Poverty (Stop posting here Shadzar)

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:41 pm

I think this is more of an example of agonism and the human desire to not back down from a point. Shad can't admit he's wrong, so he keeps trying to back his point up. When those points turn out to be unfounded bullshit, he backs them up.

And it turns into this endless cycle of stupidity. I'm sure shadzar doesn't enjoy trying to save his ass (poorly) either. So we should pretend he never said this, and eventually he'll come around to our side once he realizes we're not trying to antagonize him.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:42 pm

Shadow Balls wrote:sucking on a barrel of cocks

my sig has the first thing you should learn after your first post...but as you are likely new to forums in general and wouldn't know what a sig is, allow me to help you by providing the relevant portion of it here.

Play the game, not the rules.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:43 pm

2e DMG wrote: It is reasonable to assume that if the player characters aren't giving up their goods, neither are any non-player characters. And if adventurers aren't selling their finds, then there isn't enough trade in magical items to sustain such a business.
Even if the characters do occasionally sell a magical item, setting up a magic shop is not a good idea. Where is the sense of adventure in going into a store and buying a sword +1? Haggling over the price of a wand? Player characters should feel like adventurers, not merchants or greengrocers.
Consider this as well: If a wizard or priest can buy any item he needs, why should he waste time attempting to make the item himself? Magical item research is an important role-playing element in the game, and opening a magic emporium kills it. There is a far different sense of pride on the player's part when using a wand his character has made, or found after perilous adventure, as opposed to one he just bought.
Finally, buying and trading magic presumes a large number of magical items in the society. This lessens the DM's control over the whole business. Logically-minded players will point out the inconsistency of a well-stocked magic shop in a campaign otherwise sparse in such rewards.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Wow this must be the worst gaming system ever written. I mean seriously, if they don't sell loot themselves they shouldn't be able to buy any and if they do sell it, then well fuck them.

And yeah, I'm sure that the high level cleric is really going to care that he created the wand of cure light wounds instead of buying it.

And this situation that makes no sense whatsoever is done just so the dm can have more control over the game? That is pretty stupid, and shitty reason.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:53 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:I think this is more of an example of agonism and the human desire to not back down from a point. Shad can't admit he's wrong, so he keeps trying to back his point up. When those points turn out to be unfounded bullshit, he backs them up.

And it turns into this endless cycle of stupidity. I'm sure shadzar doesn't enjoy trying to save his ass (poorly) either. So we should pretend he never said this, and eventually he'll come around to our side once he realizes we're not trying to antagonize him.

so you think for some reason WBL ONLY equates to magic items conferring combat power to a character?

take a character with VoP, and one without and compare the numbers side by side of the same level.

make NEITHER of them have magic items, and see which fairs better.

common sense would tell you that the VoP character would as it was built for the purpose of giving advantage to being under poverty.

VoP fails if VoP is worse than a character with no magic items, IF your criteria is ONLY combat prowess. VoP offers more than jsut combat abilities. i dont know what % because i cant find that wiki to look it up on again.

people claiming this shit that 100% of WBL was meant to be magic weapons is where i want to see it in writing form the books.

a new 13th-level character should have 110,000 gp in gear.

No ~ 7th-level characters, ~ will ~ possess}es{ a magic item that costs 20,000 gp.

these two dont tell me what the WBL for a 7th level character is, only that 13th should have 110kgp in GEAR, and 7th wont own a magic item of 20k value.

here is a funny part that came befor that bit about 7th level.

The baseline campaign for the D&D game uses this “wealth by
level” guideline as a basis for balance in adventures.

adventures... not balance in "combat".

so what fucking percentage of the WBL is the game saying each character has in weapons/armor? is just fucking says wealth...not what individual percentage of wealth anything is, save for someone mentioned 10% over to accommodate expenses.

yet the books say NOTHING on this, but all those sages of 3rd claims that WBL is 100% magic weapons and armor. funny that.

so what fucking % of WBL does the book say is specifically for weapons and armor?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:56 pm

ishy wrote:
2e DMG wrote: It is reasonable to assume that if the player characters aren't giving up their goods, neither are any non-player characters. And if adventurers aren't selling their finds, then there isn't enough trade in magical items to sustain such a business.
Even if the characters do occasionally sell a magical item, setting up a magic shop is not a good idea. Where is the sense of adventure in going into a store and buying a sword +1? Haggling over the price of a wand? Player characters should feel like adventurers, not merchants or greengrocers.
Consider this as well: If a wizard or priest can buy any item he needs, why should he waste time attempting to make the item himself? Magical item research is an important role-playing element in the game, and opening a magic emporium kills it. There is a far different sense of pride on the player's part when using a wand his character has made, or found after perilous adventure, as opposed to one he just bought.
Finally, buying and trading magic presumes a large number of magical items in the society. This lessens the DM's control over the whole business. Logically-minded players will point out the inconsistency of a well-stocked magic shop in a campaign otherwise sparse in such rewards.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.
Wow this must be the worst gaming system ever written. I mean seriously, if they don't sell loot themselves they shouldn't be able to buy any and if they do sell it, then well fuck them.

And yeah, I'm sure that the high level cleric is really going to care that he created the wand of cure light wounds instead of buying it.

And this situation that makes no sense whatsoever is done just so the dm can have more control over the game? That is pretty stupid, and shitty reason.

oh yes, the DM controlling the NPC merchants is totally a bad thing.

you fail at reading.

it poses the question, if the PCs dont sell their loot, then why would anyone else? if nobody is selling their loot, then where would the PCs be able to find some to buy? the answer is NOWHERE.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:01 pm

shadzar wrote:
Shadow Balls wrote:sucking on a barrel of cocks
my sig has the first thing you should learn after your first post...but as you are likely new to forums in general and wouldn't know what a sig is, allow me to help you by providing the relevant portion of it here.

Play the game, not the rules.

Your troleplayer nonsense is as irrelevant now as it is ever. The rules are the game, and as soon as you stop playing Calvinball you might be worthy, but until then get off my sack.

PS: Attempting to mock someone for being new to forums is considerably more effective when you have not shoved your shift key up your ass in some manner of juvenile protest.

You will attempt to respond to this with more of your word salad, but I'm a meat and potatoes kinda guy. Substance or get the fuck out.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:11 pm

Did Shadzar de-rail yet another thread with some random statement making little to no sense? I mean, we were talking about Vow of Poverty earlier, right?

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:13 pm

shadzar wrote:take a character with VoP, and one without and compare the numbers side by side of the same level.

make NEITHER of them have magic items, and see which fairs better.

common sense would tell you that the VoP character would as it was built for the purpose of giving advantage to being under poverty.

VoP fails if VoP is worse than a character with no magic items, IF your criteria is ONLY combat prowess. VoP offers more than jsut combat abilities. i dont know what % because i cant find that wiki to look it up on again.

No Shad. I'm sorry to say but that's not it at all. VoP fails if the VoP character is worse than a character WITH magic items, because VoP is supposed to make characters with no magic items able to keep up with characters with magic items. Because that's the baseline. Characters with magic items, the game is designed around that concept. Saying something is better than something unreasonably worse than what's normal doesn't mean shit.

We're still taking about VoP, just about why it needs reform.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:16 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:Did Shadzar de-rail yet another thread with some random statement making little to no sense? I mean, we were talking about Vow of Poverty earlier, right?

How to make Vow of Poverty balanced - You get x bonuses, where x is whatever you could get with standard WBL. They come from you, not your items. You also do not have to spend any resources for a fluff change to abilities that you already have.

Anything else is either going to be markedly inferior, so horrifically inferior that anyone dumb enough to take them makes SKR here look like a Real Man of Genius (tm), or will simply be a horrible waste of development time and effort.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:50 pm

darkmaster wrote:
shadzar wrote:take a character with VoP, and one without and compare the numbers side by side of the same level.

make NEITHER of them have magic items, and see which fairs better.

common sense would tell you that the VoP character would as it was built for the purpose of giving advantage to being under poverty.

VoP fails if VoP is worse than a character with no magic items, IF your criteria is ONLY combat prowess. VoP offers more than jsut combat abilities. i dont know what % because i cant find that wiki to look it up on again.
No Shad. I'm sorry to say but that's not it at all. VoP fails if the VoP character is worse than a character WITH magic items, because VoP is supposed to make characters with no magic items able to keep up with characters with magic items. Because that's the baseline. Characters with magic items, the game is designed around that concept. Saying something is better than something unreasonably worse than what's normal doesn't mean shit.

We're still taking about VoP, just about why it needs reform.

the problem is we dont really know how much of WBL is supposed to be magic items and how much is supposed to be other.

if your game assumes that WBL does ONLY counts 10% towards magic weapons/armor, is VoP still that weak?

if your game assumes WBL to be 100% magic weapons/armor, then of course VoP would be underpowered in comparison.

so what actual percentage of WBL does the book say should be magic weapons and armor; and what percentage is other magic items, and what percentage is is mundane gear?

once you know those percentages then you can see where the baseline is for 3rd in comparison to VoP, because that would tell you that an equal amount of magic weapons/armor is giving the same bonuses as VoP.

THEN you know what to work with to adjust VoP based on the percentage YOU use of WBL for magic weapons and armor.

is VoP is equal to someone using 20% of their WBL on magic weapons and armor, then someone using 100% of WBL on magic weapons and armor will look way overpowered. but then you know the gap because that 100% users has 5 times the amount of bonuses, so can THEN adjust VoP accordingly.

it will ahve to be someone with the books, to figure out the %WBL of the bonuses the VoP character has, and then make a character with the same %WBL of magic weapons and armor and see if they do compare side by side.

once you have that baseline, you can easily figure out the rest.

that is why several times i have asked what percentage of WBL does the game say is magic weapons and armor? if it doesnt and you just decide, then EACH game will have to independently adjust VoP depending on the GROUP and how much of its WBL is used on magic weapons and armor.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:14 pm

that is why several times i have asked what percentage of WBL does the game say is magic weapons and armor? if it doesnt and you just decide, then EACH game will have to independently adjust VoP depending on the GROUP and how much of its WBL is used on magic weapons and armor.

It doesn't. But that doesn't actually change how little VoP is worth. If it doesn't give the equivalent combat bonuses, then it should give random other bonuses you can get with magic items instead. If VoP gave you the ability to store your shit in a pocket dimension, that'd be fine. If VoP gave you the ability to Fly and Teleport, or gave you the ability to summon shit, rather than an extra +1 to hit, that'd be fine. It'd actually be better than just making the numbers bigger.

The problem is that VoP doesn't do any of that. This is why one of my suggestions up thread was that the bonus feats from VoP should be able to be spent on things you actually care about, to make up the rest of the wealth discrepency with extra effects besides just bigger numbers.

Regardless of how the wealth gets spent, the point remains that VoP should give you at LEAST the normal WBL worth of special benefits.

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:18 pm

Vow of Poverty conceptually is basically a party buff ability. The base idea should be that you don't need to take a share of the treasure anymore, but your companions now get your share, so they get more powerful.

The feat should give you some bonuses to stay relatively competitive, but should still be worse than people who took the items. It's similar to playing a character who uses his actions tossing haste and heroism on people, only instead of burning actions so your companions can shine more, you're accepting a lack of equipment.

A VoP character won't really be equal with a normal one (and shouldn't be) because part of his gimmick is giving his companions more stuff. It's a selfless gimmick and not for everybody, but that's about the best you can do in a treasure accumulation game.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:25 pm

Swordslinger wrote:Vow of Poverty conceptually is basically a party buff ability. The base idea should be that you don't need to take a share of the treasure anymore, but your companions now get your share, so they get more powerful.

The feat should give you some bonuses to stay relatively competitive, but should still be worse than people who took the items. It's similar to playing a character who uses his actions tossing haste and heroism on people, only instead of burning actions so your companions can shine more, you're accepting a lack of equipment.

A VoP character won't really be equal with a normal one (and shouldn't be) because part of his gimmick is giving his companions more stuff. It's a selfless gimmick and not for everybody, but that's about the best you can do in a treasure accumulation game.

Except the VoP character must donate his share of the treasure to the church/charity/whatever...

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:31 pm

Swordslinger wrote:A VoP character won't really be equal with a normal one (and shouldn't be) because part of his gimmick is giving his companions more stuff. It's a selfless gimmick and not for everybody, but that's about the best you can do in a treasure accumulation game.

exactly!

Seerow wrote:
that is why several times i have asked what percentage of WBL does the game say is magic weapons and armor? if it doesnt and you just decide, then EACH game will have to independently adjust VoP depending on the GROUP and how much of its WBL is used on magic weapons and armor.
It doesn't. But that doesn't actually change how little VoP is worth. If it doesn't give the equivalent combat bonuses, then it should give random other bonuses you can get with magic items instead. If VoP gave you the ability to store your shit in a pocket dimension, that'd be fine. If VoP gave you the ability to Fly and Teleport, or gave you the ability to summon shit, rather than an extra +1 to hit, that'd be fine. It'd actually be better than just making the numbers bigger.

The problem is that VoP doesn't do any of that. This is why one of my suggestions up thread was that the bonus feats from VoP should be able to be spent on things you actually care about, to make up the rest of the wealth discrepency with extra effects besides just bigger numbers.

Regardless of how the wealth gets spent, the point remains that VoP should give you at LEAST the normal WBL worth of special benefits.

you still are considering WBL as personal...but think about it... the party still gets the same wealth, and it CAN be shared with them the shared not taken by the VoP character. the written way of giving everything to the poor, is ONE way that self chosen poverty CAN work, but the simplest is the rest get the share of loot, to maintain balanace between the PARTY and the ENCOUNTER.

@Swordslinger: no the VoP character isnt trying to be competitive, THAT is the problem with how people view the characters. the PARTY should be competitive over the ENCOUNTER.
________
5 player party, with a VoP character. lets say level 10.

this party faces a level 10 encounter. the VoP character CHOSE to take VoP, and in doing so the other 4 characters have more WBL than normal, but it does NOT have to change the encounter matrix to adjust for the better gear of those 4.

the party is still level 10 since ALL classes advance at the same XP rate. the encounter faced should be level appropriate which would be level 10. that is where the balance lies, not within the individual characters. you have 4 over-balanced characters and one under balanced, but for the 5 characters the (total wealth/number in party)=WBL...so the party has the proper WBL for a level 10 party.

so YES the VoP character chose to be a bit weakened in return for the PARTY to have an overall better chance. even if the VoP character donates half his earnings to the church, the other half split amongst those 4 other characters in the party, just got stronger.

self-sacrifice is something MANY people playing D&D these days just dont understand.....

Seerow wrote:have to doante

no you dont, that is just ONE suggestion.

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure!

it doesnt say CAN'T, or MAY NOT, or MUST NOT; just that the rest of the party getting the VoP share isnt the only way it can be done. it is giving roleplaying advice, not mechanics rulings.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:35 pm

you still are considering WBL as personal...but think about it... the party still gets the same wealth, and it CAN be shared with them the shared not taken by the VoP character. the written way of giving everything to the poor, is ONE way that self chosen poverty CAN work, but the simplest is the rest get the share of loot, to maintain balanace between the PARTY and the ENCOUNTER.

Vow of Poverty explicitly requires you to take your share of the loot and give it away. It isn't an option. It is the requirement of the damn vow.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:35 pm

You don't actually read much of what's posted here, do you?

Alright, lets run things down. All the things a character is likely to carry at at mid levels. Weapons: magic, Armor: magic, shield: magic, accessories: magic, potions: magic, wands: magic, rope: not magic, 10 ft pole: not magic, bed roll: not magic, mount: maybe not magic but probably is, that's all I've got off the top of my head, but the point is everything you're going to want or need to replace on a regular basis is magical, and that's why you want to replace it, to get better shit. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say 90-100% of your WBL is going to be spent on magic items.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:35 pm

A little pissed Shad made me actually log in to read the thread with his nonsense. Its clear he hasn't read any of the 3.5 books, let alone the rules in question. He has no interest in a legit conversation, and is just throwing statements around because he has a weird hate for the den. (I had to log in because that activates my ignore list of 1 poster) Actually generally annoyed I have to log in to read at all now-a-days.

VOP- You pay A in order to give up X to get Y. Y is always less than X. VOP is always a bad idea. end of debate.

Should a VOP character be viable, I think so. Do the rules need a rewrite, probably. Honestly, it should probably look like 4e's inherant bonus alternative rule. "You just get your +X's to everything at the levels you should, and who cares if you have a magic item". Then the DM throws in a few random magic items and any +Xs they may provide are not stacked with the existing ones.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:37 pm

Seerow wrote:
you still are considering WBL as personal...but think about it... the party still gets the same wealth, and it CAN be shared with them the shared not taken by the VoP character. the written way of giving everything to the poor, is ONE way that self chosen poverty CAN work, but the simplest is the rest get the share of loot, to maintain balanace between the PARTY and the ENCOUNTER.
Vow of Poverty explicitly requires you to take your share of the loot and give it away. It isn't an option. It is the requirement of the damn vow.

no fucking isnt! that is just ONE suggestion.

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure!

it doesnt say CAN'T, or MAY NOT, or MUST NOT; just that the rest of the party getting the VoP share isnt the only way it can be done. it is giving roleplaying advice, not mechanics rulings.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 pm

shadzar wrote:
oh yes, the DM controlling the NPC merchants is totally a bad thing.

you fail at reading.

it poses the question, if the PCs dont sell their loot, then why would anyone else? if nobody is selling their loot, then where would the PCs be able to find some to buy? the answer is NOWHERE.

Uhmmm seeing as that is not what I actually said, it is you who fails at reading.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:42 pm

shadzar wrote:
Seerow wrote:
you still are considering WBL as personal...but think about it... the party still gets the same wealth, and it CAN be shared with them the shared not taken by the VoP character. the written way of giving everything to the poor, is ONE way that self chosen poverty CAN work, but the simplest is the rest get the share of loot, to maintain balanace between the PARTY and the ENCOUNTER.
Vow of Poverty explicitly requires you to take your share of the loot and give it away. It isn't an option. It is the requirement of the damn vow.
no fucking isnt! that is just ONE suggestion.

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure!
it doesnt say CAN'T, or MAY NOT, or MUST NOT; just that the rest of the party getting the VoP share isnt the only way it can be done. it is giving roleplaying advice, not mechanics rulings.

Try quoting the rest of the passage:

An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as as she is in self denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy....

There's your must. They MUST be charitable to maintain their vow. Giving shit away to party members doesn't count, that's supporting your party's greed, not serving actual good. Which I'll remind you as a goddamn exalted character you will be serving to the letter, or you lose all the benefits of your vow, still have no money, and be out two feats besides.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:49 pm

darkmaster wrote:You don't actually read much of what's posted here, do you?

Alright, lets run things down. All the things a character is likely to carry at at mid levels. Weapons: magic, Armor: magic, shield: magic, accessories: magic, potions: magic, wands: magic, rope: not magic, 10 ft pole: not magic, bed roll: not magic, mount: maybe not magic but probably is, that's all I've got off the top of my head, but the point is everything you're going to want or need to replace on a regular basis is magical, and that's why you want to replace it, to get better shit. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say 90-100% of your WBL is going to be spent on magic items.

YOU chose this, or the game states that you should have 90% of WBL as magic items?

you are trying to say because YOU do it this way, and so do many others, that the game was designed around doing it this way, and because you found something that doesnt agree with your way of playing, it was designed wrong.

did you ever think your way is NOT the way the game was designed, and an extremity, though not an outlier, if the reason you are seeing a problem with other portions of design?

you are assuming something the game doesnt claim.

WHY THE FUCK AM I HERE HAVING TO DEFEND FUCKING TRASH LIKE 3RD EDITION FROM THE FUCKING MUNCHKINS?

there needs to be a baseline somewhere in the game. monsters cannot provide it because they use different rules than the PCs do, even though they have relative levels by ECL and CR.

so VoP offers a chance to FIND the baseline of how much magic weapons and armor the game can take to being balanced across classes and PCs.

If you say the VoP should be equal, you find the percentage of WBL that it would have to a same level counterpart without VoP and with magic items, and there you go.

Weaken the VoP to make it more of a self-sacrifice, gimping the VoP character, by increasing the percentage of WBL then non-VoP character has in magic weapons and magic armor.

when you have that baseline, you can then tweak VoP to offer more of what you want, but again i claim that playstyles using 100% WBL for magic weapons and armor, are the problems with their assumptions, rather than the design; and THAT id where VoP is seen to be underpowered.

until someone provides me with some concrete numbers on what %WBL a VoP character has in power equal to that of similar magic items, then i see no way to state it isnt designed properly.

the claim was made VoP was underpowered, and i still ask for PROOF of that claim. show me some numbers!

Swordslinger · Post by **Swordslinger** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:54 pm

Seerow wrote: Except the VoP character must donate his share of the treasure to the church/charity/whatever...

Yeah that part of it I consider kind of stupid, since inevitably, you'd be trying to make his share as small as possible anyway, so you might as well just say the guy doesn't take wealth at all.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:59 pm

Seerow wrote:Try quoting the rest of the passage:

An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as as she is in self denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy....
There's your must. They MUST be charitable to maintain their vow. Giving shit away to party members doesn't count, that's supporting your party's greed, not serving actual good. Which I'll remind you as a goddamn exalted character you will be serving to the letter, or you lose all the benefits of your vow, still have no money, and be out two feats besides.

ok you try reading it yourself.

The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof)

you dont have profits until AFTER the adventure is over. expenses come BEFORE profits can be determined. how much did the wizard expend to cast spells? how much does each other party member contribute to replacing those materials used by said wizard to cast those spells?

those spell components being replaced are NOT profits, but COSTS.

the VoP character dying in the dungeon because he gave all the last loost BEFORE expenses were taken out, means he isnt likely going to give ANYTHING to any charity this time is he?

you seem to be thinking that each individual gets an equal share and has to pay their own expenses, but that is only ONE playstyle option.

ever heard of a party pool?

do you think a VoP character would not stay int he inn with the rest of the party since they dont have any money? the VoP character somehow doesnt board the ship because they cannot pay the fare because they have no money?

i really wonder is that the only way people think to play? hey there is 500 GP in treasure and 5 of us so we all get 100gp.

you divide the profits AFTER costs have been paid and compensated for.

like i said i dont know how much, but that will vary, but only a fool would be a monetary burden on the party, and onyl a fool party would have them, so there much be something going on that the other party members get SOME of the money from the VoP character, unless he is just an NPC seeking guards while traveling.

so the VoP character has to have money for expenses, just like in the real world a non-profit organization must still pay minimum wage AT LEAST to its employees, and a wage to the owner.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:07 am

Shadzar, you may stop posting in this thread now, you're obviously not interested in adding anything so just get out.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:10 am

Anywho, if anyone else has any more ideas than I'd be glad to hear them.