Poverty (Stop posting here Shadzar)

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:05 am

Modular benefits that can be redistributed by praying/chanting/fasting.

Think of it like preparing spells for the day, only instead you're distributing your various 'blessings.'

If you have read Magic of Incarnum, it may provide some ideas.

big problem is not making the feature of Vow's equivelant to a character class in it's own right...but also keeping it strong enough to warrent investing in in the first place.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:09 am

My idea was to actually build VoP into a character class, the fluff, not the feat, and then make the class powerful enough to cover the loss of magic items and be a useable class.

But I find the modular blessings idea interesting.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:13 am

Oh, thank you thank you darkmaster.

All right, anyways. I was bouncing around the idea that VoP could be a prestige class, with "Vow of X" as a feat pre-req perhaps. It would be nice to see level 1 granting up to 3 abilities that you could get bonuses on, and then level 2 would introduce 3 more, etc. Every level would give you a scaling number of "Poverty Points" (or something entertaining like that) that you could allocate to the different bonuses after an hour of prayer/chanting/fasting as Winnah said.

Since the idea behind it is that you don't use items, you probably need to include something about taking your share of the wealth away from the party and donating it to charity (to wealth inflating the rest of the party), and then make the prestige class provide even more benefit than normal class levels would.

Post by **fbmf** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:15 am

Nothing to see here. Move along.
[/TGFBS]

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:15 am

Actually, I was going to edit in making it a character class, such as Ascetic, but you beat me to it.

The difficulty would be multiclassing, so you may want to include some options (feats) that allow certain exceptions to the Ascetic code of conduct when appropriate.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:24 am

This is true, but you'd have to think of a way to go about it without compromising the fluff.

Thoughts?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:33 am

The really simple solution for VoP is to let the player sacrifice shit to his god but retain its bonuses.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:45 am

First thing that comes to mind is the Grey Guard prestige class.

A Paladin oriented prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. Capstone ability is that they can break their Code of Conduct and not lose class features, providing their actions were in the cause of Goodness and Justice and the player can make puppy eyes at the GM.

Technically you can 'break' VoP with Ghey Guard already, providing you can jump through hoops to get VoP as a class feature (bonus feats).

With that in mind, any character option to expand the utility of a multiclass Poverty character should expand their code of conduct. So a Militant feat or prestige class, for example, should grant an exception that allows the use of weapons and armour.

It can be fluffed easily enough as being property of the Church, Order or Deity. Simply put a limitation on the amount of gear that is allowed to be carried at any time, such as One suit of armour and one melee weapon.

You could possibly even add in some Kensai or OA samurai type benefit that allows the VoP to empower the selected suit of armour or weapon. If a modular system is being Used to represent Sacred Vows, then this could mean sacrificing other options to empower your gear.

As for combining a spellcaster with this sort of class option, I think that looking at the Book of Exalted Deeds would provide some thematic inspiration. Apostle of Peace and Celestial Mystic come to mind.

Just a few thoughts.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:29 am

I think that making VoP work requires answering the question, "why do you want to play a character who takes a vow of poverty?"

If it's just, "I don't want to be dependent on magic items," then the answer is something like Incarnum, where you get power equivalent to items from yourself, and you can just give the loot to the other PCs.

If you want to feel virtuous... elaborate

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:45 am

If you want to play a character with Vow of Peace, just run a Beguiler. Crazy good spellcasting, with the "drawback" that your spells mostly can't kill people. And the Vow gives you a DC bonus or something, probably? I can't be bothered to actually go look it up, so whatever. Here's your battle plan:

1) neutralize enemies with illusions, color spray, sleep, etc.
2) ...yeah, that's exactly what you would do anyway. Only now you get bonuses of some kind because it's "roleplaying." Score!

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:10 am

here's what we do to stop this whole thing

1. vow of poverty: we fix the RNG and make it so that people don't need magic items to stay on the RNG. then when the paladin gives up all his money to fund an orphanage and the wizard can build a tower, nobody loses because both are primarily roleplay driven. then if the paladin decides to keep some of his wealth and retire in luxury he can do so and nothing of value was lost.

2. vow of peace: let people swear vows of peace and then implement them by placing a greater emphasis on diplomacy rather than hack 'n' slash. and then if combat does ensue, they can disable enemies rather than killing them.

3. blind characters: make a fucking feat that says YOU ARE BLIND BUT YOU HAVE NONE OF THE PENALTIES OF BEING BLIND BECAUSE YOU ARE SO AWESOME.

wait did anyone ask about that last one

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:11 am

No I don't think so.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:40 am

Ok, so looking at the VoP benefits to pm them to Shad a couple thoughts.

A lot of the bonuses and abilities are somewhat out of left field. Sustenance and Endure Elements make a certain amount of sense. Freedom of Movement does not.

So, we're going to do this.

There are three ways I can see explaining an ascetic character.

The Martial Ascetic
The Divine Ascetic
The Arcane Ascetic

Martial Ascetics forsake weaponry and armour and focus on the development of their bodies as the ultimate weapons. They're the classic shaolin monk/bear grapple warrior type. Asceticism gives them facility with their bodies, and maybe a handful of weapons that are very close range. Bonuses would apply to natural weapons and unarmoured defense. Abilities would include smites, and possibly breaking an opponent's equipment to shift battles even more in their favour, maybe some animal mimicing abilities.
Divine Ascetics forsake material comforts and worldly goods to better focus on their god and duties. The classic old guy in the woods that speaks to god, or divine knights. Asceticism has brought them their god's favour which allows them to better oppose those who would assault their god or their terrestrial charges. Bonuses would apply to resistance against attacks and effects, maybe some other combat bonuses, and the ability to see through or otherwise nullify the weapons and tactics of their traditional opponents.
Arcane Ascetics face the ascetic lifestyle to better understand and utilize magic. This likely starts out with breaking some of the rules about spell replenishment, like not needing sleep/being able to replenish spells without rest. Ultimately, they should become something that needs very little of the mundane world.

These three types give up different things. The martial ascetic belongs to a warrior culture that eschews manufactured weapons and armour, likely emphasising a Ki type energy, and thus they would be forbidden from owning weapons, armour, or combat oriented magic items. They can probably own a house, though it should be modest, and they'd probably live in the world as adventurers, and with the other warriors as an active member of the culture. The divine ascetic gives up pretty much everything, but may be allowed a single set of clothes, possibly a weapon and armour, depending on their duties and status. They definitely have the religious paraphernalia appropriate to their religion, likely a holy symbol and prayer book. Bonus points if you can find a religion where the holy symbol is a weapon, and the prayers are enscribed upon armour, you munchkin you. Basically, everything the divine ascetic needs is provided by their order, their god, or the kindness of strangers (a symbolic provision from their god).
The Arcane Ascetic tries to go without food, drink and sleep completely, along with the tools they supposedly need for their magic. So the ideal Arcane Ascetic would be a sorcerer who voluntarily goes without food or sleep. Ideally the first ability would be Eschew Materials, then Sustenance and a lack of Sleeping.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:25 am

Shadzar: How is VoP not about numbers? I mean, I'm looking at the benefits by level. It seems to be the class with the most numbers.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:44 pm

Cymic, read thread title, he's not allowed to post here anymore.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:27 pm

Cynic wrote:Shadzar: How is VoP not about numbers? I mean, I'm looking at the benefits by level. It seems to be the class with the most numbers.

Wow that's even worse than I thought.

Seriously, give the first 4 points of AC for free, because aside from the monk, you can get that 4 AC for under 100gp.

You have:
+6 AC (36,000)
+8/6/4/2 attributes (36,000/36,000/16,000/4,000/6,000(1.5x value for an extra +2 on a primary stat)
+3 deflection AC (9,000)
+3 Resistance (9,000)
+5 to hit/damage (50,000)
+2 natural armor (4,000)

Total value: 208,000 GP

Other effects:
-Sustenance (4,000 gp)
-Mind Shielding (calculated at 120,000 gp probably actually worth less since mind blank is a long duration spell)
-Greater Sustenance (18,000)
-Freedom of Movement (40,000)
-True Seeing (75,000)
-Energy Resist 15 (20,000)
-DR 10/evil (???)

Total value: 277,000

total value of both sets of stuff combined: 485,000 gp
Expected wealth at level 20: 760,000 GP
Difference: 36% less wealth than expected.

Mind you I couldn't find an accurate way to price DR10/evil, but I find it hard to imagine it being anywhere near 200k gp. Probably closer to 30-40k. There's probably a spell somewhere that grants it that you can compare to.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:35 pm

Righteous Might grants DR 9/Evil at high enough level and also does many other things. There's probably some celestial transformation thing that does it better though.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:43 pm

Shadow Balls wrote:Righteous Might grants DR 9/Evil at high enough level and also does many other things. There's probably some celestial transformation thing that does it better though.

So a CL15 item of Righteous Might, with a steep 75% discount because you're only taking the least useful part of that spell (because who uses Righteous Might for DR as opposed to the extra size with better str/con/armor bonuses than Enlarge Person?), and you have 5*15*2000*4*.25 = 75,000 GP. That still feels a little expensive, but we'll work with that.

The total value ends up being 560,000 GP. So you end up exactly 200k gp short of what you should have, or 27% short of expected wealth by level.

You could argue that 27% is made up for by the bonus feats, except the bonus feats absolutely suck and are worth less than nothing. I'm almost inclined to count them as a -20% hit against the character, between the worthless feats and the fact he must be exalted or lose his feats and vow benefits forever.

Shadow Balls · Post by **Shadow Balls** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:59 pm

Yeah, the game really overprices damage reduction. Who thought it'd be a good idea to make DR 10/Magic cost anywhere from 35,000 to 75,000 depending on how heavily the armor or shield is enchanted prior to adding "Invulnerability, except not really at all"?

That's why I said the best fix was to simply fluff whatever wealth things you have as innate abilities. That way you won't be shortchanged, or miss out on essential lateral abilities such as items that let you fly.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:56 pm

You calculated the attribute costs wrong.

A +8 to an attribute is not worth 36,000gp + 6000gp.

That would give you a +6 enhancement bonus and a +2 enhancement bonus that overlaps and does not stack, and people would make fun of you.

Calculate the difference between the +6 and the +8 as inherent bonuses from a Book.

There are also many bonus feats, and you basically can't narrow that down to a cost.

It's still terrible, but don't try to oversell how terrible it is.

Best use of VoP I've ever heard (besides Chaos Shuffle) is you make a level 20 Druid who had 760,000 gp spent on Tomes of X where X is +5 to every stat, then you take VoP afterwords (Psychic Reformation, or whatever, it's not important what trick you use).

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:58 pm

Kaelik wrote:You calculated the attribute costs wrong.

A +8 to an attribute is not worth 36,000gp + 6000gp.

That would give you a +6 enhancement bonus and a +2 enhancement bonus that overlaps and does not stack, and people would make fun of you.

Calculate the difference between the +6 and the +8 as inherent bonuses from a Book.

You can change the bonus type of something by increasing the cost 50%. So you'd have +6 enhancement and +2 sacred, or some shit. It's generally not used because it's cheesy, but it is out there.

There are also many bonus feats, and you basically can't narrow that down to a cost.

If you can show me a single exalted bonus feat that is worth any pittance in gold, that can be included in the cost. Every exalted feat is terrible, and not worth even valuing.

Best use of VoP I've ever heard (besides Chaos Shuffle) is you make a level 20 Druid who had 760,000 gp spent on Tomes of X where X is +5 to every stat, then you take VoP afterwords (Psychic Reformation, or whatever, it's not important what trick you use).

And this is why I didn't price the extra +2 as a tome.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:28 pm

Seerow wrote:You can change the bonus type of something by increasing the cost 50%. So you'd have +6 enhancement and +2 sacred, or some shit. It's generally not used because it's cheesy, but it is out there.

Then you are an idiot. Because you should have said that a +8 bonus costs either 22,000gp because you could have a +2 Sacred +2 Profane +2 enhancement +2 insight bonus items, or 30,000 because you have to make some of those bonuses 1.5 times again to put them all on the same item.

But if you had done that, people would point out that of course VoP isn't balanced based on the dumbest most obviously stupid applications of a list of guidelines that no one ever let's you use in the first place.

So I am pointing out the same fucking thing now when you tell me "But if you just assume that someone can get a +2 sacred bonus to Intelligence for 6000gp, then VoP isn't that good!"

Because you are a fucking idiot.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:58 pm

Kaelik wrote:Best use of VoP I've ever heard (besides Chaos Shuffle) is you make a level 20 Druid who had 760,000 gp spent on Tomes of X where X is +5 to every stat, then you take VoP afterwords (Psychic Reformation, or whatever, it's not important what trick you use).

Are you able to have your animal companion take VoP as well? Because that would be excessive and silly and now I want to do that.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:59 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Seerow wrote:You can change the bonus type of something by increasing the cost 50%. So you'd have +6 enhancement and +2 sacred, or some shit. It's generally not used because it's cheesy, but it is out there.
Then you are an idiot. Because you should have said that a +8 bonus costs either 22,000gp because you could have a +2 Sacred +2 Profane +2 enhancement +2 insight bonus items, or 30,000 because you have to make some of those bonuses 1.5 times again to put them all on the same item.

But if you had done that, people would point out that of course VoP isn't balanced based on the dumbest most obviously stupid applications of a list of guidelines that no one ever let's you use in the first place.

So I am pointing out the same fucking thing now when you tell me "But if you just assume that someone can get a +2 sacred bonus to Intelligence for 6000gp, then VoP isn't that good!"

Because you are a fucking idiot.

Yes, you're right I COULD go back and recalculate all the costs like that. And make VoP look even worse.

Or you can accept the only reason I broke up the +8 is so I wouldn't have to deal with the bullshit of epic item cost multipliers, because anyone who actually believes a +8 item is worth 640,000gp is a fucking moron. (if you ignore the x10 cost multiplier, I'd be fine with counting that extra +2 as worth 28,000 gp).

You yourself already pointed out how you can in fact have the +5 inherent bonuses while having a vow. Even without tomes, you can get it by casting wish. So pricing that extra +2 as an inherent bonus makes even less sense.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:41 pm

Seerow wrote:
There are also many bonus feats, and you basically can't narrow that down to a cost.

If you can show me a single exalted bonus feat that is worth any pittance in gold, that can be included in the cost. Every exalted feat is terrible, and not worth even valuing.

Touch of golden ice. At will contact poison that does 1d6 prim/2d6 sec. dex damage to evil creatures.

And you can always use 1st level diplomancer bullshit to get Pazuzu to grant you wishes too, then reform and take vop. ....after getting +5 to all stats through wish... Of course, not to invoke the fallacy I can't remember the name of, but no DM would allow that.