AD&D Optimization

[shirak]

On 3.5 we have several infinity combos and some very cute power loops. What was there during 2e? How did you break the game back in the old days?

About the only thing I know is that Psionicists with Psychometabolism rocked the house. Any other powerful classes/spells/whatever?

[josephbt]

i hated AD&D with all my heart. it was good for a while, then you start having questions, like "whats my thac0 again?", "do i roll low or high for proficiencies?", "how much of a negative bonus do i subtract(or add) if i get speared while wearing chainmail?" and other bollocks.

as for some breakage, fighters with daggers wearing item that granted silence and that had darkness cast upon it, would often finish the combat in one round, maybe 2. still, that system sucked like an industrial vacuum.

[tzor]

What 2E are we talking about? 2.0? 2+Kits 2+PO?

The only thing I seem to recall is open ended wish abuse. 2E was known as the age of the wish lawyers with the ability to word a wish so that the DM could have the least chance to screw you for making it.

[Koumei]

And at the same time, you got screwed no matter what you wished for if you didn't lawyer your way through it.

Apparently the first and only trick was to lie and claim that you did indeed roll 18/00 Strength.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I always heard that having high strength plus specializing in darts was a good way to deal some damage.

[cthulhu]

finding some way to get a +2 strength bonus so you could circumvent the entire 18/00 thing is col too.

[josephbt]

naah, daggers still ruled. you could dual wield them. a bit of str, a lot of dex and slaughter begins.

[Username17]

Combat min/maxing was a weird thing. Monsters didn't have Con bonuses or huge ples of hit dice. An AD&D Troll had seriously about 30 HP and regenerated only 3. Death margins were an optional rule, so weaponry was really a lot more effective than it is now. At the same time, the theoretical maximum AC was 30 (-10 then was the same as AC 30 today), and bonus attacks weren't penalized - so you could keep dishing out level appropriate (and beyond) damage your whole life unless you DM threw out something stupid like a 2nd Edition AD&D Dragon (which arbitrarily got d12 hit dice while everything else got d8s, and more hit dice than the gods, and blah blah blah).

Indeed, Strength scaled really super weird. Strength 18 had that weird numeric scale attached, but Strength 19 skipped all that and went straight to "Hill Giant Strength" - and provided appropriate bonuses (+7 to damage I believe). Strength 20 was Stone Giant strength, Strength 21 was for Frost Giants, Strength 22 was for Fire Giants, Strength 23 for Cloud Giants, and strength 24 was for Storm Giants. And Girdles of Giant Strength simple gave you the strength of one of the giant types straight up with no fuss. It was entirely plausible to be a Halfling Thief who simply had the strength of a Cloud Giant and did appropriate damage in melee before getting "backstab" which was a damage multiplier.

You could also take your relatively huge strength damage bonuses and apply them to multiple attacks. Two Weapon Fighting didn't really have any drawbacks if you grabbed the right TWF ability, so it was just an excuse to use your strength bonus more than once. Drzzt uses two Scimitars because in AD&D days that was a munchkinly powerful thing to do. You could also take various abilities that would allow you to attack extra times with smaller weapons. Yea, the truly strong fight with a knife in each hand or a bunch of darts in a sack.

Truly this was the era of using damage bonuses instead of weapon damages. The joke about fighting with a teddy bear on a stick came from 1st edition AD&D.

----

But if you really want to break the game and the DM's mind, you still go magic user. Back then Fireball did real damage. And everything was expected to take place indoors. And because the swordsmen were so good at killing an opponent at the high end that encounters were expected to always be with large groups of enemies. You really didn't have to do anything weird. Just throwing a Fireball from time to time made you the rock star.

But of course, you could push the cheese envelope hardcore. Spells like enlarge (Reversible) could be cast on anything to make them grow or shrink. Shrink a door and step over it through the now mostly empty doorway. Grow a falling boulder and crush the enemy castle. Not bad for a first level spell. The reversed spells were generally not well thought out. My favorite reversible spell was "Abjure" - a 4th level version of Banishment. The reversed verion, Conjure brought an outsider of your choice to your presence. I'm not even kidding.

-Username17

[tzor]

Magic item combinations were also quite popular. In the campaign I ran, the Ranger Destruction had the full set needed for his name, belt of giant strength, gauntlets of ogre strength and the hammer of thunderbolts. (His co-adventurer Death had a vorpal sword and a ring of regeneration.)

The ability of multiple attacks per round for arrows and darts (3 per round for darts IIRC) combined with the strength bonus for darts at short distance made them interesting, but most of the high strength characters still used two handed weapons which had only one attack but which did more damage. Note also I think darts were far less effective against large creatures than medium creatures while the two handers were better at large creatures. Then again, it was easier to get magic swords and axes than magic darts.

Of course 1st Edition AD&D is a myth of sorts, I don't think anyone played the game as is out of the box. At R.P.I. characters easily crossed campaigns and DMs. I had to deal with teeth of spell storing and M16's of Sharpness. I never had to deal with the Rune Broom (think of a combination of magic items that looked oddly like a bizzare X wing fighter). Or with Blue Blood; a potion that literally added bonus HP to a character which were used first. The most famous wizard warrior of R.P.I., the great Andorion always used Blue Blood. The old saying was, "When Andorion bleeds red, the party is as good as dead."

The classic dawings of Andorion always had mule behind him with two kegs of blue blood ... and a hose leading to his helmit.

Of course magic armor limits was based off of metal type, with adamentine being the best armor from Core. Naturally being an inexperienced DM I wrote up and sent darleks after D&D who promptly defeated them and turned their casings into uber armor.

Trust me I know all about Monty Haul DMs, I used to be one, but that was long ago.

[Koumei]

Some of those tricks just sound funny. Heck, the ones that aren't so much "I win" abilities should be nailed onto the Mage of the Lost Traditions. You know, the one who can randomly cast spells AD&D-style. You would know the one I'm talking about, either you or K made it.

And apparently Clerics sucked back then, until one of the FR books gave them amazing stuff that made them more like the Clerics we get today.

[tzor]

I won't say the 1E cleric sucked, only that they were as boring as hell. Healing machines at best, unable to even use a decent sword. (No slashing or piercing weapons were allowed.) They still made great characters for new players since they could take a lot of damage, had a few "wow" spells and in a pinch could hit with a mace.

The cleric was one of the few classes who could call "time out" in the middle of combat ... it was called the sanctuary spell.

[RandomCasualty]

1188576540[/unixtime]] It was entirely plausible to be a Halfling Thief who simply had the strength of a Cloud Giant and did appropriate damage in melee before getting "backstab" which was a damage multiplier.

thieves kind of sucked though if I remember right...

I mean, your backstab only worked if you got surprise on the guy and once combat was started it was useless. It didn't work like sneak attack does now.

[tzor]

No, backstab was exactly that. You needed to find a victim's back. Remember 1E had facing rules so it was easy to get to a victim's back.

Unfortunately my 1E AD&D PBH is somewhere in my computer room. Hopefully I should have the time to clean the room this long weekend, because some of the plastic milk cartons are collapsing from the weight. Until then I can only officially comment on 1E DMG material because that is what I can grab.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Fighter + Storm Giant Belt + Gaunlets of Ogre Power + Hammer of Thunderbolts (all of which are non-artifact) can make quick work of a dungeon. You figure that this level-independent character can kill anything he hits.

Storm Giant Belt is VASTLY underpriced. That alone can break a campaign. We fought on a castle wall once, the character simply ripped off a crenelation and threw it at any attacker.

other worthy things of note:
Ring of Regeneration - you win, you cannot be killed
Illusions do REAL damage - you win
Backstab - when you get it, it kills gods.
Monks - get to add strength (see: belt of giant's strength) AND a level amount to each blow (they can also fight 2-handed... and throw 3 darts per hand per round)
And, of course, the usual wizard creativity and spell power is rewarded.

[Lago_AM3P]

I thought monks weren't allowed in AD&D...

If they were, how would you design a kick-ass martial artist on a minimal amount of money--preferrably with lots of spells?

[Koumei]

1188609770[/unixtime]]No, backstab was exactly that. You needed to find a victim's back. Remember 1E had facing rules so it was easy to get to a victim's back.

I think 2Ed might have been the one with really weird backstab rules. You know, you have to be facing the back with an ally facing their front to distract them and before combat actually started and while being stealthy and with another ally there to act as an impartial judge and declare it "stealthy" while juggling.

Or something. I really am too new to D&D to know much about pre-3rd Edition, but I've played one or two games of the varying others, and heard many people bitch about them.

[Neeek]

1188569134[/unixtime]]I always heard that having high strength plus specializing in darts was a good way to deal some damage.

This, was indeed, completely stupid.

Thrown Weapons in 2nd ed (not sure about 1st ed) used both Strength and Dex bonuses for the to hit rolls and the damage rolls. So with an 18/00 Str and a 18 Dex, you had a +7 to hit and a +6 to damage. Darts, which did like 1d3 damage IIRC, were the fastest thrown weapon in the game. The base was 3 attacks per round (by contrast, getting 2 attacks in a round was something a 7th level fighter got. If he'd specialized in the weapon he was using). Specialized fighters got 4 and an addition +1 to hit and +2 to damage. And doing 10 damage to something small was a near-certain kill.

So at first level, you could be nearly certain of eliminating any level appropriate enemy, if you had rolled well enough. Usually more than once a round.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Monks were certainly allowed. However, they got the inherent level-limitation that druids got. There can only be 4 "Grand Masters of Flowers". In order to level up, you have to find at least one of them and kick the crap out of him. Or not, and lose a level. It was something like this:
1
...
7
8 - only 4
9 - only 1
10 - only 1
you get the idea.

[MrWaeseL]

That's retarded.

[josephbt]

THe gauntlets got mentioned, the belt also, but in order to have the holy fighter trinity of ad&d you also need the vampiric sword. Half the damage you deal with it heals you. Go straight to win, do not pass go.