Pathfinder Is Still Bad

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:22 am

Speaking of SKR, the Advanced Race Guide playtest has started. The rules on display are the Race Builder rules, which are basically point-buy to make races. I don't have the energy to take them apart, so check for yourself.

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:49 am

A Man In Black wrote:Speaking of SKR, the Advanced Race Guide playtest has started. The rules on display are the Race Builder rules, which are basically point-buy to make races. I don't have the energy to take them apart, so check for yourself.

Looks pretty awful.

For example, they price out Spell Resistance (6+level) at the same cost as a +2 vs disease. ingested poison, and nausea/sickness.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:52 am

K wrote:For example, they price out Spell Resistance (6+level) at the same cost as a +2 vs disease. ingested poison, and nausea/sickness.

SR 11+level is cheaper than +2 cha or Ferocity (keep fighting at 0 HP). DR 5/cold iron is cheaper than DR 5/magic. Apparently claws are too overpowered to give to anything but "advanced" (human-shaped monster) races, but SR isn't. Being vulnerable to Raise Dead (will-negated save-or-die) is one of the six weaknesses you can take. Having hooves is an advantage, despite the fact that all it does is make you wear horseshoes instead of boots/shoes.

Goblins are apparently balanced with standard races(!) because they spend eight of their 10-point allotment on +4 to stealth and ride.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:05 am

I'm noticing you can GAIN a point (as in, this is a drawback) for getting a +4 in one score of your choice and having a -2 in one mental and physical ability score. So my race of dark elves known for being necromancers? +4 int, -2 str, -2 cha. WOO! FREE SHIT!

You can also do the inverse for a free point. So -4 str, +2 con, +2 int and go wizard? Why the hell not?

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:14 am

A Man In Black wrote:
K wrote:For example, they price out Spell Resistance (6+level) at the same cost as a +2 vs disease. ingested poison, and nausea/sickness.
SR 11+level is cheaper than +2 cha or Ferocity (keep fighting at 0 HP). DR 5/cold iron is cheaper than DR 5/magic. Apparently claws are too overpowered to give to anything but "advanced" (human-shaped monster) races, but SR isn't. Being vulnerable to Raise Dead (will-negated save-or-die) is one of the six weaknesses you can take. Having hooves is an advantage, despite the fact that all it does is make you wear horseshoes instead of boots/shoes.

Goblins are apparently balanced with standard races(!) because they spend eight of their 10-point allotment on +4 to stealth and ride.

I kind of love that you can take Lightbringer and the two Standard light-based weaknesses for a net -1 points and completely negate the weaknesses. That should be fixed in final draft unless no one points it out.

Yeh, on further review it still looks terrible. Creating an uber race by dropping the minor bonuses to a skill check you never do in exchange for real abilities is always going to be what people are going to do. I mean, Weapon Familiarity is that thing you don't care care about and it's still better than a +2 to Appraise gold and gems.

Considering both are priced at the same values as spell-likes and stuff like feats and combat abilities like being able to reroll a Ref check once a day, I think about 70% of the listed abilities will not appear in anyone's drafts of races they want to play.

"Yes, my race has spell resistance and innate magical powers that normally burn expensive material components when used by spellcasters of other races. Your people..... are slightly better at training rats?"

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:19 am

The costs are finangled to make all the core races exactly 10 "Race Points" so +2 Perception costs as much as an extra +2 Wisdom. Pretending all the core races are balanced is going to be the anchor around this book's neck.

Funniest thing about that goblin is that it gets points back for having +4/-2/-2 stats. Because, you know, a wizard with -2 Str / +4 Int / -2 Cha would be worse than the standard +2/+2/-2. (E: CapnTthePirateG beat me to it.)

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:32 am

They are also flatly wrong when they say that you can't create an Undead Standard race because it's too expensive. There are easily enough weaknesses and other minuses for the 16 point cost for the Undead type.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:37 am

This is going to be the one true book to rule the PF optimization forums. Seriously, you could make the most boss wizard race ever with 10 points. See if you guys can top this.

We start by going for the +4 int, -2 str, -2 cha option, which gives us a point.

We also make our species a humanoid (elf), this is free and opens up that elven magic bs. That and medium. So far, we have gained 1 point.

Might as well throw on slow speed. He's a damn wizard, he can use expeditious retreat if he needs to, and at 9th+ level he flies around all day and just doesn't give a shit. So now we are up by 2 points.

We take the xenophobic language array, because tongues exists. Why the fuck are you charging me points for languages I could be using for fucking damage reduction? Sigh.

Now that we have 12 points, we can put them all into advanced intelligence 3 times so our wizard race can start with a +10 intelligence bonus...wait, what the FUCK? Seriously, that's it, we're done. It doesn't matter at this point. I have seriously created a +10 intelligence race which has no level adjustment or penalties besides -2 str, -2 cha, and a 20 foot movement speed. I have just fucking won. No one is going to make this guy's save DCs. The book tells me this is balanced with the standard races. I consider myself a lenient DM, and I allow a lot, but if a player showed up to my game with this shit I would be forced to congratulate him on his audacity but firmly tell him no.

In conclusion, this book is a steaming pile of shit.

EDIT: Apparently the +10 int doesn't work because you need to get an advanced race. However, see the +18 int, +1 ECL monstrosity below (and the ECL goes away at level 5).

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:45 am

I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and SHIT a better race system than that. What the fuck? How are these people paid to write shit like this?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:50 am

Strung Nether wrote:I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and SHIT a better race system than that. What the fuck? How are these people paid to write shit like this?

Paizo

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:50 am

I've allowed an awakened giant squid change shape at will, with levels in hergian and a pet marid.

Even I wouldn't allow that +10 Int race

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:51 am

I don't think they actually had anyone in the company look this over before they released the playtest version. Seriously, I found the +10 to a score in about 5 minutes, why couldn't they?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:54 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:I don't think they actually had anyone in the company look this over before they released the playtest version. Seriously, I found the +10 to a score in about 5 minutes, why couldn't they?

Because their only goal was to make it seem like the core races were all balanced. As long as they could make a system that could prove that they didn't care about anything else. Rather than accepting "You know, maybe some of our races ARE too strong/weak, and we should have started with a system like this then built our races with it, and released the system already fully tested later"

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:57 am

But it doesn't. We tore it apart in like 5 minutes. Not even the most die-hard real roleplayer is going to take 4 pts worth of skill bonuses when he could grab a higher primary stat or identify for the same amount.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:00 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:But it doesn't. We tore it apart in like 5 minutes. Not even the most die-hard real roleplayer is going to take 4 pts worth of skill bonuses when he could grab a higher primary stat or identify for the same amount.

And that is where you are wrong. I personally know at least two people who would do that.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:01 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:But it doesn't. We tore it apart in like 5 minutes. Not even the most die-hard real roleplayer is going to take 4 pts worth of skill bonuses when he could grab a higher primary stat or identify for the same amount.

To clarify, I mean that they wanted a system that would let them rebuild their core races and seem balanced according to that system. Given the core races all have things like languages, or random skill bonuses nobody cares about, or minor save bonuses against niche effects, they overpriced the shit out of those options and called it a day.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:25 am

Hmm, my bad, you apparently need to start with 20 points to take the Ability Boost (i.e not core race).

Still, I bet we could break that. You are 1 level behind from levels 1-5, and that's the only drawback. So I guess throw in 3 more boosts, K's lightbringer combo, and increase the drawback to paragon weakness (physical) for a 4th boost, and you get +18 int, -2 str -2 dex -2 con, +1 CL with light spells, can't be blinded or dazzled by bright light, and you move at 20 feet. Blows the drow noble out of the water, and that guy apparently 22 RP.

koz · Post by **koz** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:47 am

How many bonus feats could you net with these rules? Thinking of making a 'super human' to see what madness can arise.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:51 am

BUT THE DM WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN SO IT DOESN'T MATTER

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:32 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Hmm, my bad, you apparently need to start with 20 points to take the Ability Boost (i.e not core race).

Still, I bet we could break that. You are 1 level behind from levels 1-5, and that's the only drawback. So I guess throw in 3 more boosts, K's lightbringer combo, and increase the drawback to paragon weakness (physical) for a 4th boost, and you get +18 int, -2 str -2 dex -2 con, +1 CL with light spells, can't be blinded or dazzled by bright light, and you move at 20 feet. Blows the drow noble out of the water, and that guy apparently 22 RP.

Sadly, you can't pick more than four times in one category for an Advanced race, so the max Int bonus for an Advanced Intelligence is +8 with a base +4 from Paragon or Greater Paragon, for a total of +12 Int.

I noticed that issue when I was figuring out the max nattie armor you can get, having been entirely bored by the ease of breaking ability scores.

I was interested in the fact that you could create a race with a +2 CL to scorching ray. Combine that with Spell Specialization and when you first get the spell at 3rd it's at +4 CL and thus has an extra ray... so cheers for no save 8d6 damage at 3rd level!

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:40 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:How many bonus feats could you net with these rules? Thinking of making a 'super human' to see what madness can arise.

As a Standard race, you could only get Skill Focus and a regular free feat, but as an Advanced you could add Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative for a total of four.

Sadly, it doesn't say that you can take the free feat multiple times like other abilities you can take multiple times.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:51 am

huh. I can't even see what this subsystem is for. It doesn't generate balanced races since costs are totally random (eg: for 1 RP you have +3 to a skill, or for 2 RP you have +2 to a skill).

You simply add random numbers for the sake of adding numbers, and at the end you obtain a new number, because that's what you get when you do an addition.

----
On the Paizo's board, they create existing races using this system (they have created the gnoll, the vegepigmy, etc). It doesn't help me to understand what this system is for: existing races already exist.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:00 am

They just had no idea how to handle it, so just put some random stuff together that worked as if the 'core' races are perfectly balanced.
And are now hoping that people will do all the actual design work for them.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:12 am

I think it important to note that SKR basically did something very similar and equally stupid with his Feat Point System. We discussed it before on this board.

SKR seems to really like breaking down lists of choices into longer lists of incomprehensibly assigned point totals in order to eat up word count and look like he is working. He does this kind of shit a lot. He produces long lists of apparently randomly assigned point totals to write next to selections to try to prove... something. I don't know. I think he's like one of those people who sees little numbers everywhere that point to a giant conspiracy to spy on him through his teeth.

-Username17

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:14 am

Hum.

I think I understand.

Since you pay your race with RP, you have now a rule to say "my race is 63% more Roleplay than yours !"