Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[RadiantPhoenix]

I can't wait to be told how mathematically balanced the Barbarian is to the Wizard.

-Username17

Oh fucknuggets, I remember that chapter from the BESM d20 SRD. I mean, they recognized that the classes weren't all balanced with each other, but the implementation of their, "fix", couldn't possibly be good when the bard gets 14 times more benefit out of it than the monk.

There's also, of course, the problem of skill caps by level being a variant rule, and having weapon skills. At least giving Rogues the best attack bonus makes more sense than making it the sole province of schoolgirls.

[GâtFromKI]

Well, you can make mutagen work, but you have to build to do it. You don't just put the mutagen on any old alchemist and then go tooling around in melee. It's not really a trap option as long as you go all-out to do it.

I use mutagen-alchimists as mooks. They do the trick quite well: they have only one mutagen per day but they're suppose to do only one encounter before dying, they can do bajillion-damages if the PCs act poorly, they have caster-like abilities to challenge the PCs (fly, see invisible etc), and they are easy to kill.

I don't see how you can make it playable for PCs ; you know, 1 mutagen/day, 1 000 gp for a second mutagen...

[Psychic Robot]

here's how the points system works

d6 HD = 0 points
d8 HD = 1 point
d10 HD = 2 points
d12 HD = 3 points

half BAB = 0 points
three-quarters BAB = 1 points
full BAB = 2 points

good fort save = 1 point
good will save = 1 point
good reflex save = 1 point

no spellcasting = 0 points
paladin spellcasting = 1 point
bard spellcasting = 2 points
wizard/cleric spellcasting = 3 points

2 skill points = 0 points
4 skill points = 1 point
6 skill points = 2 points
8 skill points = 3 points

trap sense = 1 point
damage reduction = 1 point
rage powers = 2 points

wizard: 4 points
barbarians: 11 points.

SEE BARBARIANS ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED

[CapnTthePirateG]

here's how the points system works

d6 HD = 0 points
d8 HD = 1 point
d10 HD = 2 points
d12 HD = 3 points

half BAB = 0 points
three-quarters BAB = 1 points
full BAB = 2 points

good fort save = 1 point
good will save = 1 point
good reflex save = 1 point

no spellcasting = 0 points
paladin spellcasting = 1 point
bard spellcasting = 2 points
wizard/cleric spellcasting = 3 points

2 skill points = 0 points
4 skill points = 1 point
6 skill points = 2 points
8 skill points = 3 points

trap sense = 1 point
damage reduction = 1 point
rage powers = 2 points

wizard: 4 points
barbarians: 11 points.

SEE BARBARIANS ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED

Please don't give SKR ideas. You know he'd do this.

[Seerow]

here's how the points system works

d6 HD = 0 points
d8 HD = 1 point
d10 HD = 2 points
d12 HD = 3 points

half BAB = 0 points
three-quarters BAB = 1 points
full BAB = 2 points

good fort save = 1 point
good will save = 1 point
good reflex save = 1 point

no spellcasting = 0 points
paladin spellcasting = 1 point
bard spellcasting = 2 points
wizard/cleric spellcasting = 3 points

2 skill points = 0 points
4 skill points = 1 point
6 skill points = 2 points
8 skill points = 3 points

trap sense = 1 point
damage reduction = 1 point
rage powers = 2 points

wizard: 4 points
barbarians: 11 points.

SEE BARBARIANS ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED

Please don't give SKR ideas. You know he'd do this.

No he wouldn't.

He'd make sure to tune the costs so that both of them wound up at 10 points

[TheFlatline]

Well, you can make mutagen work, but you have to build to do it. You don't just put the mutagen on any old alchemist and then go tooling around in melee. It's not really a trap option as long as you go all-out to do it.

That said, having a million bajillion stupid little changes you can make means it's very easy to accidentally take half the choices from one schtick, half the choices from another schtick, and end up sucking at everything.

Of course you can make it work, but it's not an efficient or even a particularly valid option. I'd rather be a 9th level barbarian than an alchemist who is progressing along mutagen lines.

Enhancing strength is stupid, because it penalizes int, which is your primary stat for... well... everything. So dex or con. Con is stupid but at least it's hurting your charisma, which nobody ever cares about unless you're a bard or a cleric turning undead. At that point, by splitting myself into potion buffing dude *and* fighter, I might as well have taken barbarian or fighter and just focused and done a lot more than the alchemist is doing.

Let's not forget that yes, you only get one mutagen a day, and yes, it still takes a round to pop, and any buffs you might want/need still take a round to drink. For mutagens to be viable, you should be able to build in buffs into them, so by 16th level you have stone skin, displacement, natural weapons, breath weapons, and shit like that. At that point it *might* be worth it simply because you're getting 5 buffs in one turn.

Otherwise it's a dead-end path option. Period. It just sounds cool to do the Jekyll/Hyde thing.

[RadiantPhoenix]

here's how the points system works

[...]

wizard: 4 points
barbarians: 11 points.

SEE BARBARIANS ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED

Fuck, even BESM isn't that stupid. They at least assign costs by spell slot.

[Koumei]

I love how in besmd20 the schoolgirl can be the best at face-stabbing.

Come on Paizo, I dare you to make a super-combative schoolgirl class.

[RadiantPhoenix]

The Rogue has better BAB than a schoolgirl and the same number of skillpoints.

EDIT: Also, Sneak Attack.

[Koumei]

I mean "Of the actual BESMd20 classes".

[RadiantPhoenix]

That depends on how many ranks of +INT you can take. Adventurer gets 5 bonus character points every level, and +2 INT costs 1 character point. If there is some limit to the number of ranks of +INT you can take, such as, say, no more than 10 ranks plus your level, then the Student probably comes out ahead, because they have a +6 base advantage.

There might be some things you can do anyway though.

Also, +1 BAB is 3 character points.

If you cap skill ranks, such as at 3+level, then parity is pretty much achieved overall.

EDIT: BESMd20 evaluated the base d20 races. At least they weren't completely wedded to the idea that the PHB races were all balanced with each other...

[Koumei]

It's less awful than most, I'll give it that. And particularly less awful than SKR's idea. I mean, humans are nominally balanced and one of the better races (worse in games that have shittacular feats, like PF, better in games that have awesome feats, like Tome). Elfs and Dwarfs tend to be more or less on par, give or take (and depending on whether you play to the race's strengths, take race-specific good stuff etc.) I guess Gnomes might be good at what they do? And apparently halflings do really awesomely at the things they're made for, so sure.

The half-elf bit is very much "oops, we fucked up there!" I mean, as good as an elf or a human? Hahaha no.

And half-orc being "really quite crap indeed" is no surprise, though I wouldn't say +4 to an ability score == 1 feat, and that 1/2 orc would be balanced by adding +10 Strength to it.

But I've seen many worse - including the PF one.

[hogarth]

SKR hasn't made them a point system to create classes yet. That could easily use up 40-50k of wordcount in completely useless ways. I can't wait to be told how mathematically balanced the Barbarian is to the Wizard.

The "Trailblazer" book beat them to it, with its brilliant analysis on how one level of sorcerer spellcasting is worth 0.7239487 CR and one level of wizard spellcasting is worth 0.4293847 CR.

[Slade]

Let's not forget that yes, you only get one mutagen a day,

Why are you repeating that phrase like it is the truth:
Did you catch SKR disease?

No, it isn't.
The only limitation: "It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert."

So you can brew another 1 hr after using the first. But you just can't brew one while other still unused.

So easily per encounter instead a daily (if you have the time to waste a hr getting another).

[TheFlatline]

Let's not forget that yes, you only get one mutagen a day,

Why are you repeating that phrase like it is the truth:
Did you catch SKR disease?

No, it isn't.
The only limitation: "It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert."

So you can brew another 1 hr after using the first. But you just can't brew one while other still unused.

So easily per encounter instead a daily (if you have the time to waste a hr getting another).

I stand corrected I apologize. You're right.

However, the party really doesn't dig standing around for an hour while you brew after each encounter. If you're in a dungeon, you essentially get a single mutagen a day.

[OgreBattle]

This is identical to Gav Thorpe's logic, who claimed the exact same thing regarding 40K and Fantasy points values being compared across lists. Something to the tune of '7 points in one list is not the same as 7 points in another list'.

You really have to compare army to army. Most units that are underpowered in warhammerF/40k are because of other choices in the list, not because of cross army comparisons.
DE spearmen are 7pts, yes, but look at the context of their army. The vast majority of their units are t3 5+ svs. Those spearmen are as durable as an Executioner TWICE its cost (or was it higher?). Cheap Spearmen are there to bulk up their core.
A lot of people still like Corsairs and Dark Riders anyways and if spearmen became pricier it could just mean they don't ever get taken compared to the other two core choices.

Also look at 40k
compare the Eldar Fire Dragon to the Veteran Guardsman with a meltagun

Fire Dragon ws4 bs4 s3 t3 w1 i5 a1 ld9 sv4+, fleet of foot. 16pts
Vet Guard ws3 bs4 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld8 sv5+ about 18pts

the vg pays MORE points for LESS stats and the same gun yet it is the vet guard that is considered overpowered in 40k because there are many other factors (transport cost, cheap bullet catchers in the squad, force org chart choice, capturing objectives, etc.).

You'll also be getting into things like what units are optimized against what. A free heavy bolter will mow down light infantry but does diddly against vehicles. If the metagame is filled with infantry hordes, the heavy bolter becomes seemingly 'overpowered', if the metagame has everyone sitting in armored vehicles, the heavy bolter, even at a cheap cost can seem useless.

points to balance army vs army, especially in a tournament environment, is gonna be pretty different from a tabletop cooperative RPG.

[Username17]

The IG Melta Gun is better than the Fire Dragon Fusion Gun for anti-vehicle work. But yeah: if an army gets cheap anti-vehicle weaponry and expensive ground troops or vice versa that could very plausibly result in an overall balanced army even though the one army had very specifically undercosted heavy weapons and the other had very demonstrably undercosted line soldiers.

The big issue with Gav Thorpe is that he had no vision for what army balance points were supposed to be and made no real attempt to balance the armies he wrote to the extant armies or to balance the stuff in the armies he wrote to other stuff in the same fucking army. When he made an Eldar Codex, the Wraithlord was off the hook insanely powerful and the Wraithguard were fucking useless. Right next to each other. Are the Eldar supposed to be good or bad at fielding monstrous creatues? Mostly they just seemed to be good at getting Str 6, AP 2 weaponry because: fuck Spess Marine players.

However, while Gav Thorpe's comment was justifiable and he is a shitty designer anyway, that really has little to do with Pathfinder and SKR's bullshit defense of his system. See: for the race design list it's all on the same list. There isn't any way that 2 points on one list could have a different value from 2 points somewhere else, because there isn't anywhere else!

-Username17

[GâtFromKI]

However, while Gav Thorpe's comment was justifiable and he is a shitty designer anyway, that really has little to do with Pathfinder and SKR's bullshit defense of his system. See: for the race design list it's all on the same list. There isn't any way that 2 points on one list could have a different value from 2 points somewhere else, because there isn't anywhere else!

That's not SKR who used this defense on the Paizo's board, that's Stephen Radney-MacFarland. There's a huge difference between the two: SKR is a poor designer and an internet troll; Stephen Radney-MacFarland isn't an internet troll, and who knows? Maybe he's not a poor designer either and maybe the race system is only a mistake.

[Xur]

However, while Gav Thorpe's comment was justifiable and he is a shitty designer anyway, that really has little to do with Pathfinder and SKR's bullshit defense of his system. See: for the race design list it's all on the same list. There isn't any way that 2 points on one list could have a different value from 2 points somewhere else, because there isn't anywhere else!

That's not SKR who used this defense on the Paizo's board, that's Stephen Radney-MacFarland. There's a huge difference between the two: SKR is a poor designer and an internet troll; Stephen Radney-MacFarland isn't an internet troll, and who knows? Maybe he's not a poor designer either and maybe the race system is only a mistake.

Well, I read some of SRM's responses on Paizo and RPG.net, and I am not so sure about him. Very much of him is just backpaddeling like "Man, it's just the first draft, ok?", which is really bad (fun fact: someone on RPG.net got the banhammer for saying out loud that maybe you should have put some effort even into the first draft). And stating that the ARG is for DMs to build "powerful options" doesn't really help either.

But, despite all that, I'm kinda curious about the second draft, should it ever be released. Last chance, so to say.

[K]

However, while Gav Thorpe's comment was justifiable and he is a shitty designer anyway, that really has little to do with Pathfinder and SKR's bullshit defense of his system. See: for the race design list it's all on the same list. There isn't any way that 2 points on one list could have a different value from 2 points somewhere else, because there isn't anywhere else!

That's not SKR who used this defense on the Paizo's board, that's Stephen Radney-MacFarland. There's a huge difference between the two: SKR is a poor designer and an internet troll; Stephen Radney-MacFarland isn't an internet troll, and who knows? Maybe he's not a poor designer either and maybe the race system is only a mistake.

Well, I read some of SRM's responses on Paizo and RPG.net, and I am not so sure about him. Very much of him is just backpaddeling like "Man, it's just the first draft, ok?", which is really bad (fun fact: someone on RPG.net got the banhammer for saying out loud that maybe you should have put some effort even into the first draft). And stating that the ARG is for DMs to build "powerful options" doesn't really help either.

But, despite all that, I'm kinda curious about the second draft, should it ever be released. Last chance, so to say.

We've seen enough SKR "first drafts" to have a fair idea about the level of quality we'll see in SKR's final drafts.

[hogarth]

We've seen enough SKR "first drafts" to have a fair idea about the level of quality we'll see in SKR's final drafts.

I have no idea why people keep blaming SKR specifically for this race system. As far as I can tell, he's just one of many developers contributing to it.

[ishy]

It is just like how everyone can recognize a shadzar post without reading his username.

In this case, people see a specific kind of failure and assume it is SKR.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Oh no... What if SKR has been cloned? Or worse, is contagious?

[Shadow Balls]

Oh no... What if SKR has been cloned? Or worse, is contagious?

How to treat the Herpaderpies:

Step 1: http://www.backgroundpictures.org/p/fire/fire_01.jpg
Step 2: http://cdn.edwardkhoo.com/wp-content/up ... losion.png
Step 3: http://eaw.heavengames.com/foc/review/o ... rdment.jpg
Step 4: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/i ... Planet.jpg
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit!

[A Man In Black]

Well, in any case, SRM's the one out front on this. It'll be interesting to see how he handles it.