace most swarms and there's nothing the swarm can do about it. So Bat swarm is the way to go, because of the bleeding and speed equivelency. The monk's best bet here is to move towards to wizard and ignore the swarm, because then the swarm will then also attack the wizard (asuming they're the only 2 creatures around.) And you've just handed a weapon to the monk that can reach you while you fly.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:19 pm

hogarth wrote:These sorts of class-vs.-class fights prove basically nothing; in my experience, 90% of the result is determined by the player's tactics and the ground rules of the fight and 10% is determined by what class you choose.

Pretty much. Of course, you should add in some percentage for the rng's influence.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:36 pm

hogarth wrote:These sorts of class-vs.-class fights prove basically nothing; in my experience, 90% of the result is determined by the player's tactics and the ground rules of the fight and 10% is determined by what class you choose.

This, and PvP isn't what we do in the game.

If you want to prove that a monk isn't an "anti-caster", make him fight low-CR casters monsters like derro, aranea or pixies. Or better: use those monster in the game, and see if the monk help the group against those casters, by dispelling the darkness of the derro or preventing the aranea from charming his companions.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:45 pm

Good points. Thanks for the help...now if you'll excuse me, I'll go and wait for the guy to get online...

Edit: As expected, he is FUCKING RAGING.

K · Post by K » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:40 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:Good points. Thanks for the help...now if you'll excuse me, I'll go and wait for the guy to get online...

Edit: As expected, he is FUCKING RAGING.

Using any of the basic caster monsters should be a good enough test. Rakshasa or liches are good, and I'd stay away from glass-jaw monsters like pixies.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:52 pm

K wrote:Using any of the basic caster monsters should be a good enough test. Rakshasa or liches are good, and I'd stay away from glass-jaw monsters like pixies.

I'm sure I could create a 10th level monk that could (more often than not) beat a rakshasa using grappling in PFRPG, but it would prove exactly nothing other than "given enough time and effort and some creative definitions of 'peg' and 'hole', you can fit a square peg in a round hole".

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:17 pm

DMReckless wrote:
Winnah wrote:summon swarm is a lot better than the monkey spell, now that I have looked. Bats can fly and have the Wounding ability. They are also immune to weapon damage. Speed is not an issue. Look at the swarm subtype. There is also a distraction/nausea chance, but it is only minimal.

So debuff from afar, blast or summon. Or you can just use transmutations to beat the monk at their own game, but whatever. Even in PF, beating a monk in an arena style encounter is hardly an accomplishment.
Speed is definately an issue. The Monk can move out of and outpace most swarms and there's nothing the swarm can do about it. So Bat swarm is the way to go, because of the bleeding and speed equivelency. The monk's best bet here is to move towards to wizard and ignore the swarm, because then the swarm will then also attack the wizard (asuming they're the only 2 creatures around.) And you've just handed a weapon to the monk that can reach you while you fly.

No. Read the fucking swarm rules. They do not need to 'attack' in order to inflict damage. They just need to move into the monks space. Bats will have no trouble keeping up with a low level Monk. As long as they can keep up with the monk (they can), they keep attacking the monk. The round they appear, the wizard has already floated 60' away, 240' away if they decide not to concentrate, leaving the monk with a problem they can't handle.

Sure, the monk can then take an action to stop the bleeding, but guess what? The wizard has meaningful class features, so he can pull out a scroll and do it all over again. It does not have to be swarms, he can just sit in the fucking sky and pop magic missiles. It does not fucking matter, because this is old news. The only thing PF adds to this debate is new and exiting toys to humiliate monks with.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:28 pm

Create Pit isn't enough of an auto-win?

Do that, do whatever unpleasant thing you feel like to him, and laugh.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:20 pm

Just out grapple him with your hair at level 5.

Doesn't matter what your school is, you just need the hair spell prepared (twice, just in case).

Stats: Max out int, who cares what else.

Items: Int item, don't care about anything else.

Race: Human for the feat.

Feats: SF (transmutation), Varisian Tat (transmutation), Spell Specialization (strangling hair), Improved Init, Scribe Scroll

Traits: Init booster and CL +1 on hair spell

You now have CL + 4 on the hair spell, giving you a grapple of no less than +15.

First round: win init, cast fly, get into the air.

Second round: cast strangling hair.

All following rounds: Follow monk while your hair chokes him to death.

If you want to be a total dick, hit him with Reach spell (get a rod) Touch of Gracelessness a few times first just to debuff his ability to avoid grapples and cripple his move speed. Even if he saves he takes a dex penalty, so you gain no matter what. Ray of enfeeblement to is another way to debuff where saving doesn't matter. You can get his grapple mod down quite a bit and then auto-succeed your check against him.

You really do walk all over the poor guy. If he isn't build specifically for grapple (ie, did not max out STR) he will lose just to the hair spell.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:20 am

What you really should do is strangling neckbeard.

DMReckless · Post by **DMReckless** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:29 am

Winnah wrote: No. Read the fucking swarm rules. They do not need to 'attack' in order to inflict damage. They just need to move into the monks space. Bats will have no trouble keeping up with a low level Monk.

Yeah, never said they needed to attack, I said Bat swarm is the way to go because they have the speed to keep up. I said most other swarms don't. But based on your Pathfinder reading comprehension skills, I shouldn't have expected you to comprehend my posts either.

PS-Summon Swarm has a 1 round casting time. Maybe have someone explain to you what that means, yes?

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:11 am

Out grappling the "grapple-mancer" is much more satisfying, here are some numbers on Monks trying to grapple (and being worse than wizards).

How good is a Monk at defending against grapples?

Assuming strength 20 and Dex 20 (we'll assume the Monk wasted all his points because he picked Monk) you get a base CMD of 20. Add +2 for improved grapple to get 22 and another +1 for being a Monk who's above 4th level for 23. Add his BAB (he only gets Monk level to CMB, not CMD) for a grand total of 26. Yes, strangling neckbeard does have at least a 50% chance of grappling the Monk before any debuffs. This is assuming a massively beneficial stat array for the Monk.

Once grappled the Monk can try to get out with his own grapple checks, but those are only done at a +12 against the DC 25 neckbeard.

Two twenties is an impossible buy unless you're dumping two stats, though. It's actually just straight up impossible to do in Pathfinder with physical stats, so it's more likely the Monk will have a (maybe) 18 str and Dex.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:26 am

Isn't the standard point buy on the pathfinder pointbuy like a 15?

That makes 2 18s without a racial mod impossible, even with dumping everything else to a 7.

A far more realistic value is 18/16, though honestly, since it's a monk they also want Wis and Con, so 14 values probably aren't too hard to swallow. But being still very generous to the Monk giving a 18/16 takes that CMD down to 23, resulting in getting grappled pre debuffs about 65% of the time.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:52 am

DMReckless wrote: PS-Summon Swarm has a 1 round casting time. Maybe have someone explain to you what that means, yes?

Yeah, it means the swarm arrives, takes its action and then the wizard acts. No monk in range, the spell can be aborted.

If the monk has no fucking clue about basic trig and attempts to 'weaponise' the swarm, he runs underneath the wizard and game over.

If the monk runs away, the wizard can easily keep up and the monk eventually becomes fatigued with several minutes to spare on the fly duration. The wizard can just fake casting another spell...It's not as though monks get spellcraft.

Then the tired, broken and sobbing monk can eat another swarm. What the hell, the wizard can summon some monkeys to teabag the monk to death.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:36 pm

I was being nice and assuming a high fantasy point buy for the poor Monk. Lower point buys only further screw over all beatsticks, especially Monks.

Edit: I was honestly at a loss for my casters in Pathfinder. You can max out your casting stat on the lowest PB, so after getting Con up to 14 or 16 you just don't know what to do with the extra points.

A realistic PB (even for the high fantasy buy) for the Monk means Dex is likely ignored or put to a 13 for some feat prereqs while Strength is maybe an 18. Everything else goes Con and Wis, which still leaves the Monk fairly weak.

Monks are also fucking terrible at grappling because a monster can still full attack you in a grapple if it has natural or light weapons, meaning it kills the Monk in one round after receiving a hug before going on to fight actual threats.

Build a wizard who focuses on Strength and carries around a light weapon, casts Enlarge Person, and then murders the Monk when he tries to grapple. There's a transmuter who gets to make his own natural, magical weapons for free... Cast some Animal's X spells ahead of time (and haste) and then win in melee. Hilarity!

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:23 am

So. SKR has learned absolutely nothing from Savage Species.

Ultimate Magic has a cleric archetype called the Separatist. If you're a Separatist cleric of a god, you can choose one domain as usual and another domain from outside the god's usual pool, with a penalty to the powers from the second domain. This is a crap archetype, but it's not really any crappier than the rest of them, just crap in a boring and very noticeable way.

Someone made a thread on the Paizo forums, pointing out how mediocre this archetype is. SKR is going to the mat to defend it.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:[in reply to a post pointing out that the Separatist is identical to the cleric of a philosophy but weaker]

I wish I grew up in the magical world that you did, where every single choice you can make is the best choice. I wonder how McDonald's stays afloat in your world, what with having to pay its philosophy majors $50,000 per year just like doctors and chemists.

SKR wrote:Because it makes sense that, for a class powered by the will of a deity, deviating from the focus of that deity is going to be less than ideal in the deity's eyes, and thus you're going to lose a little power from it. Otherwise there's no reason to list what domains deities grant because you'd let a cleric of Iomedae take Death and Evil and be at full power compared to a cleric of Iomedae with Good and Law. And if you let the Death Evil Iomedae cleric be at full power, there's no reason to put names on deities at all, because you're just playing "pick two domains I want and ignore the canon for the setting."

SKR wrote:No, I'm pointing out to you that "balance" in an RPG where you have healing classes and damage classes and support classes is an illusion. Is the cleric with the Healing domain "balanced" against one with the Travel or War domains? Is the healing cleric balanced against the fighter? Or the barbarian? Or the sorcerer? Or the bard? How do you rate how "balanced" they are against each other? By how much damage they do? By how much damage they prevent or cure? By their total skill point bonuses?

[...]

Me, I'm going to write for, and play, a game where it's okay if you want to play a Indiana Jones-style wizard who starts with a 15 Dex and 12 Int and fights with a whip. And it's okay if you want to play a rapier-wielding swashbuckler rogue who multiclasses into fighter and cleric of luck because it suits his theme, even though it costs him BAB and access to some better feats. And it's okay if you want to play a dwarf fighter who's slow as hell, has a 20 Con and 100 hit points at level 7, and takes Great Cleave to finish off all the minions while his monk and barbarian buddies kill the leader. Because those are all fun character options. Even if the wizard is struggling to keep his Int in pace with the minimum needed for his higher-level spells... because sometimes the wizard pulls off an awesome move in combat that he couldn't do with a pathetic Dex. Even if the swashbuckler is always out-damaged by the lower-level paladin with a greatsword... because sometimes the swashbuckler crit-kills a beholder in one stab. Even if the dwarf only gets to use Great Cleave once in the entire campaign... because that one time he kills 8 foes in one round and convinces the campaign boss to surrender in the face of such might.

And, he's added to his profile:

I play RPGs to have fun. I design RPGs so people can have fun playing a roleplaying game. I don't care if a new rule isn't the "optional choice," or if it is "only for roleplayers," or "only for GMs." There are other playstyles than the one you use, and I have to design for all of them. If you don't think an option is worthwhile to your character, don't take it--that's why we have hundreds of options in the game, some of which will be better or worse for your idea of a character. I don't care about "optimal builds." I don't care about maximizing damage. I do care about having fun.

Just...wow.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:29 am

Yes, pity the poor, inadequate wizard...

K · Post by K » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:49 am

SKR is not a terrible designer of games because he wrote a suboptimal option.... he's a terrible designer because he doesn't understand that sucking at a game is not fun for people AND that getting honest feedback is how you become a better designer.

I swear, is there anyone getting paid to write content who is willing to admit a mistake rather than rant about the classic "Role-players are better than Roll-players" and how people should pay more character resources for better roleplaying options?

I swear, some days I think the RPG industry has both the largest untapped talent pool and the largest case of job-squatters of any industry.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:57 am

K wrote:I swear, is there anyone getting paid to write content who is willing to admit a mistake rather than rant about the classic "Role-players are better than Roll-players" and how people should pay more character resources for better roleplaying options?

That sounds like ROLLplayer talk to me!

Mostly, I'm just deriving entertainment from watching him flail. I've yet to see him offer any sort of actual insight on the development process.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:59 am

This is SKR. The same guy who made/defended the Monk Vow of Poverty option.

Have we seen any other PF devs spouting lines along the same vein?

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:04 am

Seerow wrote:This is SKR. The same guy who made/defended the Monk Vow of Poverty option.

Have we seen any other PF devs spouting lines along the same vein?

James Jacobs is a heavy-duty "dirty munchkins" advocate; the last eruption of his I can remember is from about a month ago, when he went off on a tirade, apropros of nothing, about how mean ol' powergamers made fun of the Paizo iconic character writeups for being hilariously weak and badly designed.

You know, the ones they posted to promote the release of Pathfinder. In 2009.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:42 am

I don't get it. How does he think the whip-wizard or fail rogue is going to pull off awesome moves, or why the FUCK I would take this shitty archetype and not refluff a deity cleric.

Because I really want my heretic of Boring-Ass Pathfinder God to be less powerful then the Necromancer Philospher in the corner. Yup.

Could you link to the thread? All I see on the forums is a tard whining about how a barbarian taking a sorceror level is min-maxing, and he needs a reason to do that so he can be a weal wolpwaya!